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It's another key milestone in Hot Stove Season. Today is Non-Tender Saturday, also known as the quiet cousin of the July 31st trade deadline.

Teams have until midnight tonight to offer contracts to unsigned players on their respective 40-man rosters. Any player not offered a contract by his old team is granted free-agency. Some big names have been axed already. A few, like Jay Payton and Shawn Wooten, were expected. Others, like Mark Redman, are the kind of surprise that makes one cock an eyebrow.

Might the Blue Jays have any interest in the following?

Shawn Wooten (Angels)
Jason Johnson (Orioles)
Damian Moss (Orioles)
Randall Simon (Cubs)
Russell Branyan (Reds)
Ruben Mateo (Reds)
Reggie Taylor (Reds)
Danys Baez (Indians)
Carl Sadler (Indians)
Scott Elarton (Rockies)
Kit Pellow (Rockies)
Jay Payton (Rockies)
Nate Bland (Astros)
Jayson Duocher (Brewers)
Hector Almonte (Expos)
Orlando Hernandez (Expos)
Britt Reames (Expos)
Scott Strickland (Mets)
David Delucci (Yankees)
Karim Garcia (Yankees)
Jeremy Fikac (A's)
Frank Menechino (A's)
Mark Redman (A's)
Mike Lincoln (Pirates)
Gene Stechschulte (Cardinals)

No Blue Jays related news yet. Cliff Politte, after being designated for assignment this week, will almost certainly be a casualty. Tom Wilson might need to have his cell phone with him as well. Announcements will continue to happen throughout the night.
Non-Tender...Just like Grandma's Roast Beef | 79 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Ryan F. - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 07:29 PM EST (#14997) #
I'd look at Menechino...
_Andrew Edwards - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 07:29 PM EST (#14998) #
Some possible reclamation projects, e.g. Elarton, who'd be worth minor league deals.

Strickland could be interesting for the back of the bullpen.

Can Menechino play a decent shortstop?

And what price Redman...?
_Spicol - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 07:33 PM EST (#14999) #
JP should certainly be looking at Baez but the price might eat into his Shortstop Fund.
Lucas - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 07:51 PM EST (#15000) #
http://bbfl.scottlucas.com
Strickland will be out until midseason and probably won't return to normal effectiveness until 2005. Elbow surgery.

The Redman situation is odd, but I guess Beane took a shot at signing Redman, didn't like the terms, and cut him loose. Losing Mike Neu for that shot isn't too great a price to pay.

Menechino has 18 lifetime games at short. From the looks of his range factor (1.28), most of the games must've been as a late-inning/emergency replacement.

I've heard Elarton may resign with Colorado.
Lucas - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 08:24 PM EST (#15001) #
Chris Woodward signed. One year, $775k according to Rotoworld.
_matheond - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 08:55 PM EST (#15003) #
Presuming Elarton is recovered from his surgery(ies?), I would love to see the Jays pick him up. I remember his year in Houston, he seemed like he had potential to be a front of the rotation guy. Sadly, elbow injuries and a move to Colorado thwarted those predictions. Still, I think he would be an improvement over Towers, and, again if healthy, have higher upside than Lilly. This of course is based strictly on gut feeling, with no statistical data to back this up (just a couple of Heinekens, I'm afraid!)
_okbluejays - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 09:02 PM EST (#15004) #
Baez would be a nice addition, but I agree, likely too expensive. Orlando Hernandez, if he stays healthy, would be an interesting option for the 5th starter spot/bullpen duty.

Anybody remember Elarton's role in the proposed deal between the Jays and Houston that would have sent Clemens to the Astros? As I recall, the sticking point was that the Astros wouldn't include him, and Ash insisted on him. Anybody remember what the full deal would have been?
_R Billie - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 09:25 PM EST (#15005) #
I think the principles in the deal were Clemens for Elarton and Hidalgo (before his breakout year). That would have looked like a very nice trade for the Jays at the time but something about the deal fell through in the late going.

The A's traded a minor prospect for Redman in the hopes of signing him under their budget constraints. Florida was set to non-tender him in any case and they obviously didn't get a lot of other interest.

