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Impartial national columnist and Twins fan Aaron Gleeman offers an "outsider's" perspective of the AL East power struggle and says the division could boast four of the league's best "five or six" teams if the Orioles add two more superstars.

If my team, the Minnesota Twins, were in the AL East, I think the prospect of dealing with those four teams over the next several seasons would be even more depressing than the weather here in Minnesota. There's a very real chance that either Toronto or Baltimore could win over 90 games next season and not even come particularly close to the playoffs, let alone first-place.

Aaron feels bad about our local nine being resigned to a third-place battle. Some impatient Jays fans feel the same way, but I am grateful every day just to have a contending team. I suggest that everyone save their sympathy for the Devil Rays.
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_S.K. - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 12:55 PM EST (#82712) #
A nice article by Aaron. His blog is quickly establishing itself as the first place I visit everyday after the Box.
_Blue in SK - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 01:02 PM EST (#82713) #
I wouldn't trade our spot in the AL East for anything. Winning against the best brings immense pleasure and when we win the WS in a couple of years, we can all reflect upon the giants that fell before us.
_Robbie - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 01:13 PM EST (#82714) #
It's sad but true. I too am glad we are at least competetive, but I really hope Paul Godfrey does something to allow the Jays to either switch divisions or somehow expand the playoff format.
_Jim Acker - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 01:27 PM EST (#82715) #
"I really hope Paul Godfrey does something to allow the Jays to either switch divisions or somehow expand the playoff format."

WHY??? Why would not want the Jays to play the two most storied clubs in basebal? Why would not want to relish the chance of the small budgeted Jays beating these two giants? Why would you want the Jays to throw in the towel, and not take on the best competitition that's out there?

Beating the Yanks and Sox is a huge challenge, and we shouldn't want anything else but that.

"Are we going to fight, or did we come dressed up for nothing?"
_Cristian - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 01:40 PM EST (#82716) #
I highly doubt that Toronto would ever switch divisions. I do think that Jays management should push for a balanced schedule. The fall from grace of the AL West makes this even more important. The AL East will always be tough. I can't remember the last time every team in a division improved as much as the AL East teams have done. From New York to Tampa, every team will be much better.
_Tom - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 01:41 PM EST (#82717) #
http://www.elguaposghost.blogspot.com
If the Jays, O's, Sox and MFY beat up on one another, it is possible that Ana or Seattle sneak in as the W.C. It is also possible that if your Jays get lucky and take the season series from the Sox or MFY, they could end up the W.C.
_StoneDog - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 01:57 PM EST (#82718) #
I would rather beat the best than sneak in the back door. As 'Blue in SK' says, it's that much more satisfying. Plus, as a longtime Cubs fan, it is part of my nature to root for the underdog.
_Paul Z. - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:16 PM EST (#82719) #
As baseball fans, we can look at a 90-95 win season with no playoffs as fairly successful. But the doorknob sports fans in this country, and in Toronto in particular have a very different, very simplistic measure of success that - as Aaron pointed out (from just reading the excerpt above) - the Jays will have a difficult time acheiving in the next couple of years: Playoffs.

Most hockey-first sports fans in this part of the world don't seem to realize that when it comes to baseball, half as many teams get to the playoffs, which means you need to be twice a good (and twice as lucky) to even get to the post-season. But these people who see their Leafs as good enough as long as they get to the playoffs - whether with 112 points or with 75 points - will not have their imagination captured by the Jays until they make the playoffs.

From a financial point-of-view, the Jays should be lobbying to get their butts into the easiest division, not staying in the hardest. It may take some shine and satisfaction off the playoff run when the Yankees and/or Sox win five or six more games, but the playoffs will put people in seats and dollars into Ted's pockets. I know it probably won't happen, but a division change would be great for this team.

