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At the request of Commissioner Moffatt (aka "Double M-Cup"), this thread is to discuss the BBFL, sepcifically Winter Trading.
BBFL Winter Trading | 63 comments | Create New Account
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Pepper Moffatt - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 10:25 AM EST (#14658) #
http://economics.about.com
Double M-Cup? I think I saw her at the Pink Panther in Aylmer, Quebec.

Anyhow, what do people like as a trade period? I don't see the Fish Candy making any trades this year, so I'm pretty indifferent.

For proposals: How about January 1st to March 1st?

I'm very open to suggestions.

Cheers,

Mike
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 11:08 AM EST (#14660) #
http://economics.about.com
Commissioner Moffatt: Before we settle the trading period, can we first put a motion to ban ALL MID-SEASON RULE CHANGES?

Absolutely. I was completely against those changes last year, which was made obvious by one of the rules being passed 19-1, with my lone dissenting vote.

I'd also like to propose a rule that there be *no* in-season team name changes. It's hard enough keeping 20 teams straight, but when people start changing their team names, it's hopeless.

I'd like to have a Winter Meetings period that is both a trading period and a rule change discussion period. At the end of the Meeting, we vote on all the proposals. After that, no more rule changes until the next Winter Meetings.

Cheers,

Mike
_Gwyn - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 11:09 AM EST (#14661) #
I'd be fine with that trading period. I dont really mind when it is as long as there is one.

I would say draft as close to opening day as possible. Depending on what yahoo slot we can grab.
_A - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 11:21 AM EST (#14662) #
I don't suppose there's an expansion draft for newbies?
_R Billie - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 11:27 AM EST (#14663) #
Jan 1 to Mar 1 makes a lot of sense. Xmas holidays and most of the significant MLB transactions will be out of the way so most people will know what they're dealing with in their players. And it should give ample time before the draft for people to set their final keep list.

I assume there is no trading of draft picks allowed.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 11:33 AM EST (#14664) #
http://economics.about.com
I don't suppose there's an expansion draft for newbies?

I was just going to post about this. Thanks A!

Status Report


I've heard from 19 of 20 existing teams, all of which say they're returning. I still need to hear back from one team. I hear that team is run by occasional BBox Poster dp. So if dp can e-mail at economics.guide@about.com, I'd appreciate it.

I've heard from 12 people who want in the league. I'd like to get it up to 20 so we can have 2 leagues of 20. If anyone is interested in joining the second league, please e-mail me at economics.guide@about.com.

Once I know how many people want to join the new league, I'll make an official expansion proposal to the other 19 teams, then we'll voted yay or nay on expanding the league. We're also considering a relegation system between the two leagues, so if anyone has a relegation proposal, please post it here or e-mail it to me.

I assume there is no trading of draft picks allowed.

I don't think we can program that into Yahoo, so I'm not sure how we'd do this. It'd be hard to enforce any sort of "pick X for me, then give him to my team" type of deal.

Cheers,

Mike
_AGF - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 11:49 AM EST (#14665) #
I agree with the draft being placed as close to opening day as possible and no mid-season rule changes. I guess I would prefer a shorter trading period, but it is no big deal. Will we have some kind of public announcement system of when trades are complete? And who determines when a trade is finalized, since we probably can't use Yahoo until the season begins?
_A - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 11:56 AM EST (#14666) #
Is there a set of current rules/by-laws posted?
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 12:29 PM EST (#14667) #
http://economics.about.com
Is there a set of current rules/by-laws posted?

To my knowledge we don't have a constitution or set of rules. It's something we need to address.

Will we have some kind of public announcement system of when trades are complete?

We'll have to. We can either do it through e-mail, through the official league site, or through Batter's Box. We could always do a combination of all three.

And who determines when a trade is finalized, since we probably can't use Yahoo until the season begins?

I guess we'll have the same 48 hour window for objections, etc.

