Expos fans among us might have been there that night in Olympic Stadium when Dave Dravecky's career ended just by throwing a pitch to Tim Raines. His left arm, weakened by cancer and chemotherapy, was broken, and shortly after was amputated. I write for a living, and I suppose that if I lost both of my hands, that would be comparable to what a major-league pitcher would feel if his arm were taken away from him. Dravercky, who's intensely religious, spoke with a reporter from the Toronto Star recently, a session that resulted in this interview. Dravecky handled this awful turn of events better than anyone could have asked, and he must be an actual hero to fellow amputees who wonder if life is worth living in their post-operation condition. Kudos to him for his courage and attitude.
Although Dravecky has endured more than anyone's fair share of hardship, I am uncomfortable with the tag of "hero". He and Eric Show of the 83 Padres were supporters of the John Birch Society, although Show was the more vocal of the two. I don't know if Dravecky has renounced the views of the John Birch Society since then, but I haven't heard about it.
Great Article. Imagine being called 'Snacks' by a fireplug like Kevin Mitchell. Obviously, he meant it with great respect.
Geez, Mike, can a guy have right-wing political views and still be admirable? Even far-right views?
Surely Dravecky's determination in the aftermath of tragedy is worthwhile to emulate, even if he were a wackjob who believes the UN has a secret plot to take all the guns away from Americans and turn them into commie atheists.
Surely Dravecky's determination in the aftermath of tragedy is worthwhile to emulate, even if he were a wackjob who believes the UN has a secret plot to take all the guns away from Americans and turn them into commie atheists.
Craig, yes a guy can have right-wing political view and still be admirable. But, the John Birch Society is something different. The Society espouses racist views, and in particular opposed basic civil rights for blacks (the Birchers saw American government civil rights initiatives of the 50s and 60s as "Communist"). Racism has been a cancer in society in general and in baseball in particular. That is why JP has rightly taken such great offence at the imputation of racism in the Star articles and headlines.
There have been racist incidents in baseball- Bill Singer's recent behaviour, Al Campanis' comments...I am not saying that Dravecky's former membership in the JBS is of this quality. I am just saying that I wouldn't hold him up as a hero to a kid until he disavowed the JBS.
There have been racist incidents in baseball- Bill Singer's recent behaviour, Al Campanis' comments...I am not saying that Dravecky's former membership in the JBS is of this quality. I am just saying that I wouldn't hold him up as a hero to a kid until he disavowed the JBS.
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By that logic, we should make Roy Halladay speak out against the Mormon church.
Mike
By that logic, we should make Roy Halladay speak out against the Mormon church.
Mike
I don't agree with that inference at all. Surely you'd have to proffer some evidence about the Mormon Church's bigoted views before a reasonable person would equate that institution with the JBS. So far, I agree with Mike G.
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Surely you'd have to proffer some evidence about the Mormon Church's bigoted views
Are you joking?
Read up on anything involving the church in the 1950's, 60's, and 70's, particularly their views on "The Mark of Cain". There's a library worth of books on the issue and there's thousands of essays on Google about it. Here's a pretty good one.
Mike
Surely you'd have to proffer some evidence about the Mormon Church's bigoted views
Are you joking?
Read up on anything involving the church in the 1950's, 60's, and 70's, particularly their views on "The Mark of Cain". There's a library worth of books on the issue and there's thousands of essays on Google about it. Here's a pretty good one.
Mike
Mike M, Pardon? Roy Halladay's a Mormon, and has somehow advocated some kind of discreditable idea? I'm afraid I haven't heard anything about this.
In any event, I don't get your point. Is it:
a. racism is OK,
b. just because you're a John Birch Society member, it doesn't mean that you're a racist, or
c. even if you're a racist, you can still be a hero?
I honestly don't think you're advocating a. It might be a combination of b. and c. If it's c., let's just say that we have different ideas of what a hero is.
In any event, I don't get your point. Is it:
a. racism is OK,
b. just because you're a John Birch Society member, it doesn't mean that you're a racist, or
c. even if you're a racist, you can still be a hero?
I honestly don't think you're advocating a. It might be a combination of b. and c. If it's c., let's just say that we have different ideas of what a hero is.