Cheers,
Paul
_Ken - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:16 PM EST (#82720) #
I don't think the Jays will be able to switch divisions, at least not in the near future. Godfey should attempt to pressure mlb into creating a more balanced schedule, or to create another wildcard, I have no idea which is more plausible.

On the other hand, the Sox and Yankees are most probably good for revenue and attendence figures.
_Ken - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:18 PM EST (#82721) #
I don't think the Jays will be able to switch divisions, at least not in the near future. Godfey should attempt to pressure mlb into creating a more balanced schedule, or to create another wildcard, I have no idea which is more plausible.

On the other hand, the Sox and Yankees are most probably good for revenue and attendence figures.
Pepper Moffatt - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:21 PM EST (#82722) #
http://economics.about.com
A more realistic plan would be to lobby that the Orioles, Blue Jays, and Devil Rays be given a portion of the luxury tax funds that will be paid out by the Yankees and Red Sox. It'd probably only be an extra $5 million or so, but that could really help the club.

If MLB ever expands to 32 teams, I'd love to see the Expos move to the AL, creating an AL Northeast division of Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, and Cleveland. Not going to happen, though.

It'd be doubly great if one of those expansion teams (the Knights) were put in the AL and placed in Northern New Jersey. A Yankees/Red Sox/Knights/Orioles division would be a lot of fun.

Mike
_Ryan Day - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:24 PM EST (#82723) #
I'm opposed, on principle, to switching division. The fan in me, though, would love to see the Jays beating up on the Tigers & Indians every year.

I do like the idea for playoff expansion I heard bandied about last year: Add a second wild-card, and have the two wild-card teams face each other in a one-game playoff.

At the very least, MLB has to realize that the Wildcard is incompatible with unbalanced schedules and inter-league play.
_Robbie - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:25 PM EST (#82724) #
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/writers/tom_verducci/12/16/insider/index.html
At least one national baseball columnist thinks the Jays can make the Wild Card (albeit with the aquisition of Aurilia). In his column evaluating the Winners and Losers of the winter meetings, Tom Verducci said the Jays were winners and wrote:
Winners:
Blue Jays. Miguel Batista (lowest ERA of any free-agent pitcher), Ted Lilly and Pat Hentgen fortify the rotation at low costs. If it somehow can snag free-agent shortstop Rich Aurilia, Toronto will become a legit wild-card contender. "The Blue Jays have made better moves -- considering their resources -- than anybody else," said one AL GM.

(click on my name for the link)
Pistol - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:25 PM EST (#82725) #
Somehow I think if the Jays had been put in the AL Central several years ago there wouldn't be any clamoring to have them moved to the AL East so they could play the best teams.

As I said a couple months ago, the Jays would be more likely to win the World Series if they were in the playoffs than they are to qualify for the playoffs.

You have to deal with what you're given, but let's be realistic, no Jans fan would turn down the Jays moving to the AL Central. It would greatly improve their playoff chances, which in turn would help their WS chances.

That's not to say they can't do it as is, but it'd be easier in the AL Central.
_SportsmanTO - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:34 PM EST (#82726) #
I wouldn't want to see the Jays switch divisions. There are a couple reasons as to why I don't want to see that happen.

1) The Jays have more rivalries in the East. (Boston, NYY, Baltimore) compared to their former rivals who have gone through tough times in the last couple years in the Central. (Detroit, Cleveland, KC) Yes Cleveland did have a few very good years but for the most part they've been sucky and we've yet to see if KC was a flash in the pan. (tho I'm banking on them to contend big time this upcoming season)

2) Competition, I just don't like the idea of winning out in a relatively easy division thus negating the chance for great playoff runs. The Jays have always had to work hard to get into the playoffs throughout their history why change things now just because the division is now the hardest in all of baseball?

As for the idea of a balanced schedule i'm all for that but I DON'T want to see another Wild Card. I'm old school and I don't particularly like the Wild Card as it is so it would really irk me to see the playoffs dilluted more with an extra round. Tho it was nice seeing the Wild Card Marlins beating those Damn Yankees!