Cheers,

Mike
_Jordan - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 12:45 PM EST (#14668) #
Mike, I believe there is actually a BBFL constitution out there somewhere. I have a couple of early drafts on my system, but not the final one; Kent would more than likely have that somewhere. It's not controversial, but it would be useful for old and new players alike; we could post it at http://bbfl.scottlucas.com when it resurfaces.

I'm seriously considering changing my team name; when's the deadline to let you know?

Also, you might want to check in at some point with the members of the Trade Committee to see if the members are still willing and available to participate again next year. I have the members and their e-addresses if you want to drop me a line at some point (the e-mail address above gets to me directly).
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 12:48 PM EST (#14669) #
http://economics.about.com
I'm seriously considering changing my team name; when's the deadline to let you know?

I guess the end of the Winter Meetings, which it looks like will be March 1. Name changes should go under the category of rule changes, off-season trades, etc.

It's not controversial, but it would be useful for old and new players alike; we could post it at http://bbfl.scottlucas.com when it resurfaces.

Sounds good. We should post it so it's available to everyone.

Also, you might want to check in at some point with the members of the Trade Committee to see if the members are still willing and available to participate again next year. I have the members and their e-addresses if you want to drop me a line at some point.

Will do.

Cheers,

Mike
_Johnny Mack - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 01:37 PM EST (#14670) #
Mike,

I just emailed you about joining the second BBFL.
_Shrike - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 01:39 PM EST (#14671) #
As did I.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 01:46 PM EST (#14672) #
http://economics.about.com
I've heard from a few more people today.. it's great to expand the waiting list!

I think you were already on the list, Shrike. I've only got a copy at home, though, so I'm not 100% sure. I'll respond to all the e-mails and post the updated waiting list late tonight or tomorrow morning.

I'll be out of the office all afternoon (stupid PowerPoint presentations!!) so I won't be able to get back to anybody until late tonight.

Ciao,

Mike
_Scott Lucas - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 04:43 PM EST (#14674) #
http://www.scottlucas.com
Justin, send it to me so I can put it on the website.

srl @ scottlucas.com

I plan to add rules and other info to the BBFL website soon.
_Scott Lucas - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 04:47 PM EST (#14675) #
I'd also like to propose a rule that there be *no* in-season team name changes. It's hard enough keeping 20 teams straight, but when people start changing their team names, it's hopeless.

Seconded. For purposes of archiving, having one team change it's name (e.g., from 'hannibals cannibals' to 'masssuckage') was no big deal, but multiple name changes will make my life very difficult.

I do plan to change mine before next season.
_Donkit R.K. - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 06:37 PM EST (#14676) #
Scott, what's the BBFL website?
_Scott Lucas - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 06:49 PM EST (#14677) #
http://bbfl.scottlucas.com
click on my name
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 07:09 PM EST (#14678) #
http://economics.about.com
I plan to add rules and other info to the BBFL website soon.

Sounds good... you guys can sort it out. I didn't even know we had a constitution! (I'm sure someone told me and I forgot. It happens a lot)

Here's the current waiting list. It stands at 16. A few of you hae been bumped up a spot, because I accidentally had someone twice.

Here's the list as it currently stands. Everyone is listed by their last name if they gave it to me, otherwise I've used their BBox handle.

Pistol Team 1
Whittaker Team 2
Gitz Team 3
Burley Team 4
MacKenzie Team 5
Delorme Team 6
Vanstrien Team 7
Simon Team 8
Baseballnut Team 9
Ben Team 10
Beaudry Team 11
Goodwin Team 12
Mackinnon Team 13
sweat Team 14
Couchot Team 15
Andrew Team 16

Once we get to 20+, I'll have the current BBFL owners vote on expansion and come up with a relegation scheme (if we decide to have one). I'm in favor of both expansion and relegation, with 3-5 teams switching between divisions each year.

If your name is not listed and you'd like to apply for an expansion franchise, please e-mail me at economics.guide@about.com.

Cheers,

Mike
_Jurgen - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 09:15 PM EST (#14679) #
Hmmm. Not hearing a lot of support for the no mid-season rule changes rule. I hope it's an idea that will gain momentum.

