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A very charitable Richard Griffin calls the Jays the best team in the East, dollar for dollar, and talks with J.P. about the game's changing fiscal landscape.

"I flew down with all the Red Sox guys," Ricciardi said of his flight from the family homestead in Boston. "They all looked miserable, to be honest with you. All these guys being talked about as being dealt are all the big-money guys. Teams are finding out that outside of the Red Sox and Yankees, who can handle those contracts? They strap you so much financially. Maybe they'd rather have the flexibility more than one player. You can ask (Yankees GM Brian) Cashman and Theo (Bosox counterpart Epstein)."


Because Griff isn't being controversial or provocative here, I don't expect the usual heated discussion about the column, which is worth reading.

Among the several free-agent shortstops who might be offered employment by the Jays are Denny Hocking, Royce Clayton, Rey Ordonez and Chris Gomez. Of the four, Hocking, a 33-year-old switch-hitter, is the only one who bats left-handed.

Nice little additions. Unfortunately for the Jays, just as in boxing, a good big man will beat a good little man every time, so in baseball will a good big team beat a good little team every time. That's why the Jays are still looking at a third-place finish in the wacky world of daily one-upmanship that is the AL East.


That's exactly what most of us are saying here too, while clinging to the fan's dream of being the next Angels, the next Marlins. For a refreshing change, Griffin doesn't try to spin this reality as a bad thing. He also drops two names among the free-agent relievers: Roberto Hernandez and Mike DeJean.

Both have closed before, but Roberto's almost as old and almost as round as me, so I definitely prefer DeJean. Keeping in mind that there will be other possibilities on the market a week from Monday, and that the interest may or may not be mutual, as with Mr. Worrell, Mike might be the guy. He was really very good in 2001 and 2002, but slipped a little last season. The last time he had an off-year was 1999, and he bounced back fairly well.

19 saves for the Cardinals last season filling in for the injured Jason Isringhausen.

This is why writers have to do that extra bit of research sometimes, if they aren't paying attention. As most of us already know, 18 of DeJean's saves were for the Brewers, before St. Louis traded for him as a setup man and bullpen insurance. Of course, I'm just nit-picking; I've been known to be lazy and make the odd mistake myself.
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The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_birddroppings - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 11:32 AM EST (#83291) #
Griffin really has been letting his articles slide and I am becoming increasingly disappointed with this. Where is our fodder? Where is the negativity, and down right Ricciardi hatred which is typical of a Richard Griffin article? Don't get me wrong, I like positive change and welcome a positive note on Ricciard's work here in Toronto but I do miss the old Griffin. Not only did he make me feel smart, but also gave us some thought provoking stuff... even if those thoughts were either making a commitment to never read the Toronto Star again or to slit our wrists...

On a side note...

As a youngin' of only 22, I was wondering if any of you old folk have something called 'MSN.' It's a program on 'computers' which allow people to 'message' one another back and forth instantaneously. Sort of like 'e-mail,' but instant. Hense, instant messaging. I am unsure if they allow this at the old folks homes, but if they do... add me to your list bembenek@mail.com. Enough sarsasm.
Leigh - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 11:41 AM EST (#83292) #
I am a whopping 1 year your senior; and yes, I have messenger too. d7a34@unb.ca. This is a good idea.
_MatO - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 11:56 AM EST (#83293) #
I sometimes get the impression that if Ted Rogers came to JP with an extra 10M that JP might just say no thanks 50M is enough. He just enjoys the challenge. Just imagine what he might do with the 53M he had last year. Just why was the budget cut? The $CDN is stronger and don't the Jays get a bigger slice of revenue sharing?
_Chris Lemieux - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 12:07 PM EST (#83294) #
Add me to MSN if you want I'm an old 3rd year student at college, 11+ year of the Jays and a soon to be retired 22 years of age... Chris, lol. jaysfan29@cogeco.ca
Pistol - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 12:15 PM EST (#83295) #
The fact is the Jays were the only team in the top four of the AL East last year to spend less than a million dollars per victory. Toronto had 86 wins on an opening day payroll of $53 million (all figures U.S.).