I think people will start coming to games again if the Jays are in the hunt in September and October and if results start being routine for this club maybe they'll become the darlings of the city again. I just hope they never regain the moniker of the Blow Jays.

Now a question, I asked this in my other haunt but no one really answered me. So maybe you guys will, Is this the toughest and most talented division in MLB history over the last 25 yrs? Although the season hasn't started I have to believe that it will shake down that way.
_SportsmanTO - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:37 PM EST (#82727) #
Pistol said:
"no Jays fan would turn down the Jays moving to the AL Central."

LOL wow I contradicted you right in the next post!
_Rich - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:46 PM EST (#82728) #
I'm sure I'm not the only who would rather buy Sox or Yankees tickets than Tigers or Royals tickets. Both Boston and New York are at the apex of the success cycle, and while deep pockets certainly helps, their clubs aren't exactly young.

I think JP has the team well primed to compete with both of them over the next few years, especially if guys like Arnold, McGowan, and Bush can step up at the big league level.
_Jim Acker - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:48 PM EST (#82729) #
Why on earth would any baseball fan not want to see their favourite team play the Yanks and Sox 19 times in a season, and kick their ass?
Stop being such pussies!

And who cares about fair-weather fans being interested? They're the people who sit behind you at games and drive you nuts because they know nothing about the game.
Pepper Moffatt - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 02:48 PM EST (#82730) #
http://economics.about.com
So maybe you guys will, Is this the toughest and most talented division in MLB history over the last 25 yrs?

I'm not sure how you'd measure how "tough" a division is. Maybe by how many games above .500 it finished?

Since 1980, I can think of a few tough divisions:

1982 AL East. Milwaukee won with 95 games, but the worst team went 78-84, which is pretty tough to do in a six team division.

1991 AL West. Every team finishes at .500 or better, with the last place Angels going 81-81.

2001 AL West. Seattle wins 116 and Oakland wins 102. Texas finishes in last at 73-89. Angels finish at 75-87 with a team that would win the World Series next year.

2002 AL West. Three teams win over 90 games, Oakland wins 103.

1987 NL East. Three teams above 90 games, 2 teams at 80-82, and the last place Cubs go 76-85 but Dawson wins MVP.

1993 NL West. Braves win 104, Giants 103. Houston and the Dodgers are respectable, the rest of the division not so much.

2003 NL East. Three legitimate World Series caliber teams, fourth team (Expos) go 83-79. Mets pay a ton of money, win 66 games.

Those are the only ones that come to mind, though I'm probably missing a couple.

I think the 2001-2002 AL West was better than the 2004 AL East will be, simply because they couldn't beat up on a pansy like the D-Rays.

The division looks like it will be like the 2003 NL East but only better. The D-Rays and Mets are about equal, the Expos are probably a bit better than the Orioles, but Toronto, Boston, and New York are better than Philly, the Marlins, and the Braves respectively.

Mike
_Greg Os Fan - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 03:00 PM EST (#82731) #
Is this the toughest and most talented division in MLB history over the last 25 yrs?

The AL West of the season before last was a bear. Three excellent teams in a dog-fight, and the 4th place team had that ARod guy.
Craig B - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 03:11 PM EST (#82732) #
Beating the Yanks and Sox is a huge challenge, and we shouldn't want anything else but that.

RIGHT ON.

Why do I love having the team in the AL East? Because it's not enough for the Blue Jays to win. The Yankees and Red Sox *must* also lose (and also the Tigers and Orioles, but that's beside the point). Plus, I want to be up against historically great franchises like Baltimore and New York and Boston, rather than blah like the White Sox, Indians, Twins and Royals.

the Jays would be more likely to win the World Series if they were in the playoffs than they are to qualify for the playoffs

This applies for a lot of teams that aren't quite elite teams yet. I don't think it means anything other than Toronto's in a tough division.