The Jays have done a good job of renewing players for not much more than they made the previous year. But it looks like they'll pass on that opportunity with Politte. I'm not sure if that's the right call as he'd likely cost less than a million and is probably in the neighbourhood of Lopez, Ligtenberg, and Speier in quality if you don't ask him to become the closer. And if you do non-tender him I hope his money goes towards another relief arm rather than an upgrade at short in Aurilia who may or may not be an upgrade in the long run. That just seems like a luxury spend.
_mathesond - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 09:30 PM EST (#15006) #
I seem to recall Houston's GM (was it Hunsicker then?) speaking about why the Clemens to Houston deal fell through. Basically, he said that Clemens wanted an expensive contract extension (something along the ridiculous line of $30M for one year, to increase the per annum value of his then-current contract), and that in the end Houston would be giving up so much in players (to Toronto) and money (to Roger), that they would not be able to field a competitve team.
_Rob - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 09:36 PM EST (#15007) #
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20031220&content_id=621526&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Hope that link works - it has the list of non-tenders on it.
(Sorry if someone else has already posted this.)
_Rob - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 09:38 PM EST (#15008) #
Oops, didn't see the list at the top.

Anyway, Menechino might work here in TO - depending on his arm at SS.
Does anyone know if he's played there before, and what results?
_Rob - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 09:43 PM EST (#15009) #
(Can you tell I have nothing better to do on a Saturday night?)

As I recall from Boston, Lou Merloni was a moderate shortstop -- he could be a cheap platoon with Woody, and he has a good range factor.
Any thoughts on Lou?
_Ben NS - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 09:51 PM EST (#15010) #
I'd like to see either Elarton or Damian Moss in a Jays uniform next year. Neither would be too pricey for the Torornto budget and they have both been effective in the major leagues...
_Duane G - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 10:01 PM EST (#15011) #
According to the Rockies story on mlb.com, Elarton has signed a 1 yr $475,000 minor league contract that becomes a major league contract when a roster spot opens up.
_nate - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 10:22 PM EST (#15012) #
menechino at short? man, that would suck ...
_R Billie - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 10:31 PM EST (#15013) #
Elarton might have been nice but I've always felt Moss was overrated.
_Spicol - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 10:44 PM EST (#15014) #
Boston was probably the team I was watching most closely today, hoping they'd non-tender BHK. Didn't happen.

Lou Merloni, cool name aside, doesn't offer much more than Dave Berg. Both are righthanded hitting, versatile guys with adequate bats but neither should spend any significant time at short. Remember a few years ago when Homer Bush was miscast as a shortstop for a spell? His throws had more arc to them than Noah. From what I've seen, and I fully admit it's only been a couple of games, Merloni's tosses are similarly biblical.

Taking the Berg/Merloni comparison a bit further:

Dave, Career: 270/333/376
Lou, Career: 270/332/380

I'd leave Merloni to sign a minor league deal with Boston. Like New York and Luis Sojo (now pronounced 'Miguel Cairo'), they can't seem to do without the guy. If JP wants to sign a shortstop, I hope he's a better defender than Woody.
_Spicol - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 10:46 PM EST (#15015) #
In other non-non-tender news, Freddy Garcia inked a one-year, $6.875MM deal with Seattle.
_albatross - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 10:58 PM EST (#15016) #
Wouldn't shock me to see El Duque sign a deal with the Yanks. An opportunity to reconnect with their recent past after so many other guys have left.
_Jonny German - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 11:51 PM EST (#15017) #
I'd like to see either Elarton or Damian Moss in a Jays uniform next year. Neither would be too pricey for the Torornto budget and they have both been effective in the major leagues...

Thumbs-down on Moss. His success in 2002 (and in 9 innings in 2001) came from an abnormally low hit rate. His BB/9 and K/BB rates were horrible. It is interesting that he was also successful in AAA due to a low hit rate, but I don't trust this kind of pitcher.
_steve - Saturday, December 20 2003 @ 11:57 PM EST (#15018) #
danny baez, from the save percentage, maybe he is like a cliff politte, a guy who does not like save situations. his numbers are like cliff politte 2002
_steve - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 12:15 AM EST (#15019) #
also, jason johnson is a very interesting pitcher with upside.
_R Billie - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 12:47 AM EST (#15020) #
Braden Looper was non-tendered and the Marlins also signed Benitez to a 1 year deal at $3.5 million.
_Spicol - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 12:51 AM EST (#15021) #
Here's the final list of non-tenders by position. There are 58 players in total.