Of course the Devil Rays did this too, and had a better ratio than the Jays. So because it doesn't help the point being made, throw it out!

I sometimes get the impression that if Ted Rogers came to JP with an extra 10M that JP might just say no thanks 50M is enough. He just enjoys the challenge.

I'm sure he'd enjoy the challenge just as much with $10 million more.

He also drops two names among the free-agent relievers: Roberto Hernandez and Mike DeJean.

I can't say I'd be interested in either. And of course now I've got my sights set on Terry Adams if he's interested in KL money.

What I hope the Jays don't do is spend that remaining $3.5 million or so just to spend it. I think that money becomes more valuable once the season starts. I'd hold onto it, look for some bargains among the non-tenders, and if there's nothing that looks good just save it for the middle of the season when you can trade for players for a discount.
_sweat - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 12:16 PM EST (#83296) #
Maybe Griffin has started going to AA. He does seem to have gotten an attitude adjustment.
_Jonny German - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 12:58 PM EST (#83297) #
AVG / OBP / SLG from the last 3 years, and 2003 salary:

Chris Gomez: .260 / .298 / .397 in 937 AB. $500,000
Tony Graffanino: .271 / .340 / .423 in 624 AB. $575,000
Jose Hernandez: .254 / .314 / .423 in 1586 AB. $1,000,000
Denny Hocking: .248 / .308 / .339 in 775 AB. $1,100,000
Royce Clayton: .246 / .304 / .362 in 1258 AB. $1,500,000
Rich Aurilia: .288 / .335 / .472 in 1679 AB. $6,250,000
Rey Ordonez: .258 / .299 / .348 in 1038 AB. $6,500,000


This message brought to you by the "Tony G Toronto" campaign.
Coach - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 01:05 PM EST (#83298) #
I am unsure if they allow this at the old folks homes

Very funny. It may well be an age thing; I adjusted to PCs well enough in the eighties to bring a lot of racing offices out of the pencil-and-paper dark ages, and I don't know how I ever got along without e-mail, though it does take up a lot of time. The line seems to have been drawn at IM; I have Trillian, but except for special occasions (fantasy drafts and other pre-arranged chats) I never use it, and none of my geezer friends is clamoring for me to start. Needless to say, our kids use it the way we use the telephone. As you get to be 50+, your ability to multitask diminishes, I'm sorry to say. The 1950's (and earlier) brains among us are working with 8-bit operating systems and not as much RAM as you late models.
Pistol - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 01:17 PM EST (#83299) #
http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/graffto01.shtml
And looking at Graffanino's number's last year was a down year for him - COMN.

OBP
99- .364
00- .363
01- .370
02- .329
03- .331
_Oggman - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 01:26 PM EST (#83300) #
The fact is the Jays were the only team in the top four of the AL East last year to spend less than a million dollars per victory. Toronto had 86 wins on an opening day payroll of $53 million (all figures U.S.).

Of course the Devil Rays did this too, and had a better ratio than the Jays. So because it doesn't help the point being made, throw it out!


Hmmm...I was going to call you on this, but the Devil Rays with there 63 wins would need a payroll of under 38 million to beat the Jays in Millions/Wins. B-r.com has there payroll, but it doesn't have the info on Greg Vaughns huge contact they had to eat (9 million or so IIRC). Even with that monstrosity on the books, I still think they are under 38, hell with 6.5 of Rey-Rey being lifted off the books this year, they might have a payroll of about 15 million.
_SportsmanTO - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 03:41 PM EST (#83301) #
Marty York has been saying the Jays are going after Rey Sanchez. I don't really like this but that's just gut feeling as always.