I'd love to see the Expos move to the AL, creating an AL Northeast division of Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, and Cleveland. Not going to happen, though.

Yuck! Why would you want your two favourite teams in the same league and division, Mike? Plus, Cleveland!?

A more realistic plan would be to lobby that the Orioles, Blue Jays, and Devil Rays be given a portion of the luxury tax funds that will be paid out by the Yankees and Red Sox

This makes less than no sense. I'm hardly against revenue sharing, but I can't think of a single business reason why shared revenues should be parcelled out geographically.

We forget all too quickly that ten years ago, Toronto was pretty much the financial giant in MLB. I didn't see anyone complaining how unfair it was then that the Jays had more resources, or asking that their extra revenue be parcelled out to their division rivals.

Godfey should attempt to pressure mlb into creating a more balanced schedule, or to create another wildcard, I have no idea which is more plausible.

Both of these, I think, would be good ideas for the Jays. Personally, I prefer meeting the BoSox and Yanks 19 times a year, but it's not fair with a Wild Card in place to have a badly unbalanced schedule.
_Cristian - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 03:20 PM EST (#82733) #
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031216/BLAIR16/TPSports/Baseball
I apologize if someone has already posted a link to this, but Jeff Blair's new article (COMN) has some more amusing Blue Jay tidbits.

The mechanics of this market have pleasantly given him the chance to mull over a run at free-agent shortstop Rich Aurilia -- a move he should not hesitate to make, since Aurilia is one of the quality people in the game and a better clutch defensive player than Chris Woodward.

I'm not interested in bringing in quality people. I'd rather have quality ballplayers. I'd rather have the Jays sign Crazy Carl and his wacky beliefs, if only he was a good SS. Of course getting quality ballplayers who happen to be quality people is preferable but I don't see Aurilia as a quality ballplayer now and especially not for the next three years.

I cringe when I see clutch but here he uses it to describe Aurilia's defence. I'm a stathead novice so I'll defer to others but is there such thing as 'clutch defence'?

Ricciardi said: "The way I look at it, if you put us up against everybody in the division player by player, we match up well with everybody but, maybe, Boston.

Ooooh...take that Yankees!

More JP: "I'm not concerned with Tejada. If the Orioles take that money and start spending it on pitching, well, then you might worry. You need dominating pitching to win this thing."

Ooooh...take that Orioles!

The article contains no mention anywhere of Tampa Bay.

Ooooh...take that Devil Rays!
Pepper Moffatt - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 03:27 PM EST (#82734) #
http://economics.about.com
Yuck! Why would you want your two favourite teams in the same league and division, Mike? Plus, Cleveland!?

Geographic convenience. The main reason I cheer for the Jays is because I can't get upto Olympic Stadium too often. It's much easier to visit Detroit, Toronto or Cleveland. Plus diehard Jays fans (HA!) could see a lot more road Jays games this way.

The other reason is I think JP and Keith are doing a hella-good job.

This makes less than no sense. I'm hardly against revenue sharing, but I can't think of a single business reason why shared revenues should be parcelled out geographically.

I thought you were more creative than that, CB.

The point of the Luxury Tax is to punish teams from spending too much. It's a soft cap. Paying a tax is a punishment and a deterrent. Paying a tax and seeing the proceeds of that tax go to your division rivals: a better punishment and a slightly more powerful deterrent.

The point is that the Orioles, Jays, and D-Rays are the ones most directly impacted by the Yankees and Red Sox spending too much, so they should receive a disproportionate amount of the proceeds.

It has nothing to do with "geography" and everything to do with how the sport is structured.

Mike
_SportsmanTO - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 03:35 PM EST (#82735) #
Thanks to the answer to my question I was being intentionally vague so as to get different interpretations of the answer. As for Rich Aurillia I think he'd be a nice fit for the Jays from a clubhouse standpoint and against lefties.