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I'm saying there's no more evidence that Dravecky's beliefs make him a racist than anyone else's beliefs, including Halladay's.
Where has Dravecky ever advocated racism? He hasn't. He's just a member of an organization with a racist past, like Halladay.
Mike
I'm saying there's no more evidence that Dravecky's beliefs make him a racist than anyone else's beliefs, including Halladay's.
Where has Dravecky ever advocated racism? He hasn't. He's just a member of an organization with a racist past, like Halladay.
Mike
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I just wanted to clarify that the above was not meant as a slight to Roy Halladay, whom I have the utmost respect for. It doesn't at all matter what his religious affiliations are.
What I was trying to say is, if we discount people for belonging to an organization with a racist past, we have to discount anyone who has ever been (or currently is) a member of: The John Birch Society, The Mormon Church, the British Columbia Liberal Party, the Catholic Church, Major League Baseball, almost any branch of the Republican or Democratic parties, the German Army, the Salvation Army, and possibly the KISS Army. I can't confirm the last one, though.
Cheers,
Mike
I just wanted to clarify that the above was not meant as a slight to Roy Halladay, whom I have the utmost respect for. It doesn't at all matter what his religious affiliations are.
What I was trying to say is, if we discount people for belonging to an organization with a racist past, we have to discount anyone who has ever been (or currently is) a member of: The John Birch Society, The Mormon Church, the British Columbia Liberal Party, the Catholic Church, Major League Baseball, almost any branch of the Republican or Democratic parties, the German Army, the Salvation Army, and possibly the KISS Army. I can't confirm the last one, though.
Cheers,
Mike
can a guy have right-wing political views and still be admirable?
I don't care about his politics or religion, Dravecky has been courageous and inspirational. Battling through cancer, the amputation and a severe depression makes him a hero to me, and I can understand why amputees would admire the man even more.
I don't care about his politics or religion, Dravecky has been courageous and inspirational. Battling through cancer, the amputation and a severe depression makes him a hero to me, and I can understand why amputees would admire the man even more.
Didn't Eric Show end up a crackhead?
BaseballLibrary.com says that on March 16, 1994, Show died at 37 of "unknown causes" at Rancho L'Abri Drug and Alcohol treatment center near San Diego. Elsewhere, his death is attributed to "alcohol-related" causes.
Notorious for his JBS membership and surrendering the Pete Rose hit that broke Ty Cobb's record, Show actually went on the DL in 1991 for biting his nails. Hardly a survivor like Dravecky, he sounds like a troubled guy.
BaseballLibrary.com says that on March 16, 1994, Show died at 37 of "unknown causes" at Rancho L'Abri Drug and Alcohol treatment center near San Diego. Elsewhere, his death is attributed to "alcohol-related" causes.
Notorious for his JBS membership and surrendering the Pete Rose hit that broke Ty Cobb's record, Show actually went on the DL in 1991 for biting his nails. Hardly a survivor like Dravecky, he sounds like a troubled guy.
Okay, Mike, I see where you're coming from now. What I was asking for (clumsily, I might add) was a direct link to a current objectionable stance taken by the MC. I am well-aware of some of their past misdeeds. But I recognize that I might be inadvertently proposing a double standard.
In any case, there is no doubt in my mind that Dravecky is a very admirable man, worthy of a great deal of respect, especially by those who have direct experience of cancer, depression and (particularly) amputation.
In any case, there is no doubt in my mind that Dravecky is a very admirable man, worthy of a great deal of respect, especially by those who have direct experience of cancer, depression and (particularly) amputation.
http://economics.about.com
Right. I was objecting to the fact that the actions of the JBC in the 1960's should be held against Dravecky. If you're commenting on the current actions/positions taken by the JBC, that's a different issue entirely. But it's not the one I was objecting to. :)
Cheers,
Mike
Right. I was objecting to the fact that the actions of the JBC in the 1960's should be held against Dravecky. If you're commenting on the current actions/positions taken by the JBC, that's a different issue entirely. But it's not the one I was objecting to. :)
Cheers,
Mike
There is quite a difference between being a Mormon in 2003 and a John Birch Society member in 1983. The Mormon religion has been practised for hundreds of years. Like many religions, it has had periods of intolerance and has changed its professed views over the years. As of 2003, while there may be problems in practice, it is to the best of my knowledge not espousing racist views.