So, if March 1 is the end of the Winter Meetings, then there will be no more roster moves until the draft (whenever that is), right?
Coach - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 09:26 PM EST (#14680) #
I've forwarded a copy of the constitution to Commissioner Mike. It was approved, as I recall, by a league-wide vote, then we added one rule, about a team being declared inactive if an owner doesn't check in for 30 days or more.

Jan. 1 to Mar. 1 is fine with me for a trading window. We have a rule (which may need some clarification) about announcing keepers one week before the draft. Perhaps there should be an amendment that allows an owner to change keepers until an hour before the draft, in case of a spring training injury.

I won't be changing my team name, but keep in mind that we will actually be starting a new league from scratch, as far as Yahoo is concerned, so as each person "joins," they can create any team name they want. Why not go with "one week prior to the draft" as a deadline for finalizing names?

We're also at the mercy of Yahoo when it comes to draft date and time. Last year, it was a weekday evening, which ran pretty late for some of us in the East. Perhaps a weekend would be better; it's worth discussing. There is a mad rush for the "best" times as soon as they are open for business (mid-February) so we should try to agree well in advance on the ideal time, realizing that we'll have to settle for as close as Mike can get.

Scott, please add Delgado, Schilling, Schmidt, Wagner and ??? as my "Announced Keepers" on the league site; that's the best I can do right now. Maybe that will stimulate trade talks and someone will offer me one irresistable hitter for a nice package of Mike Lowell, Milton Bradley and Orlando Cabrera.
_Jordan - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 10:29 PM EST (#14682) #
Not hearing a lot of support for the no mid-season rule changes rule. I hope it's an idea that will gain momentum.

Jurgen, I don't think this will be a problem. Last year's midstream horse-change was unusual, but there's always something of the shakedown cruise in new leagues. I'm confident it'll be an uneventful season rule-wise next year.

Brett Myers and Morgan Ensberg will be available as a package for one mega-star starter or infielder. Keep it in mind.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 10:31 PM EST (#14683) #
http://economics.about.com
I'm also in favor of a much shorter trading window. I'm thinking 1 week or 2 weeks tops in mid to late January. The intention was to put some focus around the league for a short, concentrated period where you can be sure everyone is looking over their teams and open to giving/receiving offers. A singular chat session in the middle of that period with all owners in attendance would be ideal.

I like that idea.

One thing I thought of: Rule changes could, in theory, influence people's trade and keeper decisions. So maybe the period for rule changes shouldn't overlap the period for trading.

How about this for a timeline:

Dec. 15 - Jan. 15 Rules are proposed
Jan. 16 - Jan. 18 Rules are voted on
Feb. 1 - Feb. 28 Off-Season Trade Window
Mar. 1 - Last Day For Team Name Changes
Mar. 1 - Mar. 4 Teams Announce Keepers for Upcoming Season

I'm quite flexible on those dates, so I'm open to suggestions for change. If we have a few competing proposals, we'll have a league wide vote.

Cheers,

Mike
_Jurgen - Monday, December 08 2003 @ 11:26 PM EST (#14685) #
I third the motion to ban mid-season rule changes. If it's already been thirded, then I fourth it.

Jurgen, I don't think this will be a problem... I'm confident it'll be an uneventful season rule-wise next year.

I hope so. I'd like to see it in writing, though.

Rule changes could, in theory, influence people's trade and keeper decisions. So maybe the period for rule changes shouldn't overlap the period for trading.

Yes.

And I like your timeline, although if someone has a good reason to tinker with the dates I'm not really opposed to that either.

Let's assume we stick closely to what Mike has proposed.... Given that there's considerable support for having the draft as close to Opening Day as possible, might we have another Trade Window in the week before the draft near the end of Spring Training?

Perhaps there should be an amendment that allows an owner to change keepers until an hour before the draft, in case of a spring training injury.