BTW on this whole divisions talk I think when the divisions were being re-alligned one of the proposed ideas was to have it as Toronto, NYY, Boston, Detroit and Montreal. That would've been an interesting division I think.
_Matthew E - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 03:43 PM EST (#82736) #
I'm against expanding the playoffs. Click on my name for more of my thoughts on this. When I wrote that, though, I hadn't thought of one reason why:

If you drastically expand the playoffs, the Yankees (for instance) are going to be in there every year. I know it's been a while since the last time they finished out of the money, but if you expand the playoffs, you'll never be able to get them out of there.

I also don't want the Jays moved to the Central, for the same reasons that everyone else has stated, and a couple more:

- it's not fair. Why should Toronto get to duck out on the Yankees and Red Sox while the Orioles and D-Rays have to stay and take their medicine? Somebody's got to be in the East.

- it'd mean more eight-o'clock starts and fewer seven-o'clock starts. Unless the schedule is balanced, which would be a good thing. It would probably spell the end of interleague play, too, which I wouldn't mind but don't insist on.
_Matthew E - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 03:44 PM EST (#82737) #
http://www.bluejayway.ca/features/me/me063003.php
Cripes. When I posted 'click on my name' I forgot to provide the link. Here it is this time.
Dave Till - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 04:12 PM EST (#82738) #
I want the Jays to be in the same division as the Sox and Yanks. If (and hopefully when) these bloated high-payroll monsters crash and burn, it will be extremely enjoyable to zip past them in the standings with an intelligently-crafted team boasting one-third the payroll. Take that, George Steinbrenner and John Henry!

But, having said that, I miss the old Toronto-Detroit rivalry, back when the Tigers were good. (Yes, I am old enough to remember when the Tigers were good. Now shut up, you young whippersnapper, and hand me my teeth. :-)) Detroit is the closest major league city to Toronto, and it's a shame they're not in the same division.

If the American League ever expands into an east coast city such as Washington, the Jays are the team most likely to move into the AL Central, as Toronto is west of the other AL East cities.
_Rob - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 04:38 PM EST (#82739) #
Nobody seems to cover the most disturbing fact of this whole AL East situation: The Tampa Bay Pitiful Rays.

Until Toronto can figure out how NOT to go 8-11 or 6-13 vs T-Bay, they will have NO chance at a wildcard.

This (at least when I posted this comment) hasn't been mentioned. Does anyone here agree?
_Sean - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 05:11 PM EST (#82740) #
http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
I agree... Tampa Bay is like our new Milwaukee.
_greenfrog - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 05:17 PM EST (#82741) #
The problem with one high-payroll, bloated monster--Boston--is that it's been intelligently run of late. That is one stacked team. Schilling, Martinez, Lowe, Foulke, Kim, that offense (soon to be augmented by A-Rod). Wow.

A question: are the Yankees/Red Sox so rich that they will always be able to win? There are so many ways to do this:

- Expensive, multiple off-season FA acquisitions
- Off-season "salary" trades (acquiring good players for little, simply because the former have become too expensive for their original teams)
- Trading deadline "salary" trades (same reason)
- Signing expensive Japanese, Cuban, Taiwanese players, etc.
- Drafting players with anticipated high financial demands (whom other teams will bypass because they can't afford them), etc.

If these two teams ever create what Beane described as a "$120 million (or $150, or $200 million) developmental machine", watch out...
_S.K. - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 05:21 PM EST (#82742) #
MAN those Brewers were tough... I hated Molitor so much back then.
_Rob - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 05:30 PM EST (#82743) #
I'm a bit too young to remember the Brewers being any good at all.
(I'm talking to you, Selig)
_Rob - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 05:32 PM EST (#82744) #
Just to clarify - I meant "the Brewers being any good" vs. the Jays, as this whole argument comes from bad teams beating Toronto.
_SportsmanTO - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 06:14 PM EST (#82745) #
Greenfrog I doubt the Yanks will stay on top for very much longer. There's been published reports that this is Cashman's last year and another report where the front office people were telling Steinbrenner that Vlad is better than Sheffield but Steinbrenner went after Sheff instead. If Steinbrenner brings in a yes-man or a guy who's easily manipulated than the Yanks are going to fall into tough times.

