My all time rotation

1.Bob Gibson
2.Sandy Koufax
3.Nolan Ryan
4.Roger Clemens
5.Steve Carlton

Hard to leave the big unit off but "Lefty" is my lefty.

Jays

1. Dave Stieb
2. Roy Halladay
3. Jimmy Key
4. David Wells
5. Chris Carpenter despite never reaching his true potential yet.

Does anyone else find it sort of funny that out of Escobar, Carpenter and Halladay, all of whom were so highly touted, the only real superstar who came out of the deal was Halladay - and that's after he was demoted and re-built?

Maybe it's to be expected (chance and all), but for some reason something about the situation doesn't add up to me. Maybe coaching around the time that Halladay and friends were coming up was lacking?

All-time rotation

1. Walter Johnson
2. Roger Clemens
3. Greg Maddux
4. Satchel Paige
5. Sandy Koufax

Jays' All-Time Rotation - forget that "homegrown" stuff!

1. Roger Clemens
2. Dave Stieb
3. Roy Halladay
4. Jimmy Key
5. Pat Hentgen

If I have to drop Clemens, I'll take Wells in the 5 slot even if he didn't do much starting here.

We had an extended discussion about the All-Time Jays Rotation here on Da Box last January 13. Perhaps Mr. Halladay's performance this year has bumped up his estimated placement, however.

I'd be interested in an All-Time What Might Have Been Rotation. J.R. Richard leaps to mind.

Would Guzman be considered homegrown? Jays traded Sharperson for him.

How about

Key
Wells
Stieb
Halladay
Hentgen

Incidentally, once playoff time rolls around, I think I'll reverse the order of that all-time rotation. I want the guy with the 0.95 career World Series ERA (36 hits, 11 walks, 61 strikeouts, 6 earned runs in 57 WS innings) on the mound in Game 1 and Game 7.

A fabulous quote by Coach from the all-time Jays rotation thread:

Clancy's durability gets the nod over Doc's brilliance, but that might seem like a foolish statement this time next year.

So Coach, what are the lottery numbers for next week, hm?

1. W. Johnson
2. Grove
3. Koufax
4. Gibson
5. R. Johnson

I know Clemens "deserves" at least #5, but I don't like the guy and have two fine rotations without him.

1. Halladay
2. Key
3. Stieb
4. Wells
5. Hentgen

When we did this last winter, I rated Doc second but pitched him third, because I wanted the lefty between him and the similar Stieb. Roy did enough this year to convince me to flip them.

This raises the old peak performance vs. career performance issues. Assuming that we're speaking about peak, my rotation would be:

Grove
Greg Maddux (94-95)
Koufax
Clemens (regretfully) and
Randy Johnson

In a playoff series, I'd want Koufax and Grove going games 1 and 2 even though they're both hard-throwing lefties.

For the Fighting Jays:

Halladay
Key
Stieb
Clancy
Hentgen

If you're listing peak seasons, there is no way that Pedro Martinez isn't at the top of anyone's list.

My all-time rotation would be:
1. Walter Johnson
2. Pedro Martinez
3. Koufax
4. Lefty Grove
5. Gibson

And I think the Jays rotation obviously includes Halladay, Stieb, Hentgen, Key, and a choice between Wells and Guzman (if you call him homegrown) with Clancy having an outside chance. I'd rank 'em:

1. Halladay
2. Stieb
3. Key
4. Hentgen
5. Wells

How is that everyone on this site is dismissing Christy Mathewson? I think you can make a legitimate argument for him as #1, and he's only #3 in the Primer rotation, I presume, to slot a Lefty (literally) second.

To be thorough--thank heavens for B-Ref!--Pedro Martinez has three of the top sixteen ERA+ single-season marks, including the top modern mark at 285 (2000), and his 1999 season ranks ninth. His 1997 season is sixteenth at 221.

Dutch Leonard's 1914 is third; Greg Maddux checks in at fourth for his 1994 campaign; Walter Johnson and Maddux tie for fifth at 259; Gibson is seventh for his 258 1968 season. Three-Finger Brown is eighth, and another Walter Johnson season rounds out the top ten. Mathewson checks in at #11, Clemens and Gooden at #12.

The best ERA+ season recorded, at 294, should be discounted because it was put up by Tim Keefe in 1880 in a league of dubious major-league stature.

Mick, I agree that Mathewson deserves serious consideration in the top five. Are you still interested in doing a sim of those initial teams? I'm considering picking up Diamond Mind, but I don't have the coin to purchase all of the disks beyond the initial package.

How is that everyone on this site is dismissing Christy Mathewson?

He's #3 on my original list.

1. Grove
2. W Johnson
3. Koufax
4. Mathewson
5. Paige

Oh, and for the Jays...

1. Stieb
2. Halladay
3. Key
4. Hentgen
5. Wells

Jays' all-time rotation:

Stieb
Halladay
Key
Hentgen
Guzman

MLB all-time:

Walter Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Grove
Mathewson
Clemens

With honorable mentions to Maddux and Paige, as well as to Warren Spahn, who died today.

Sorry, OT!

What? Duane Ward on Off The Record

Channel? TSN

When? Tuesday, November 25! 6:00pm.

--------

Just a heads up!