I agree with Coach that owners should be able to change their keepers at the last minute, although it would be a good idea if all owners listed their five keepers as their top five draft choices with Yahoo at least 48hrs before draft day just in case.

I'm in favor of both expansion and relegation, with 3-5 teams switching between divisions each year.

I like the idea of treating the two leagues like the English Premiership and First Division, and I'm glad to see it's gaining steam. I actually think the bottom 6 BBFL owners should be pushed down. I also wonder if the so-called First Division Expansion League should maybe be a non-keeper league (final standings only determine next year's draft order) so there's incentive to play in the BBFL Premiership.

Also, you might want to check in at some point with the members of the Trade Committee to see if the members are still willing and available to participate again next year.

Unless we vote to rotate members of the Rules Committee like the nonpermanent members of the Security Council, count me in again for 2004.

Finally... Baird Brain keepers: Lance Berkman, Todd Helton, Brett Boone, Aubrey Huff, and ???? What? Coach already has him? Dammit, is he going to take all my best players?
Pepper Moffatt - Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 08:11 AM EST (#14688) #
http://economics.about.com
I like the idea of announcing keepers after most of spring training has transpired, but my own preference would be to have the deadline a few days ahead of the actual draft as to give each owner a better idea while preparing for the draft.

I wouldn't have a problem with that. I'm pretty flexible about all this, mainly because I'm 100% sure who my keepers are, and I'm pretty sure I won't be making any trades. :)

I like the idea of treating the two leagues like the English Premiership and First Division, and I'm glad to see it's gaining steam. I actually think the bottom 6 BBFL owners should be pushed down. I also wonder if the so-called First Division Expansion League should maybe be a non-keeper league (final standings only determine next year's draft order) so there's incentive to play in the BBFL Premiership.

I was thinking of having 3-5 keepers, but 6 would work as well. If we do decide on the second league, we'll vote on the number of keepers.

RE: Incentive to play in the BBFL Premiership. I don't think we need to create any incentive other than to call the divisions Premier and First. I think our egos will make us all want to play in Premier.

I was thinking that the first division would have keepers similar to the premier division. If we have relegation, I think the teams should be assigned randomly, to prevent teams from trying to throw games in order to get relegated to a more favorable spot.

Suppose we have 5 teams going each way. 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 from P and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 from 1st. Then after the World Series the teams are reassigned. So the owner of team 16 becomes the owner of team 3. He then has to decide what trades he'll make, who he will have as keepers, etc. Again, this is something we'll vote on.

We're pretty laid-back out West, so any reasonable plan for keepers, trades, draft dates, etc. works for me (as long as any weeknight draft starts after 5PM Pacific).

Thanks for reminding me! I forgot that we're spread out over different time zones. I'll get something after 8PM Eastern. :)

We've got 3 more interested owners, bring us to 19 expansion teams. So the second league looks feasible. Again, to get on the waiting list, please e-mail me at economics.guide@about.com .

Cheers,

Mike
_Scott Lucas - Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 11:33 AM EST (#14689) #
http://bbfl.scottlucas.com
I like the idea of relegation. Four teams ought to be enough, because we may lose another person or two each year via attrition. If that happens, it seems fair to have the next best First-division squad moved up to the Premiere League instead of picking at random. Just a thought.

I like having the draft as close to the start of the season as possible, and fixing keepers about one week before the draft so that everyone has time to develop a draft strategy.
_Jurgen - Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 07:12 PM EST (#14692) #
If I only designate one keeper, do I get 4 draft picks before anyone else gets one?

Sure, but you have to pick from Austin Kearns, Hideo Nomo, Kip Wells, Pat Burrell, Trevor Hoffman, Adam Dunn, Bill Mueller....

Looks like you've got plenty of candidates to choose from.
Coach - Wednesday, December 10 2003 @ 09:49 AM EST (#14694) #
do I get 4 draft picks before anyone else gets one?