Catchers - 5
Rod Barajas (Arizona), Michael Barrett (Cubs), Kit Pellow (Rockies), Ben Petrick (Tigers), Miguel Ojeda (Padres)

First Basemen – 3
Shawn Wooten (Angels), Randall Simon (Cubs), Todd Sears (Padres)

Second Basemen - 3
Damian Jackson (Red Sox), Frank Menechino (A's), Marlon Anderson (Rays)

Third Basemen - 4
Lou Merloni (Red Sox), Russell Branyan (Reds), Travis Chapman (Phillies), Jared Sandberg (Rays)

Shortstops - 1
Augie Ojeda (Twins)

Outfielders - 7
Gabe Kapler (Red Sox), Ruben Mateo (Reds), Reggie Taylor (Reds), Jay Payton (Rockies), David Delucci (Yankees), Karim Garcia (Yankees), Jason Tyner (Rangers)

Starting Pitchers - 6
Jason Johnson (Orioles), Damian Moss (Orioles), Andy Van Hekken (Tigers), Orlando Hernandez (Expos), Mark Redman (A's). Gerardo Garcia (Rays)

Relief Pitchers - 28
Edwin Almonte (Red Sox), Scott Sauerbeck (Red Sox), Jason Shiell (Red Sox), Scott Chiasson (Cubs), Danys Baez (Indians), Carl Sadler (Indians), Scott Elarton (Rockies), Armando Almanza (Marlins), Toby Borland (Marlins), Brader Looper (Marlins), Nate Bland (Astros), Kris Wilson (KC), Troy Brohawn (Dodgers), Alfredo Gonzalez (Dodgers), Derek Thompson (Dodgers), Jayson Durocher (Brewers), Hector Almonte (Expos), Britt Reames (Expos), Pedro Feliciano (Mets), Jeremy Hill (Mets), Scott Strickland (Mets), Jeremy Fikac (A's), Valerio De Los Santos (Phillies), Mike Lincoln (Pirates), Gene Stechschulte (Cardinals), Mike Matthews (Padres), Trever Miller (Blue Jays), Cliff Politte (Blue Jays)
_Simon - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 01:13 AM EST (#15022) #
I'd still like to get Redman. If for nothing else it gives us some insurance. However, to choose between a SS or a starter? Tell you the truth, I'd rather have a better rotation than SS. Woody hopefully can hold the fort.
_Cristian - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 01:48 AM EST (#15023) #
Does anyone know what happened with the Danys Baez situation? Didn't the Indians try some roster shenanigans to try to sign him back to a much cheaper contract than what he made this year? Did the Union file a grievance or did the Indians realize they didn't have a legal basis for what they did and just cut him loose?

Todd Sears is also an interesting player. He wouldn't help Toronto much but I remember he was the MVP of the Edmonton Trappers a while back. He batted cleanup for the Trappers and put up some nice numbers.
_Andrew Edwards - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 01:52 AM EST (#15024) #
Russ Branyan would be good if we had any use for him.

Damian Jackson might be a good pickup as a utility guy. He's got 241 games at short, so I assume he wouldn't completely embarass himself there.

Dusty must be heartbroken - no more Simon!

Pitching-wise, there's enough 'almost' talent in there for an Esteban Loiaza, if you're a team like the Devil Rays that can afford to see some awful pitching in order to find the good stuff.

Probably not any big upgrades there for the Jays, but underlines how little an excuse the Tigers and their ilk have to suck so badly. You can put together a half-decent "All Non-Tender Team".

Incidentally, this shows what JP was thinking when he thought to trade Hudson. We could make do at 2nd from this list.
Leigh - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 02:39 AM EST (#15025) #
Rotoworld says that the Jays non-tendered Trever Miller.
_Jeff G aka Toro - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 06:08 AM EST (#15026) #
Hijack: Merry Christmas to all !

1317100 Posted 12/21/2003 06:06 AM by Jeff Geauvreau aka T-north & Nestorfall:

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the great authors and readers here at the Box !

I am heading down to Toronto from the ONT/MAN Border for Christmas.

I will talk to you all in the New Year ! Jeff
Pistol - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 09:07 AM EST (#15027) #
The 58 players who were not tendered contracts by midnight ET Saturday, making them free agents free to negotiate with any team:

I told you it wouldn't be close to 100!
_Brad - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 12:02 PM EST (#15028) #
Looking for any insight on news for a 1st baseman for the Angels. There isn't an option on the roster or in the high minors other than the possibility of moving Erstad (perhaps after signing Payton).
L.A. papers report they are interested in Lee (my favorite option), Simon, and/or Palmeiro. Is there any news on the subject from outside of SoCal? Thanks!
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 12:14 PM EST (#15029) #
http://economics.about.com
Dec. 20 - MLB - List of 58 Non-Tenders.

Hijack Central - Dec. 19. Mike Moffatt writes:

"I wouldn't be surprised if there were 2 guys per team non-tendered, adding about 60 guys to the free agent pool."