I think Richard Griffin is mellowing with age. (HA!) He'll probably make controversial collumns once the season starts. I also agree that it looks like JP enjoys the challenge of having a middle market type of budget rather than having oodles of cash to spend. He certainly makes it seem like Theo Epstein and his co-horts in Beantown aren't exactly grinning from ear to ear with all the big money being thrown around.

I've heard that Cashman is/has losing/lost his grip on the Yankees as Steinbrenner is starting to get more involved in the personel and financial aspect of the team. Many people are viewing this as a warning sign that the Steinbrenner of the 80's may be returning. (I would personally love that as a Jays fan!)

I also have MSN but i'm so new here I think i'll keep that info to myself for now. I may give it out in a couple months, who knows?
_Kyle S - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 03:56 PM EST (#83302) #
Be wary of Roberto Hernandez. His fastball is still fast, but it has zero movement on it, and his other stuff is so bad that people are just teeing up on him. Every Braves fan I know was ecstatic to be rid of him at the year's end.

Sadly, we just traded our top pitching prospect, Adam Wainright, (a guy with comparable numbers to Dustin McGowan, yall's fave - I'll dig up his stats if anyone cares) for JD Drew. Nothing like an overpaid headcase to improve the ole' lineup. *sigh*

Yikes. What odds would anyone give on Jays winning more than the Braves this year?
Coach - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 04:11 PM EST (#83303) #
it looks like JP enjoys the challenge

He's not the type to just throw his hands in the air and concede. J.P. is a fierce competitor who inspires a lot of loyalty from the troops. I myself have been accused of falling under his spell, and I've only met him a few times. Sure, victory will be that much sweeter if it's accomplished on a tight budget, and he'll be using that as a rallying point for the Fighting Jays every chance he gets.

This message brought to you by the "Tony G Toronto" campaign.

Jonny, it's not that I don't agree with you; Graffanino would be great. I just fear that if Boston wants him, Boston will get him. If both of those teams were courting you right now, which one would you choose?

Griffin, who didn't mention Sanchez at all, pointed out that Hocking, a switch-hitter, is the only one who bats from the left side. Maybe J.P. dropped that hint, and Denny certainly has a reputation as a good guy in the clubhouse. He'd be a fine consolation prize.
_Ryan Day - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 04:18 PM EST (#83304) #
Griffin's columns haven't been bad lately -- they've just been incredibly obvious. He seems to just repeat the blindingly obvious: The Jays aren't spending as much as the Red Sox or Yankees; Miguel Batista isn't as good as Kevin Brown; Ted Lilly isn't as good as Curt Schilling.

I mean... duh.
_Jonny German - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 04:47 PM EST (#83305) #
Graffanino would be great. I just fear that if Boston wants him, Boston will get him. If both of those teams were courting you right now, which one would you choose?

Being a loyal Jays fan, born and raised in Oakville, residing in Kitchener, I would choose Toronto of course...

In seriousness, I agree that Boston will indeed get him if they want him. But I'd still like to see J.P. take a shot. And he does have one major thing he can offer Tony which will be hard for Boston to match: Gauranteed at-bats. Tosca loves to play his bench, and Tony would be a good sub at three infield positions. Think Francona could play Tony over Nomar (A-Rod?) or Mueller on a regular basis and not get roasted by the Boston media?
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 04:51 PM EST (#83306) #
Kyle S. - I'd say the Braves don't crack 90 this year and if I had to settle on a total, I'd say 88 (assuming there's no more deals). Assuming there's no more movesf, I'll say the Jays win 91.
_IAM - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 05:27 PM EST (#83307) #
Wilner just reported on the FAN that Riciardi says he's very close to making a trade for "another Kerry Ligtenberg-type" reliever, but one that would be much cheaper than acquiring the equivalent as a free agent. I wonder who Toronto's giving up ...
Craig B - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 06:21 PM EST (#83308) #
I am an old codger of 31, and I would no more use MSN Messenger than I would castrate myself with Mike Moffatt's used coffee stirrer.