Nope. The original rule was exactly four, changed to exactly five by a 75% majority vote. I now regret the rule change; it wasn't tremendously important to me, though it stemmed from one of my throwaway suggestions in a Monday update. I will enthusiastically support the proposed "no midseason changes" rule so that Kenesaw Mountain Moffatt never has to be in such an uncomfortable position.

Count me in on the idea of a second league with relegation/promotion. Another loose end: this didn't receive unanimous approval in a midseason discussion thread, but a modest league fee could upgrade us to Yahoo premium service. See the link for features; it includes a Jays replica jersey as the prize, for about $10 Canadian per owner.
_Spicol - Wednesday, December 10 2003 @ 05:56 PM EST (#14695) #
Everyday Eddie's willingness to be a set-up man is really screwing up the Mosquitoes. I'll keep Luis Castillo instead.
_Brad - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 12:49 AM EST (#14696) #
I for one would have no problem with a $10 fee to upgrade to a Yahoo premium league and the perks that come with it look good (though my wife might not like the extra 12 hours or so I'd need each day to take full advantage of it). I know I'd be the first on my block with a Blue Jays jersey if I was so fortuante!
Coach, how much exactly is $10 Canadian in money recognized here in Gov Schwarzenegger's realm?
Coach - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 09:07 AM EST (#14697) #
Brad, while I hesitate to answer a currency question without consulting the Commish, it would be about $7.50 for you and Ah-nold.
_Gwyn - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 09:31 AM EST (#14698) #
Man theres a lot of issues coming up here. Is Bud Moffatt going to set up an official vote ?

I like premium. I like promotion but Id rather do it with less teams rather than more. English soccer was used as an example, there only three teams move up and down every year. I think 4 should be the max. thats a 20% turnover every year. We dont want it to be easy to get in to the premier league :-)
_Jordan - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 09:33 AM EST (#14699) #
Greg, I'll deal you Brett Myers, Morgan Ensberg and Jose Valentin for A-Rod -- three keepers for the price of one.
Coach - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 12:15 PM EST (#14700) #
Greg, I'm willing to trade a very good SS replacement (Orlando Cabrera) along with one of the best 3B in the game (Mike Lowell) and a 6-category OF who hit 321/421/501 with 17 steals (Milton Bradley) for A-Rod. Not that Jordan hasn't made a fine offer, but if it helps you decide, I'll throw in your choice of Frankie Rodriguez, David Wells and Carl Pavano in a 4-for-1 swap. That is, unless someone else offers me one superstar for the whole package. I will honour an electronic handshake deal until the trading window is defined.
_Spicol - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 01:12 PM EST (#14701) #
Is this kind of talk considered tampering? ;)
_Jordan - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 03:15 PM EST (#14702) #
Tampering? Nah. Think of it as the GM Meetings in Phoenix before the Winter Meetings in New Orleans. :-)

Greg, you're a lucky man; you're suddenly the subject of a bidding war. If Kent's offer is tempting, I can add Shannon Stewart or Aquilino Lopez to my deal.
_Gwyn - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 04:42 PM EST (#14704) #
As soon as I remember who is on my team I will make a staggeringly good offer for ARod too!
_snellville jone - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 04:51 PM EST (#14705) #
Looking over everyone's rosters, I found it interesting that the Chatsworth Halos, who already have Glaus, Anderson, Percival, Washburn, Molina, and Figgins on their squad, also happens to own Bartolo Colon. Neat.
_Theo Epstein - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 05:45 PM EST (#14706) #
Greg, I'll give you Manny Ramirez and, er, that's it.
_Jonny German - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 09:32 PM EST (#14707) #
Well Greg still hasn't expressed any interest in trading A-Rod, but I'll join the party anyway: Miguel Tejada, Melvin Mora, and Odalis Perez or Jason Isringhausen.
_Brad - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 11:11 PM EST (#14708) #
Well, snellville, I guess if I play with my heart more than my head, it's not TOO terrible to have Anderson and Percival, and now Colon! (By the way, my other Halos are available if anyone is interested. Glaus and Washburn might be a decent package for one premium hitter???).