Boston is the one team i'm scared of tho.
_steve - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 06:28 PM EST (#82746) #
i would love to see baseball go with an nfl like playoff system.

6 teams, two with byes. first round 5 games, all other rounds 7.

this gives an incentive to finish in first (REST!!!) but allows teams like toronto a chance to sniff at the playoffs.

this may mean to shorten the season to 155-160 games or a better solution would be to just start the season a little earlier. i mean spring training is so damn long.
_GregH - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 09:59 PM EST (#82747) #
Mike Hogan on The Fan 590 was talking a bit about playoff expansion this morning (although I think he's against it). I e-mailed the following notion to him, and would enjoy seeing comments from Bauxites about it.

As a player and lover of baseball for 40 years and a Blue Jays fan since '77, I think it's time the MLB playoffs were expanded. With 30 teams in the Leagues and only 4 from each making the playoffs, the season and fan interest is over in many cities by June or July. The day of watching even a losing team just for the joy of watching the play is long gone among fans(especially, it seems, in Toronto); playoff contention is all that creates interest.

Traditionalists may argue that the purity of the game should remain intact, ignoring that baseball playoffs haven't been "pure" since Divisional play began. Much as we like to think of baseball as being unchanged over the past 100 years or so, nothing could be further from the truth. The ball itself is different, strike zones have been changed and changed back, heights of mounds have been adjusted and player skills have altered the game dramatically.

A more valid point raised by the traditionalists is that the 162 game season must mean something. Certainly if 8 teams from each League make the playoffs, there is a real possibility that a team with a regular season record under .500 might make the post-season. Many are uncomfortable with the idea that more than half of the teams in the Leagues would make the playoffs.

I have an idea that might be a good compromise. In each League, 7 teams make the playoffs - the first and second place teams in each Division plus one League-wide wild card. The team in each League with the best overall record gets a bye in a new first round, a best of five series in which the second overall team plays the seventh overall team and so on. Home field advantage goes to the team with the better record. If there is a tie in the standings for first or second place in each Division or for the wild card, a one-game playoff would be held to determine the final standings.

The first round of the AL playoffs this year under the suggested format would be as follows:

New York - bye
Oakland vs Toronto or Chicago
Boston vs Chicago or Toronto
Seattle vs. Minnesota

After the new first round, the playoffs continue as now, with the first place team joining in.

It might be necessary to shorten the regular season to 154 or 156 games to accomodate the extra week of playoffs while still finishing the World Series in October, although I would rather keep the 162 game season (so that modern records for home runs, hits, pitching wins etc. remain meaningful and easily compared) and shorten the pre-season by a week. There may be concern about starting the regular season a week early because of possible cold and bad weather in northern ballparks. However, starting a week early in most years is not likely to give worse conditions than those in the early season of this year. I remember watching the Jays in Fenway wearing balaclavas in the second week of the season. Everyone survived!

I think the suggested format accomplishes five things - it lets more teams in and keeps interest alive in more cities while preserving the fun of the wild card race. At the same time it does reward the teams with the best records, thus making the regular season meaningful, and also ensures that less than half of the teams in the Leagues make the playoffs.

I wonder if anyone has ever thought of this approach before, and what chances there may be of the playoff format changing anytime soon.
_StephenT - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 10:22 PM EST (#82748) #
I'm okay with 7 teams in, but I'd do it in this other way to actually increase the importance of winning your division.

The 4 wildcard teams would play a couple of 1-game playoffs: 4 vs 7, 5 vs 6, winner vs winner, for the right to be the same as the one wildcard team is now.