But if anyone ever wants to AIM or ICQ me, feel free. AIM is tybaltgreen and ICQ handle is craigburley.
_Matthew E - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 06:24 PM EST (#83309) #
I was also surprised by this column. Maybe it's the time of year.

"They say the Grinch's heart grew three sizes that day..."

I'm not worried about the Jays being able to compete. I figure it this way, and feel free to call me on any of the individual points:

- You can't have a good team if you don't have a smart organization
- The more money you have, the less smart you have to be to be good, but you still have to be somewhat smart
- 'A good team', in this discussion, means a team that can reliably be counted on for 95-105 wins
- The Red Sox and Yankees are good teams, because of their combination of smarts and money, and Toronto seems to be turning into one
- No team can ever be reliably be counted on for more than 105 wins, no matter how much money or intelligence is involved. You just need too many things going right to do it
- Therefore the Sox and Yankees, while they might clear 105 wins in a good year, won't do it all the time, or even most of the time
- And all Toronto has to do is use their smarts to keep their team in the 'good team' range
- Ricciardi certainly seems smart enough to do it
- And after all, Oakland was able to do the same on less money
- Therefore, once they get their roster up to the level of a 'good team', they'll have about as good a competitive chance as Boston and New York. Maybe the distribution of AL East titles, if we played this out over a bajillion seasons, would break down something like, 45% NY, 30% Bos, 25% Tor, or something (leaving the Os and Rays out of it for the sake of simplicity), but that's okay

Fire away.
_Kristian - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 06:32 PM EST (#83310) #
If Riccardi is trading for a reliever I bet someone like Werth is going from the Jays. Makes sense considering the depth we have.
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 06:50 PM EST (#83311) #
Werth and/or Cash for Scott Williamson? Maybe one of them and a League/Perkins/Vermilyea type (outstanding, but still very young) for BK? Just an idea (or two)... I guess they aren't really KL types, though.
Pistol - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 06:54 PM EST (#83312) #
Werth and/or Cash for Scott Williamson? Maybe one of them and a League/Perkins/Vermilyea type (outstanding, but still very young) for BK? Just an idea (or two)... I guess they aren't really KL types, though.

I'm pretty sure the Jays are at a point where they're enough of a threat to Boston & NY that neither team will be making a trade with the Jays any time soon.
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 06:58 PM EST (#83313) #
As dissapointing as it is to not pick up a reliever the quality of Kim, or Williamson (well... you know what I mean)

"I'm pretty sure the Jays are at a point where they're enough of a threat to Boston & NY that neither team will be making a trade with the Jays any time soon. "

has a nice ring to it :-)
Pepper Moffatt - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 07:00 PM EST (#83314) #
http://economics.about.com
Mike Moffatt's used coffee stirrer.

Why the hell would I stir my coffee?

I really liked Griffin's piece. Wish he'd write more like this one.

Mike
_JayFan0912 - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 07:09 PM EST (#83315) #
Maybe it's farnsworth ... the cubs need a catcher after all and ...

Personally I wouldn't trade for a reliver/closer at this position. The jays probably have enough money for benitez. Looking at the deal for guardado (>> benitez), benitez would probably settle for less than 3 million.
Gerry - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 07:18 PM EST (#83316) #
Per Wilner, Ben Weber is the rumoured object of JP's attention
_David Tee - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 07:25 PM EST (#83317) #
I'm pretty sure the Jays are at a point where they're enough of a threat to Boston & NY that neither team will be making a trade with the Jays any time soon.

There was speculation this afternoon on the Fan 590 sports update that the Ricciardi is in talks for a reliever, possibly Kim, who could now be expendable with the Foulke signing.
Pistol - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 07:31 PM EST (#83318) #
Sounds like Weber would fit these clues:

Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi said he could be close to a deal for a right-handed reliever.

Ricciardi added the player was not an established closer.

Ricciardi said "we would be dealing from depth."

"If we do this deal, we wouldn't have enough money to go get [an established free-agent] closer," Ricciardi said.