The John Birch Society is a political organization formed in 1958. Its goals had not changed between 1958 and 1983, when it continued to espouse the continuation of the project of Joe McCarthy. It still does so today.
I am quite sure that minority ballplayers in the Blue Jay clubhouse are perfectly comfortable with Roy Halladay, whether he is Mormon or not. On the other hand, it was well known in 1983 that Show and Dravecky's professed membership in the JBS caused considerable clubhouse tension among minority ballplayers.
The John Birch Society is a political organization formed in 1958. Its goals had not changed between 1958 and 1983, when it continued to espouse the continuation of the project of Joe McCarthy. It still does so today.
I am quite sure that minority ballplayers in the Blue Jay clubhouse are perfectly comfortable with Roy Halladay, whether he is Mormon or not. On the other hand, it was well known in 1983 that Show and Dravecky's professed membership in the JBS caused considerable clubhouse tension among minority ballplayers.
I belong or belonged to a variety of organizations with a racist and/or sexist past. These include:
The United States of American
The State/Republic of Texas
The Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex
The Roman Catholic Church
The Boy Scouts of America
Plenty more where THAT came from.
The United States of American
The State/Republic of Texas
The Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex
The Roman Catholic Church
The Boy Scouts of America
Plenty more where THAT came from.
Woops. Make that "The United States of America." I type the word "American" so often during the day that it happens automatically. Please note that American Airlines is not now and has never been a racist or sexist organization.
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There is quite a difference between being a Mormon in 2003 and a John Birch Society member in 1983. The Mormon religion has been practised for hundreds of years. Like many religions, it has had periods of intolerance and has changed its professed views over the years. As of 2003, while there may be problems in practice, it is to the best of my knowledge not espousing racist views.
Cite where the JBC was espousing racist views in 1983.
The John Birch Society is a political organization formed in 1958. Its goals had not changed between 1958 and 1983, when it continued to espouse the continuation of the project of Joe McCarthy. It still does so today.
What does this have to do with racist views?
I am quite sure that minority ballplayers in the Blue Jay clubhouse are perfectly comfortable with Roy Halladay, whether he is Mormon or not.
Cite.
it was well known in 1983 that Show and Dravecky's professed membership in the JBS caused considerable clubhouse tension among minority ballplayers.
Cite.
Seriously, this is all just silly. I'm not going to comment on this nonsense any further.
Mike
There is quite a difference between being a Mormon in 2003 and a John Birch Society member in 1983. The Mormon religion has been practised for hundreds of years. Like many religions, it has had periods of intolerance and has changed its professed views over the years. As of 2003, while there may be problems in practice, it is to the best of my knowledge not espousing racist views.
Cite where the JBC was espousing racist views in 1983.
The John Birch Society is a political organization formed in 1958. Its goals had not changed between 1958 and 1983, when it continued to espouse the continuation of the project of Joe McCarthy. It still does so today.
What does this have to do with racist views?
I am quite sure that minority ballplayers in the Blue Jay clubhouse are perfectly comfortable with Roy Halladay, whether he is Mormon or not.
Cite.
it was well known in 1983 that Show and Dravecky's professed membership in the JBS caused considerable clubhouse tension among minority ballplayers.
Cite.
Seriously, this is all just silly. I'm not going to comment on this nonsense any further.
Mike
Mike M,
To answer your points, you can check out the JBS website, which I did. As I indicated, the JBS opposed civil rights legislation in the 50s and 60s as "Communist". The ongoing professed project of the JBS is "continuing the project of Joe McCarthy", which was the removal of all things perceived to be Communist from American life.
As for Show and Dravecky causing upset in the San Diego clubhouse, I'm sure that you'll find plenty of satirical commentary in the Bill James abstract from 1984 in the section on the Padres. It was widely reported in all major newspapers at the time.