I so very rarely have such an accurate prediction, so I feel the need to gloat. Thank you for your co-operation.

Cheers,

Mike
_Rob - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 01:19 PM EST (#15030) #
If the Jays don't sign Miller, who will be the other lefty in the pen to help out Kershner?
Thomas - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 01:30 PM EST (#15031) #
So who is going to be the second lefty in the pen next year? I guess Chen has to be the leading candidate unless the Jays are able to resign Miller cheaply.
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 01:35 PM EST (#15032) #
http://economics.about.com
If the Jays don't sign Miller, who will be the other lefty in the pen to help out Kershner?

I'm not sure. You'd guess that they'd have at least a couple lefties, though I'd be okay with an all-righty bullpen.

Bruce Chen is a possibility. I guess they'll either resign Miller or find someone else.

Cheers,

Mike
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 01:47 PM EST (#15033) #
http://economics.about.com
Looks like someone beat me to the punch. :)

Cheers,

Mike
_Rob - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 02:18 PM EST (#15034) #
I'm not sure...did Chen sign a minor-league deal and if so, is he on the 40-man?
Lucas - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 02:41 PM EST (#15035) #
Yes, and no.
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 02:42 PM EST (#15036) #
http://economics.about.com
I'm not sure...did Chen sign a minor-league deal

Yes.

and if so, is he on the 40-man?

No.

I'm sure he'll been given a shot to make the big club during spring training, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if he starts the season in Syracuse as a starter and is called up if one of the big league starters gets injured or stinks the place up.

As far as the 40-man roster goes, the pitchers on it can be divided into five camps:

Toronto Starters
Batista (R)
Halladay (R)
Hentgen (R)
Lilly (L)
Towers (R)

Toronto Relievers
Kershner (L)
Ligtenberg (R)
Lopez (R)
Speier (R)
Walker (R)

Rule 5 Picks
Haines (R)

Likely To Start Season In Minors
Arnold (R)
Chulk (R)
Hanson (R)
Harper (R)
McGowan (R)
Rosario (R)

Rehabbing Pitchers
File (R)
J. Miller (R)

Trever Miller was on the 40-man roster, so if he doesn't come back some other lefty pitcher can take his place.

Cheers,

Mike
_Geoff - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 02:58 PM EST (#15037) #
Any thoughts on Sauerbeck?
_Eric C - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 03:06 PM EST (#15038) #
Scott Sauerbeck was non-tendered by Boston.

He seems like the ideal guy to replace Trever Miller as the LOOGY on the staff. In the last 3 years Sauerbeck is .203/.293/.309 against lefties, versus .259/.385/.372 against righties. He makes tons of appearances, much like Miller did last season, but pitches to more batters. The major difference between him and Miller is than he strikes out a lot of hitters. He's got a career K/9 of 9.3, Miller's K/9 last season was 7.5, and for his career 6.2.

He did do poorly last season after the trade with Boston, but that was just 16.7 innings of work, in his first stint as an American Leaguer, and in Fenway. I think he can post an ERA at least under 4, probably better, and strikeout a batter an inning.

Sauerbeck only made 1.6 million last season, and so if we can sign him for that amount, it would a good deal.
_Dr B - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 03:29 PM EST (#15039) #
I hope this isn't true about Miller. Why would you non-tender him? He was good last year. Sure he didn't dominate lefties but was decent (750 OPS), but he *did* dominate righties (656 OPS) and had good K rates (44 K in 52IP). He walked 28 in that span which is so-so especially for a short outing reliever, but overall he was a good pitcher and would probably have come cheap this year. They're not going to save any money by non-tendering him so the only thing they gain is a roster spot and they're going to have to spend a lot more money to do better than him.
_Robbie Goldberg - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 03:51 PM EST (#15040) #
The four guys on this list that I think J.P. may very well explore are:
1) Braden Looper
2) Scott Strickland (Righty, 27, career 3.28 ERA --- I like....)
3) Scott Sauerbeck
4) Danys Baez

Personally, I like Strickland best on this list. He's relatively young (which is not too much of a consideration in the bullpen anyways), but does have a very good ERA and has closed in the past. Sauerbeck might be acceptable as a lefy in the pen, but I don't see how he's much of an improvement, if at all, over Miller. I also really like Baez (at least moreso than Looper) and think he would be acceptable this year with the potential for future excellence, but I don't know if J.P. would like a guy like him --- actually, Baez reminds a lot of Escobar (a guy who has shifted between the rotation and the pen and hasn't managed to harness his incredible talent.) Looper and Baez might be a little pricey though...
_Ryan - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 03:51 PM EST (#15041) #
Let's not go overboard here. Miller was a non-roster invitee last spring, and there are always similar guys floating around who could be signed to a cheap contract or claimed off waivers (like Kershner was in 2002). It's still possible Miller could come back in 2004 at the league minimum, and if he doesn't, the Jays will likely sign one or two other lefties to minor league deals and have them battle for the final roster spot along with Bruce Chen.
_Ryan - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 03:54 PM EST (#15042) #
Personally, I like Strickland best on this list. He's relatively young (which is not too much of a consideration in the bullpen anyways), but does have a very good ERA and has closed in the past.