Ricciradi said the deal, if it is made, could happen immediately or might be delayed until Sunday
_bsh - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 07:34 PM EST (#83319) #
Sportsnet is reporting that it's an AL team and that a deal could be done by tonight. Marty York said that everyone is asking for Hudson or Gross but the Jays are reluctant to move either (duh)
_JayFan0912 - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 07:43 PM EST (#83320) #
I wouldn't move any prospects. You could get a reliever on the market quite cheaply so why bother trading some useful player for one. Relievers are not dependable too, so you may trade something for nothing.

Unless the trade is one sided I wouldn't do it.
_Lefty - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 07:59 PM EST (#83321) #
I think I started the glut Boston relievers trade a couple threads ago. I was actually drooling over the possibility of Williamson's potential availability in the event Foulke is signed. The Boston farm cupboard is obviously bare. They could really use a couple lower level prospects either for the purposes of July trades or simply to re-stock a bit.
Last season Williamsons salary was $1.6 million. I think he's in the last yr. of his contract so would thus be relatively cheap. Like Kim Williamson could start if his work as closer was not up to par. I really like him but as mentioned above would Boston trade him to the Jay's.
_Paul S - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 08:29 PM EST (#83322) #
Williamson is arb. eligible for 04. As a Sox fan I hope they realize that they need all of the ace relievers they can keep, and Kim's/Williamson's (but not Mendoza's) abilities to start would also be a commodity to retain. However, being as a Jays fan as well, I'm all for a socialist allocating of resources. :)

In the event it's Kim they acquire, and along with the signings of Chen, Cheng, and Batista, do you think there'll be a Melting Pot Jays article in the Star? :)

Do I use too many smilies? I don't usually, and you can see for yourself on AIM (TheKokaneIcon) MSN (whobetterthanpaul@hotmail.com) or ICQ (#22604205). This is a great idea.
_shill - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 09:02 PM EST (#83323) #
Despite Farnsworth's volatility... I'd like to see him as a fighting Jay.

I'm not sure I'd deal a young outfielder (Werth) for Weber. Any chance that the target of JP's affection could be Danys Baez (Cleveland?)
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 09:05 PM EST (#83324) #
Paul, looking at your hotmail address, I have to ask if you're a wrestling fan... if not we can pretend I never asked this questiong ;-)
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 09:07 PM EST (#83325) #
Baez might be considered "established". Werth for Weber might be a stretch. Godwin, though? Maybe Pond? Weber is fun to watch, the epitome of intensity.
_Ryan Day - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 09:26 PM EST (#83326) #
Established or not, I have to think Baez is out of the Jays' price range. Isn't there still a hearing pending on whether the Indians were allowed to slash his salary as they did?
_Paul S - Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 09:37 PM EST (#83327) #
Well, Donkit (can I call you Donkit?) let's keep that on the D'Lo.
_Donkit R.K. - Sunday, December 14 2003 @ 01:08 PM EST (#83328) #
I have no clever way to use the word Brown here, Paul, just pretend I did.
_Matt - Sunday, December 14 2003 @ 09:05 PM EST (#83329) #
Does no one read Bob Elliott in the Sun for their baseball news? He's far and away the best columnist/writer in the city.

In my humble opinion...
_Ryan01 - Sunday, December 14 2003 @ 10:07 PM EST (#83330) #
Whaaa? Elliot? Best columnist in the city? QUICK, get yourself to globeandmail.com and read some Jeff Blair articles.
_Matt - Sunday, December 14 2003 @ 10:21 PM EST (#83331) #
all right, I will read both for the next couple of weeks...I'll return with more complete information and a more informed opinion...
_Matthew E - Sunday, December 14 2003 @ 11:03 PM EST (#83332) #
Only problem with Blair - and it's not his fault - is he doesn't write very much. Regular beat stuff and a column every now and then. I guess that's all the Globe wants out of their baseball guy.
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