Top 5 all-time

Pedro Martinez
Lefty Grove
Walter Johnson
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux

Top 5 home grown Jays

Dave Stieb
Jimmy Key
Pat Hentgen
Roy Halladay
Todd Stottlemeyer

FWIW, Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Lineups goes with [fair use/dealing]:

Stieb
Key
Hentgen
Clancy
Wells

My top 5 all-time:

1. Grove
2. Clemens

To me these two are no-brainers. Clemens may be an asshole, but based on his pitching, I can't think of a good reason to leave him off.

3. Walter Johnson
4. Pedro Martinez

Pedro is a little questionable, because he doesn't have the innings of some of the other guys, but he's really been more dominant than anyone when he's been out there.

5. Greg Maddux

The fifth guy is really a toss-up. Randy Johnson, Mathewson, Koufax, and Seaver could all make a legitimate claim. I picked Maddux because I felt like it.

I think it's interesting that we've had four guys over the last generation (Clemens, Pedro, Big Unit and Maddux) that have just dominated. No other pitchers of this era are really in the same league as these four, and I think it's pretty remarkable that we've had four pitchers dominate by so much relative to the rest of the league all at once.

Jays top 5:

I have trouble putting on guys who've pitched what amounts to only two good seasons, so I choose not to include Clemens or Halladay yet, though I have no doubts that Halladay will be on there before long.

With that in mind:

1. Stieb (how is Stieb not #1)
2. Key
3. Hentgen
4. Clancy
5. Guzman

I'd love to see some all-time blue jays lists for other positions too, if anyone's interested in starting those threads.

Just because nobody else has done this...and somebody has to eventually...the Jays all-time mediocre rotation/bullpen:

Rotation:

Jerry Garvin
Erik Hanson
Joey Hamilton
93 year-old Frank Viola
137 year-old Phil Neikro

Pen:

John Frascatore
Joey Mclaughlin
Jeff Tam (yikes)
Huck Flener
Peter Munro
Jeff Ware

All-Time

1. P. Martinez
2. R. Clemens
3. L. Grove
4. W. Johnson

Sure, Martinez might not hold up, but I'm going with a four man rotation.

Blue Jays

1. Clemens
2. Stieb
3. Halladay
4. Hentgen
5. Key

Clemens' best year ever was in a Blue Jays uniform. I want that on my team.

ALL TIME ALL-TIME:
1. Koufax
2. Gibson
3. Johnson
4. Mathewson
5. Ryan
(honorable mention: Drysdale, Marichal, Sam McDowell, Palmer)

ANGELS' ALL-TIME (not that anyone ever asks!):
1. Ryan
2. Finley
3. Chance
4. Tanana
5. Messersmith
(honorable mention: Brunet, Wright, Langston, Witt)

Xander, you forgot one of my all time favorite Blue Jays: Stan Clarke. Does anyone remember him?

Clarke probably was one of the most hyper and wild pitchers the Jays ever had. He would just lose it and melt down. I always felt bad for him because he did well in Triple A and just got too nervous in the show.

All-time rotation:

W. Johnson
L. Grove
G.C. Alexander
R. Clemens
R. Johnson

And now, because you're dying to know, five starters who pitched for Toronto and Texas:

Esteban Loaiza
Danny Darwin
Dave Stewart
Todd Stottlemyre
Doyle Alexander

I think when discussing the greatest pitchers of all time, you have to include Tom Seaver in a list of top 5. When compared to his era, he stood out from the competition more than any other pitcher in baseball history. Roger Clemens was #2.

As for the Jays, what about Pete Vuckovich? He was a Jays farm hand that went on to win a Cy Young award for the Brewers. Also he starred in the movie 'Major League'. He played the Yankee's hitter that Charlie Sheen couldn't get out until the end of the movie.

Scott!
What about the legendary Bill Singer? (Once superbly nicknamed The Singer Throwing Machine.)

Or the equally legendary Steve Hargan?

Finally, I'm crushed that you didn't include future Jamie Moyer clone Doug Davis. How soon they forget!

Forgot about Singer, though I wouldn't have included him anyway because of his recent stupidity. And I didn't see Hargan while skimming Baseball Reference. There are probably some others.

Did Doug Davis really pitch for Toronto? Or was it all just some dimly remembered bad dream?

Guys,

A little unrelated, but I'm relatively new to the box -- and a daily visitor already. Just wondering what everyone thinks. Is there anything to choose between guys like Halladay, Beckett, Wood and Prior, to name a few?

In other words, who is your starting rotation of "young guys"? Or, shall we say, pick five pitchers in the majors (or not yet in the majors??) to start your franchise with.

Go.

That's an interesting twist.

I'd have to say Prior (waaay ahead of everyone else), followed by Halladay, Oswalt, Zito and Soriano.

Well, let's define "young" and add in "proven" -- say, not yet 27 and at least one season with double-digit wins.

My five:
Mark Prior
Roy Halladay
Josh Beckett
Brandon Webb
Joel Pineiro

Apologies to Kerry Wood and C.C. Sabathia.

I'm probably forgetting someone, and god forbid one of these guys has actually turned 27, but that's off hte top of my head.

no beckett? explain...

doth mine eyes deceive me this October??

Mick, I looked this up to confirm my suspicions: Barry Zito is only 25. Ergo, he's third on my list, just behind Halladay. I chose Oswalt for several seasons of top-flight work (great K rate) despite last year's injuries, and I believe Soriano is going to be better than Pineiro, who was my runner-up. Beckett is a good choice, but I'm not quite sold on Webb.

Can anyone provide an opinion on DMB? If so, please drop me a line.