Strickland had Tommy John surgery and is going to miss a significant chunk of 2004.
_Robbie Goldberg - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 05:08 PM EST (#15043) #
#132046 Posted 12/21/2003 03:54 PM by Ryan:
Strickland had Tommy John surgery and is going to miss a significant chunk of 2004.
---------------------
My bad --- didn't realize that...
...then I like Baez ;)
Mike Green - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 06:45 PM EST (#15044) #
Redman signed with Oakland for about $12 million over 3 years.
_Ryan01 - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 07:24 PM EST (#15045) #
Scott Schoeneweis was non-tendered by the White Sox. He can dominate lefties pretty well. He'll probably be a little bit pricier than Miller but is definitely a step up.

Redman signed with Oakland for about $12 million over 3 years

I can almost hear the "Rios for Harden" rumours spinning around in Gammon's head.
_Geoff - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 07:42 PM EST (#15046) #
If I'm J.P. I sign Menechino to platoon with O-Dog, move Berg over to backup Woody and sign either Schoenweis, Sauerbeck or re-gin T-Mil (in that order of LOOGY preference) - then I call it a successful offseason (and work of signing Doc longterm)
_27pif - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 07:52 PM EST (#15047) #
Completely disagree with the last comment. Berg is not a major league shortstop anymore defensivley, and the guy they get to help Woddy will have to be able to plat defense. Schoenweis won't bhe any more effective against lefties than Miller was, plus he gave the Angels a hard time about not starting. Saurbeck showed nothing after the trade...the Jays would be better off resigning Miller.
_Geoff - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 08:03 PM EST (#15048) #
Completely disagree with that disagreement.

Berg was a major league average defensive shortstop in 2002 both in terms of fielding percentage and range factor - he wasn't given an opportunity in 2004 simply becuase we had Brodick.

Schoenweis consistently gets out lefties and has for the last three years. Obviously if he wants to start we won't sign him but if we can sign him he'd be a much better fit than Miller

Sauerbeck has a history of dominating lefties too, though his best year was 2002 and he isn't as consistent as Schoenweis...but he is still an upgrade on Trever.
_Ryan01 - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 08:12 PM EST (#15049) #
Why wouldn't Schoeneweis be better against lefties? His numbers say he's vastly superior to Miller against lefties and has a better track record of major league experience.

Schoeneweis has held lefties to .212/.276/.282 (AVG/OBP/SLG) over the last three years. Trever Miller last year: .226/.325/.425

Getting lefties out is a very important thing when you're a LOOGY. Maybe the price difference between Miller and Schoeneweis won't be worth it but talent-wise Schoeneweis is better.
_Jonny German - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 08:18 PM EST (#15050) #
Besides signing Redman, the A's have acquired Damian Miller and $800K from the Cubs for a PTBNL (or simply in exchange for Michael Barrett, depending on which source you look at). It's interesting to see Beane's offseason plan starting to fill out and make sense:

In Out
Mark Kotsay Terrence Long
Mark Redman Ted Lilly
Arthur Rhodes Keith Foulke
Bobby Kielty Chris Singleton
Chris Hammond Mike Neu
$___ w/ Hammond John Halama
Damian Miller Ramon Hernandez
$800K Miguel Tejada
4 draft picks Jose Guillen

Would they be better off in 2004 with Foulke & Tejada? Sure. But considering his cash limitations, I'd say Beane's done quite well. Kotsay, Kielty, and Hammond are significant upgrades over Long, Singleton, and Neu. To hear Gitz talk, Redman's gotta be an upgrade over Lilly. And no, Miller is not a big drop-off from Hernandez. Click those links and look at their pre-2003 numbers.
_Spicol - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 08:21 PM EST (#15051) #
Damian Jackson might be a good pickup as a utility guy. He's got 241 games at short, so I assume he wouldn't completely embarass himself there.