This would give each division winner a few days to set up their rotation, which is all they would want. They wouldn't want to sit around for more than a week.

If it's true that the Yankees and Red Sox are the two top teams, they would still have a meaningful race for first in the East, because the loser would have to win 2 must-win games in a row against some pretty decent teams, and then face a rested opponent while their pitching is messed up; lots of incentive.

You could reduce the LCS from 7 games to 5 so that the playoffs don't go on any longer. No more potential weeks off between the LCS and WS.

A lot of people would be screaming about the unfairness of one bad umpire's call in the wildcard round. Everyone would watch. It would be great.
Mike Green - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 10:22 PM EST (#82749) #
As an old-timer, I think the best thing is to make the pennant races really important and special. We really should have 2 divisions in each league, no wild card, a league championship series and a World Series.

We have a 162 game schedule, and winning the division should be considered an accomplishment in its own right. Winning of a division of 4 mediocre teams is not an accomplishment that merits 162 games of play.
_Marco - Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 11:10 PM EST (#82750) #
this is some interesting talk about postseason for sure. a few comments. first-unless there's a tie after 162 games, i really don't like the one game playoff if there are multiple wild cards. anyone can beat anyone in 1 game. make it at least 3 if it's gonna be a play-in style. i'm also against having any more than 6 teams make the playoffs from each league. 162 games are so many...it's gotta mean as much. heck, keep the 4 team playoff (but do something about the unbalanced schedule so the wild card isn't decided by the easier schedule)
_Matthew E - Wednesday, December 17 2003 @ 12:54 PM EST (#82751) #
If we absolutely have to expand the playoffs, I like StephenT's idea.

Some of the arguments in favour of expanding the playoffs, though . . .

Traditionalists may argue that the purity of the game should remain intact, ignoring that baseball playoffs haven't been "pure" since Divisional play began. Much as we like to think of baseball as being unchanged over the past 100 years or so, nothing could be further from the truth. The ball itself is different, strike zones have been changed and changed back, heights of mounds have been adjusted and player skills have altered the game dramatically.

What kind of virgin/whore complex is at work here? Just because something was changed for the worse once, that means we are now obliged to ruin it in every way we can forever?

I think that this is a better way of looking at it: The playoffs are meant to accommodate the elite of major league teams. Therefore the playoff structure should be set up to accept as many teams as are likely to be among the elite in a 30-team system, maybe a little less. Care should be taken that you're not opening the doors to a second tier of lesser teams.

The current system, flawed as it is, isn't letting too many mediocre teams into the playoffs. And the mediocre teams that do get in generally do so because they're the best of a weak division. That's okay; they beat out everyone in their division, so they won something. They can stay. The Jays, successful as their season may have been in context this year, didn't win a damn thing and I don't want to see them in the playoffs until they do.
_Greg H - Wednesday, December 17 2003 @ 04:06 PM EST (#82752) #
Matthew E
I agree that in an ideal world, MLB playoffs should be for the elite teams in baseball only.

But the world is no longer ideal - if there is no playoff hope, fans in most Major League cities stay away. Teams need the fans in the seats (and watching on TV) for as long as possible in the season to give them the dollars to fund elite teams. Today's sports fans generally are not interested unless the team has a chance to "win it all" And in true vicious circle manner, teams need the casual fans -to supply the money to pay the players. No money for players to make a winning team, fans stay away, less money than ever. The Blue Jays 1994-2003 are a prime example.

I fear that insistence on purity in the playoffs may mean the demise of baseball, or at least its reduction to mediocrity, in many Major League cities, perhaps including Toronto.
_Matthew E - Wednesday, December 17 2003 @ 04:42 PM EST (#82753) #
Greg H: If you're in a world that is not the ideal world, what do you do? Do you:

a) try to make it more ideal, or
b) give up and agree to make it less and less ideal to cater to the people who don't care about the subject in question anywhere near as much as you do?