And thanks for the currency exchange lesson, Coach, though I'd be ok with spending $10 American for this league anytime!
_Reykjavik Fish - Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 11:28 PM EST (#14709) #
I shouldn't have to pay as much as I'm a small market.
_Scott Lucas - Friday, December 12 2003 @ 02:46 PM EST (#14712) #
http://bbfl.scottlucas.com
The BBFL website is updated with announced keepers and the league constitution. Obviously, the keeper list is just for display; it's not carved in stone.

I tested the site on IE and Mozilla and both seemed to work. On my machine, the text is smaller in Mozilla but readable. It looks okay on my girlfriend's Mac. Let me know if you're having any readability issues.

I took the liberty of striking out references to four keepers and changing it to five. No other changes made. We will need to amend the constitution to account for a new division, relegation, etc.

I had a thought regarding the rule of having to dump players after owning them for three years. I assume that if a player is on your roster at the end of a season, he is (for purposes of this rule) deemed to have been on your roster the entire season. For example, if I trade for Joe Blow in July 2003, keep him in 2004 and again in 2005, that counts as three full seasons even though I owned him for only a part of 2003. Correct?
_Spicol - Friday, December 12 2003 @ 03:03 PM EST (#14713) #
http://bbfl.scottlucas.com/04keepers.htm = Error 404 - File Not Found
Coach - Friday, December 12 2003 @ 03:15 PM EST (#14714) #
Fine work, Scott, except you "traded" all my keepers to the Thunderbirds, who really don't need them with all that great pitching. Nice try.

That's my understanding about the three-year rule: if you own a player at the end of 2003, you can keep him for 2004. Then you can keep him again in 2005. He goes back into the draft pool for 2006, but there's nothing to prevent you from re-drafting him and starting another three-year cycle.
_Spicol - Friday, December 12 2003 @ 03:19 PM EST (#14715) #
Ignore my last post. My browser didn't refresh since the changes.
Lucas - Friday, December 12 2003 @ 07:31 PM EST (#14716) #
you "traded" all my keepers to the Thunderbirds

You'll get nothing and like it!
_Brad - Friday, December 12 2003 @ 08:54 PM EST (#14717) #
Thank you, Scott! The website works perfect for me on IE and AOL both and looks great! Appreciate the effort.
_Justin B. - Friday, December 12 2003 @ 09:59 PM EST (#14718) #
Wow, the site revision is great. The definite keepers for the Thunderbirds are: Roy Halladay, Javier Vazquez, Johan Santana and Brian Giles. I'm still debating over whether to keep Eric Chavez or Jim Edmonds, or even Mike Cameron dependent upon where he ends up.
_King Rat - Friday, December 12 2003 @ 10:32 PM EST (#14719) #
I am also in favour of limiting the window for constitutional changes. Ditto promotion/relegation, though I'd be in favour of a smaller group-say four. As four keepers, the Rats at this moment are looking at keeping Garciaparra, Peavy, Baldelli, Meche and either Batista or Padilla. I'm looking forward to the winter meetings.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, December 15 2003 @ 07:53 PM EST (#14720) #
http://economics.about.com
UPDATE:

I've finally gotten around to responding to the e-mails I've gotten about the Waiting List.

There are now 21 people on the list, so we'll have enough for a full-sized second league. Here's the list. If you're not on it and would like to be, please e-mail me at economics.guide@about.com:

1 Pistol
2 Whittaker
3 Gitz
4 Burley
5 MacKenzie
6 Delorme
7 Vanstrien
8 Simon
9 Baseballnut
10 Ben
11 Beaudry
12 Goodwin, M
13 Mackinnon
14 sweat
15 Couchot
16 Andrew
17 Chaleff-Freudenthaler
18 Sprague
19 Armitage
20 Jackson
21 Goodwin, D

I think we should vote on a timeline. I'd like to have that vote in the next few days. I propose the timeline that I, well, proposed. Are there any alternatives people would like to put forward?

Cheers,

Mike
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