He's an option. Jackson is a horrible hitter, but he does fit the definition of an option.

Now that I look for other alternatives, I see that the list of major league experienced shortstop "options" is much smaller than one would have figured for this time of year. We're down to this:

Jackson, Deivi Cruz, Shane Halter, Denny Hocking, Chris Gomez, Augie Ojeda, Rey Ordonez, Tony Womack, Royce Clayton, Pat Meares and Rich Aurilla. Pokey Reese or Tony Batista might possibly move back to SS. It's a scrap heap. I'm starting to like Jorge Sequea's chances.

Andy Fox is off the market but there's always the 6-year minor league free agents - Ramon Castro is worth an NRI. Jose Nieves?
_Jonny German - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 08:40 PM EST (#15052) #
You've forgotten Jose Hernandez...

With apologies to Mike D I'd consider him, along with Aurilia and Gomez. But I don't like any of those 3 options better than Sequea... and Danys Baez.
_okbluejays - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 09:02 PM EST (#15053) #
I've been very interested with what Oakland has done this offseason as well. I've been a bit surprised with the people they've been bringing in. It seems like they're replacing the offense that they've lost by bringing in superior defensive players (sure, Kielty is not a superior defensive player). I'm not sure what Bill James would say about this - though I suppose a run saved is = to a run scored. Still, unless Chavez breaks through with a monstrous year, and Durazo and Kielty put together full seasons that reflect the faith that stat-heads put in them I think they could have a tough time scoring runs. Luckily, they have a great starting rotation, and some nice help on the way (full year of Harden plus Blanton one day), but I think they'll have a tougher year making the playoffs than they did last year. If Seattle had signed Tejada I might have picked them easy (especially if they put Soriano into the rotation). And I think the Angels will be much improved - though they were a long way back last year.

I'm just wondering if I need to re-evaluate what Beane's philosophy is given his moves this offseason. Simply put, I do not think Miller and Kotsay are "Beane" players - but that just reflects my opinion on what I thought he was doing. Maybe I was wrong all along. Gillick always said that pitching and defence wins championships - maybe that's been Beane's philosophy all along (with a sprinkling of OBP as well). Perhaps that's part of the reason he's sticking with Chavez (gold glove defense) and let tejada and giambi walk. Actually, now I think I'm making too much out of too few moves, but instead of deleting what I've written, I'll leave it there for discussion.

As memory serves, he did offer Giambi a huge package, so that doesn't fit in with what I was trying to say.
_Buddy - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 09:19 PM EST (#15054) #
Ramon Castro (SS) is no longer available - Oak signed him.
For an above .500 team, a run saved > a run earned (and vice versa).
Beane's plan is to acquire what's undervalued. Currently, that's defense (for him).
Supposedly, Schoeneweis wants to start.
_Rob - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 09:21 PM EST (#15055) #
I'm going to sound like a newb but what does LOOGY stand for?
_Spicol - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 09:23 PM EST (#15056) #
Lefthanded-One-Out-Guy
_Akira - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 09:24 PM EST (#15057) #
LOOGY stands for Lefty One Out Guy....it took me awhile to find out about that too!
_Akira - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 09:30 PM EST (#15058) #
The SS on the market are looking pretty lame, and Aurilia looks like he might sign on with Colorado...is there any possibility of trading for a SS? I know we have Hill and Adams in the system, but from what i've read, Adams projects as a 2B and Hill as a future 3B, so even if we got a young SS, i don't know that he'd block any of our own prospects from getting to the majors. What teams might be looking to unload a young SS for some outfield help?
_Rob - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 09:56 PM EST (#15059) #
Maybe the Mets would like to trade Jose Reyes?
With Little Matsui signing, Reyes has lost his SS job, and from what I saw on FOX's Saturday games, he was ok (better than Woodward).

Then again, they do have Cameron and Floyd in the OF, but maybe they'd like a young 4th outfielder.

Any thoughts on a Toronto OF for Reyes?
_Rudy - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 10:04 PM EST (#15060) #
I would think the Jays would have to part with Rios for Reyes at the very least. I'm not so sure that would be enough to get it done though.
_Andrew Edwards - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 10:23 PM EST (#15061) #
Beane's plan is to acquire what's undervalued. Currently, that's defense (for him).

Totally agree. My suspicion is that the A's have figured out a way to measure defence that really works.

To my mind, the problem with acquiring defensive players was that they tended to be overvalued or mis-valued because nobody had any idea how to measure defence. If you could be sure that it would save you a run, a saved run is probably better than a scored run. But you need to be able to measure it to be sure you'll save it.