My reading of this thread so far is that the two of us have different answers.
robertdudek - Wednesday, December 17 2003 @ 07:03 PM EST (#82754) #
I think the best way to go is to have two divisions in each league and have each division winner plus the two next best records make the playoffs. Of course the schedule would have to be a little more balanced (15 games against the Yankees and Bosox is plenty).

If you desperately want to expand, 16 teams is too much. I think 6 in each league with the two division winners getting byes and the 4 best record teams player best of 3 series (as they used to in the NHL) is a nice happy-medium.
_Rob - Wednesday, December 17 2003 @ 09:47 PM EST (#82755) #
Another possibility is 5 teams: Division winners, 2 wildcards.
The catch is the division winners don't get automatic 1-3 seeds, like the NHL. Chicago or Minny won't get that easy 3-spot, but maybe a 4 or 5. The 4 and 5 seeds would then play a best-of-three, with the winner going to play the team with the best record, as is the case now.

Last year, this system would have produced the following matchups:
#5 Minnesota at #4 Seattle (best of 3)

Then it would be MIN or SEA at #1 New York (best of 5)
#3 Boston at #2 Oakland (best of 5), followed by the usual LCS.

Looks pretty good to me, even though the Jays aren't there.
This would also give 1, 2, and 3-seeds a few days off to set their rotation, and let a good 3rd place team (like the Jays) have a chance in a tough division. Of course, it would be more satisfying to beat the Yanks for the division, but let's be realistic.
_Greg H - Wednesday, December 17 2003 @ 10:13 PM EST (#82756) #
Matthew E
I don't think we are far apart from each other - we are core fans who both love baseball and would follow it for as long as it's played anywhere.

In truth, I think it would be wonderful to have only two divisions in each league with the first place teams in each playing for the League Championship and the winner going to the World Series.

However, to make this structure fair would require an equalized schedule, a serious salary cap as in the NBA and rigid revenue sharing as in the NFL. Without those three things, the same teams would be in the playoffs year after year.

None of the things in the above paragraph are likely to happen.

To survive, or to avoid becoming a marginalized second-tier sport, baseball must attract the casual fan. With so much competition for the sport-entertainment dollar, the only way to attract the casual fan is with the hope of playoff contention. Fielding a team that plays exciting ball and wins more than it loses is no longer enough. The best proof of this point recently is the Marlins - they had the best record in baseball from late May on, but no one showed up until they were in the playoffs. Part of that may be the population mix where they play and the idea of watching outdoor games in the Florida sun and heat, but most of it is because casual fans today just aren't interested until the games "mean something".

Without the casual fan, as in Toronto and in many other Major League cities over the past few years, teams will play to half empty stadiums. Revenue in those cities will dwindle and the teams will disappear or be ignored. The Blue Jays could well win 90 to 93 games in 2004, but in the absence of playoff hopes, will anyone besides the core fans notice?

I have come to the conclusion, reluctantly, that the only way to generate interest in casual fans across the Leagues is to expand the playoffs. My little scheme with 7 teams from each League getting playoff berths was an attempt to do that and still keep some of the notion that playoff qualification is only for the best.
robertdudek - Thursday, December 18 2003 @ 02:16 PM EST (#82757) #
I've noted it before, but the NBA does not have a serious salary cap - in fact it's kind of a joke. MLB should institute a real salary cap, unlike the fake one basketball has.
_Grimlock - Friday, December 19 2003 @ 12:35 AM EST (#82758) #
However, to make this structure fair would require an equalized schedule, a serious salary cap as in the NBA and rigid revenue sharing as in the NFL. Without those three things, the same teams would be in the playoffs year after year.

Not true. The Yankees would have missed the playoffs a couple of times during their recent World Series run, if not for the expanded playoffs. By lowering the bar to get in, it is ensuring that the same teams get in year after year.
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