I repeat. I'm not saying Dave Dravecky is not courageous in dealing with his hardship, and that he didn't, and doesn't, have a right to be affiliated with the John Birch Society, and say just about anything he pleases. But, he's not my idea of a hero, at least until the sordid events of 1983 are dealt with.
To answer your points, you can check out the JBS website, which I did. As I indicated, the JBS opposed civil rights legislation in the 50s and 60s as "Communist". The ongoing professed project of the JBS is "continuing the project of Joe McCarthy", which was the removal of all things perceived to be Communist from American life.
As for Show and Dravecky causing upset in the San Diego clubhouse, I'm sure that you'll find plenty of satirical commentary in the Bill James abstract from 1984 in the section on the Padres. It was widely reported in all major newspapers at the time.
I repeat. I'm not saying Dave Dravecky is not courageous in dealing with his hardship, and that he didn't, and doesn't, have a right to be affiliated with the John Birch Society, and say just about anything he pleases. But, he's not my idea of a hero, at least until the sordid events of 1983 are dealt with.
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I said I wasn't going to comment on this again, and I'm not. I just wanted to correct a factual error.
I'm sure that you'll find plenty of satirical commentary in the Bill James abstract from 1984 in the section on the Padres.
I have the '84 abstract right here. Nowhere in the Padres section does it mention the John Birch society or the Padres clubhouse.
The Padres section is on pages 78-79 and contains 7 sections:
1. Cruise Control
2. A Short Circut
3. Why the Padres Scores 653 Runs
4. Why The Padres Should Score Even More Runs Next Year
5. They're More Comfortable Playing in Mud
6. Turf 2
7. We'll Get 'Em Next Decade
Perhaps you're thinking of a different publication.
Mike
I said I wasn't going to comment on this again, and I'm not. I just wanted to correct a factual error.
I'm sure that you'll find plenty of satirical commentary in the Bill James abstract from 1984 in the section on the Padres.
I have the '84 abstract right here. Nowhere in the Padres section does it mention the John Birch society or the Padres clubhouse.
The Padres section is on pages 78-79 and contains 7 sections:
1. Cruise Control
2. A Short Circut
3. Why the Padres Scores 653 Runs
4. Why The Padres Should Score Even More Runs Next Year
5. They're More Comfortable Playing in Mud
6. Turf 2
7. We'll Get 'Em Next Decade
Perhaps you're thinking of a different publication.
Mike
Minor quibble: The Mormon church has not been practicing for hundreds of years, given that it was founded in the mid-nineteenth century. It has certainly changed dramatically since its founding, and is probably the most protean as well as the fastest-growing Christian denomination.
I'm inclined to say, for what little it's worth, that one can certainly admire qualities of people that hold political or moral views one finds distasteful or even repugnant. Robert E. Lee, for example, was by all accounts a gentle, humane, kind man who hated the institution of slavery. But he did more than anyone else during the Civil War to preserve it. I don't see a problem with admiring the man's personal and military gifts while deploring the cause he fought for. Otherwise you wind up vetting everyone for associations that are even slightly controversial. And then your heroes start becoming much smaller people.
I'm inclined to say, for what little it's worth, that one can certainly admire qualities of people that hold political or moral views one finds distasteful or even repugnant. Robert E. Lee, for example, was by all accounts a gentle, humane, kind man who hated the institution of slavery. But he did more than anyone else during the Civil War to preserve it. I don't see a problem with admiring the man's personal and military gifts while deploring the cause he fought for. Otherwise you wind up vetting everyone for associations that are even slightly controversial. And then your heroes start becoming much smaller people.
Sorry, Mike M, it was from the 1986 Abstract. James said..."But the trouble with Wiggins was, as the Padres saw it at the time that they had already forgiven him once. As I understand it, the team held a special meeting of their John Birch Society chapter, and they prayed for guidance and asked how many times they should forgive their brother, and the answer came to them that the appropriate number was seven times seven unless you had a platoon combination that could do the job as well.."
And then your heroes start becoming much smaller people.
As someone who lived in Ohio as a kid circa 1975, let me just say "Welcome to the conversation, Pete Rose."
As someone who lived in Ohio as a kid circa 1975, let me just say "Welcome to the conversation, Pete Rose."