Last year, the A's had the best defensive efficiency in the league. They might even be better next year. So clearly they're doing something right.

Something JP said sticks in my head. He said that between hitting, pitching, and defence, if he could have one it would be hitting, but if he could have two it would be pitching and defence.

I think the Beane plan is that he built an offence a few years ago, because the system was relatively weak and that was all he could get together. Now that they've got some good pitchers locked in, he's prioritizing defence. Don't be surprised if the Jays look the same in 3 or 4 years.

At the maximum, there's probably a real bona fide long-term plan for how to run a small-to-mid-budget baseball team.

1) Take over crappy team
2) Sign cheap, slow, high-OBP hitters (named Giambi, if possible)
3) Draft great pitchers, teach them well, look after their arms
4) As pitchers mature, lock them in for 4 or 5 years. Take very, very good care of their arms
5) Transition from slow, high-OBP guys to great defensive guys, as the pitchers become the lynchpin to the team.
6) Not sure yet. Either (a) lose the pitchers to free agency, go to #2 or (b) be so good at drafting and developping pitchers that there's a constant supply to replace the ones that leave. And by the way, the ones that leave never come back to haunt you, because they perform less well in front of Yankee defence than in front of your defence.
_Young - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 10:29 PM EST (#15062) #
Oakland?

I think it is unfair to add Tejada to what the A's have done in the offseason. They weren't trying to resign him afterall.

But even if you take that into account, they replaced a very good catcher in Hernandez who also called a good game for an equally good hitting catcher in Miller (no idea on his game calling though). Kotsay was brought in to replace Terrence Long, and that has to be a plus, because Long is a LF defensive specialist (doing my best to highlight his talents). Plus they brought in Kielty, who is an OBP machine, which fits into the Moneyball philosophy perfectly.

Finally, with their pitching, for what Foulke got paid annually, they now have instead Rhodes (3), Hammond (2) and Redmond (2). Maybe this is a bad thing, but diversifying your injury risk over 3 players sounds like a good plan on a limited budget (cough, yankees...)

So why is their offense worse than last year? I guess maybe losing a former MVP does hurt, but it is not like they signed Neifi Perez to replace Tejada and later on whine about having no money.

On Toronto's side, I'm surprised they non-tendered T.Miller, I thought he was only eligibile for a minor raise from his minimum contract last year? I'm sure this means that JP likes a better LOOGY who has been non-tendered, but wouldn't said better LOOGY cost more than the minimum?

And what are the rules for non-tendering? Are they different from not offering FAs arbitration? I had thought the A's had non-tendered Redman, but now they can resign him?
robertdudek - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 10:30 PM EST (#15063) #
You know,

Alex Rios is starting to scare me. In a good way, I mean. What he's doing in Puerto Rico suggests he may become one of the best players of his generation. Right now, I wouldn't trade Rios for anyone in baseball. Not until I have an idea of how good he's going to be.
_sweat - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 11:13 PM EST (#15064) #
I wouldn't trade him either.
_Robbie Goldberg - Sunday, December 21 2003 @ 11:16 PM EST (#15065) #
Interestingly enough, I noticed that Miguel Negron also plays on the same team as Rios. He's hitting .295, so I guess that ain't too bad...I know he was injured a lot this year, but he's still quite young and I assume a lot of talent as well...
_Brad - Monday, December 22 2003 @ 12:03 AM EST (#15066) #
I watched Schoeneweis pitch often for 4+ seasons in Anaheim and liked him as a starter. He can pitch 200+ innings and win 12-15 games for a good team. He was the Angels' union rep during tough times and was well-liked in the clubhouse.
However, he never wanted to pitch in relief and honestly does not have the stuff to do so, other than long-relief. I don't have the stats to prove it, but I saw him pitch out of the pen quite often when he got lefties out in non-stress situations but was rarely used when the game was on the line. Several times early in 2003 he left men on base only to have the Angels tough short men (Rodriguez, Donnelly, Percival) bail him out. He seems to take a couple of innings to get into rhythm. Not ideal for a LOOGY except to get lefties out when nothing is at stake.
_Spicol - Monday, December 22 2003 @ 12:45 AM EST (#15067) #
All Stats Below are Opp.AVG/OBP/SLG for 2001-2003. All of these pitchers are Left-Handed.

Sauerbeck vs. RHB: 259/385/372, 461 PA
Sauerbeck vs. LHB: 203/293/309, 330 PA

Schoeneweis vs. RHB: 296/366/457, 1190 PA
Schoeneweis vs. LHB: 212/276/282, 486 PA

Nate Bland vs. RHB: 303/442/697, 42 PA
Nate Bland vs. LHB: 273/321/295, 49 PA (Small Sample Size Alert)

Valerio De Los Santos vs. RHB: 218/312/383, 309 PA
Valerio De Los Santos vs. LHB: 242/315/331, 140 PA

Mike Matthews vs. RHB: 268/359/439, 532 PA
Mike Matthews vs. LHB: 213/283/316, 303 PA

Any of the above would be an acceptable replacement for Trever Miller. Alternatively, an under the radar non-roster invitee, which Miller was last spring, would be cheaper and perhaps as effective. Don't be surprised if two or three LHP that you've never heard of get signed and duke it out in the spring.
_okbluejays - Monday, December 22 2003 @ 12:54 AM EST (#15068) #
I like Rios, but he's tradeable. I'd deal him for a top SP prospect right now, and I suppose JP would too. Yes, he looks good, but OF is still an area of strength for us, and I subscribe to the philosophy that "you can never have enough good pitching" - particularly when it is young, cheap, and can be controlled for 5+ years.

In no particular order, I'd deal him for: Blanton, Soriano, Harden, Peavy, Greinke... and I'd consider him for: Jenks, Wainwright, Williams, Foppert, Burnett, Vanbenschoten, Miller, Jackson, Santana, and Tsao.

I think an opposing GM would have an easier time prying Rios loose than McGowan.
_R Billie - Monday, December 22 2003 @ 01:11 AM EST (#15069) #
Those are all very fine pitchers but I wouldn't deal Rios for any of them though I might think about it with Peavy only because he appears to have made it through a couple of seasons in good health.
_Mick - Monday, December 22 2003 @ 02:27 AM EST (#15070) #
replaced a very good catcher in Hernandez who also called a good game for an equally good hitting catcher in Miller

Calling them "equally good hitting" is fair. Calling them "good hitting" at all is probably a bit of a reach.

Miller's OPS+ last year was 78. His career high is 104 and his career total is 91.

Hernandez's OPS+ last year was 112, which was by far his career high, a career with a total OPS+ of 90.

In fact, Hernandez is #1 in Miller's listed similar players on BaseballReference.com while Miller is #2 in Hernandez's list. Other guys on those lists are Bill Haselman, Brook Fordyce and Bengie Molina, so I think what you're getting in Miller is a solid backup who can start.

The only key difference is that Miller is 34 and Hernandez is 27. So I think the A's are looking at a serious dropoff.
_Jonny German - Monday, December 22 2003 @ 07:41 AM EST (#15071) #
Damian Miller 2000: .275 / .347 / .441 in 324 AB
Damian Miller 2001: .271 / .337 / .424 in 380 AB
Damian Miller 2002: .249 / .340 / .434 in 297 AB

That is a good hitting catcher. CATCHER. Not first baseman. Catcher. The question is whether or not his .233 / .310 / .369 line this year was an aberration or a washed-up 33 year-old.

Hernandez on the other hand has the opposite question: was his .273 / .331 / .458 line this year an aberration or a one-time career-year out of a 27 year old? His previous best season went .254 / .316 / .408 in 2001 (I'm ignoring 1999 because it was only 136 AB).
_S.K. - Monday, December 22 2003 @ 08:58 AM EST (#15072) #
Jonny - abberration and one-time career year are not the only options for a 27-year old coming off his best season. There's also a possibility that it is his new level of production, a particularly large possibility when it is a guy like Hernandez who was expected to hit like this all along.
_Jonny German - Monday, December 22 2003 @ 09:46 AM EST (#15073) #
You're right S.K., my bad. I meant to say more or less what you said.
_Jordan - Monday, December 22 2003 @ 10:08 AM EST (#15074) #
Two interesting names, conditional on their recovery from arm troubles, are RHP Jayson Durocher and LHP Armando Almanza. I don't know what their status is, but if they're close to healthy, they would be excellent bullpen candidates.

Scott Chiasson's name stands out on that list as well. You may remember him as a Rule 5 pick by the Cubs from Oakland's roster a few years ago. The A's worked out a deal that allowed the Cubs to keep Chiasson; Oakland picked up a minor-league third baseman by the name of Eric Hinske.
_Spicol - Monday, December 22 2003 @ 08:35 PM EST (#15075) #
Unfortunately, Almanza was picked up today by the Braves.

And contrary to what somebody reported earlier, Schoeneweis was tendered a contract Saturday, so he's not an option for the Jays.
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