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Thanks to Gerry McDonald for this timely pinch-hit about the plethora of pitching prospects in the Blue Jays' minor-league system. All those talented arms need a place to go, but there are only so many rotation spots in the full-season leagues. Gerry gives an intelligent, well-reasoned explanation of which pitchers should start where and why. Thanks, Gerry!




While General Managers are putting together their rosters in the winter and early spring, their minor-league farm directors are doing the same. Team rosters at the upper levels of the minor leagues have a mix of prospects and veterans. At the lower levels, teams include prospects and fillers. Syracuse's 2003 roster had veterans like Doug Linton, Bruce Aven and Gary Burnham filling out the lineups, with Jason Arnold, Jason Werth and Gabe Gross representing the prospects.

The winter of 2003 presents a nice problem for Dick Scott, the Blue Jays' Farm Director. He has too many starting pitchers. That's right, too many. Scott will have a tough task to fit them all in. Some pitching prospects who have been featured in the Batters Box minor-league summaries will not be able to find a rotation spot.

I'm going to play Farm Director and help Dick do his job. Then you, the reader, can make your suggestions too. Who says a bunch of guys trolling the internet while ignoring their real jobs can't do Dick Scott's job for him?

In 2003, the Jays' full-season teams (Syracuse, New Haven, Dunedin, and Charleston) had 23 pitchers who started ten or more games. At five starters per team, that means the base requirement is 20 starters, with a few swingmen required to cover for injury, promotions, etc. Four of those 23 are unlikely to be starting for the Jays teams in 2004. They are Corey Thurman (gone), Doug Linton (gone), Evan Thomas and Mike Smith. I am assuming the latter two will be in the bullpen at Syracuse.

That leaves 19 returning starters. But the Jays have Justin Miller coming back from surgery (isn't Justin Miller always coming back from surgery?) There is also the possibility that either Mark Hendrickson or Josh Towers could drop down to AAA. Then I have to remember the Auburn pitchers who are due to move up to full-season teams. At Auburn, the Jays had three pitchers who started more than ten games, plus five others who split their time between starting and relieving. Finally, I have to remember Francisco Rosario and Chris Leonard, who were injured last year.

That gives Dick Scott, and me, a pool of 30 starters for 20 spots. John Wesley, who made 8 starts for Charleston, is not included. I did not include part-time starters in 2003. Keep in mind, none of these 30 guys are stiffs. Only one had an ERA over 5.00 in 2003: Diego Markwell, who was a top prospect after 2002. Four others had ERAs over 4.00. So we have 25 pitchers with ERAs less than 4.00, fighting over 20 jobs. Some of them are going to feel robbed.

Who are the 30 candidates?

Jason Arnold
Vinny Chulk
Justin Miller
Mark Hendrickson/Josh Towers
Cam Reimers
Dave Gassner
Dustin McGowan
David Bush
Vince Perkins
Chad Pleiness
Jesse Harper
Chris Baker
Peter Bauer
Diego Markwell
Brandon League
DJ Hanson
Sandy Nin
Ismael Ramirez
Neomar Flores
Charles Talanoa
Josh Banks
Kurt Isenberg
Tom Mastny
Jamie Vermilyea
Shaun Marcum
Danny Core
Chad Mulholland
Justin James
Francisco Rosario
Chris Leonard

Who goes where to start the year?

First question: how should I allocate pitchers between teams? I could start at the top and look to move everyone up one level where possible, and leave some of the lesser prospects at the same level for a second year. This is the union way to go: seniority counts. Alternatively, I could determine who are the premium prospects, put them where I want them to start, and fill in around them with others. I will take this approach.

Who are the premium guys that I want to place?

The AAA level is easy. Jason Arnold and Vinny Chulk have to be in AAA. Similarly, Dustin McGowan and David Bush are premium prospects, as is Brandon League. Vince Perkins had a 2.45 ERA at Dunedin in 2003, allowing less than 0.7 hits per inning pitched. His problem is walks allowed, but if he can fix that, he would jump up to the elite list. From last year's draft, Jamie Vermilyea (assuming he is converted to the rotation), Josh Banks and Kurt Isenberg are key. That makes nine. Nine out of 30 is enough, an average of three pitchers from High A to AAA. Chulk is probably the least key here, but his proximity to the majors will let me keep him on the list. Just missing the cut are Jesse Harper (2.54 ERA at Dunedin) and Tom Mastny (2.26 ERA at Auburn).

Where will I put them?

Arnold and Chulk go to Syracuse, while JP has suggested Bush may start at AAA too. Last year, Bush and McGowan spent the first half at Dunedin and the second half at New Haven. The Jays like to split the seasons of their top prospects, half a year at a lower level and the second half one level up. Last year, Russ Adams, Gabe Gross, Aaron Hill, Jason Arnold, Dustin McGowan, Dave Bush, Jamie Vermilyea, and Brandon League all followed this pattern. The team wants players to have a strong first half to build their confidence; then they have the opportunity to experience the higher level for two and a half months. If they play well, they are set for next year. If they struggle at the next level, it will only be for a half season; then they have the winter to work on their game for the higher level of competition. Following this pattern, I would have expected Bush and McGowan to start at Double-A and move up mid-season. But for now, let's go with JP and say Bush will go to AAA, McGowan to AA. As Farm Director, I have to follow my boss's "suggestions."

League was promoted to Dunedin in mid-2003. As a 20-year-old, he was young for the league and it showed, with an ERA over 4.00. I will leave him there to get off to a good start in 2004. Perkins could follow the same path, but the Jays have a logjam at Dunedin; so I will push him up to AA. Last year's draftees (Banks, Vermilyea and Isenberg) jump two levels to Dunedin. This bypasses Charleston, but if you are on a fast-track, you have to move up quickly (Bush skipped Charleston last year). So I have placed my nine premiere prospects, three at AAA, two at AA, and four at High-A.

Who else starts at AAA Syracuse?

Arnold, Chulk, Bush, and maybe Towers or Hendrickson. Justin Miller could start here if his arm is OK, or he could go to a warm-weather team if there are concerns about his arm. If Miller cannot go, or if Towers/Hendrickson are not here, then the candidates to fill the last spot are Dave Gassner, Cam Reimers and Chris Baker. Gassner would be the number-one backup. Cam Reimers is older than the others and his numbers are average at best. Gassner had a 2.79 ERA at AA, Baker 3.90. They still deserve a shot. However, they do not have great strikeout numbers. This often indicates that they would struggle in the major leagues. As first backup, Gassner has some hope of getting to start. For now, though, I have him in the pen with Baker and Reimers.

Who starts at AA Manchester?

McGowan and Perkins are #1 and #2. Then I have the AAA bullpen guys who could repeat AA. Diego Markwell started at Double-A last year, but did not pitch well enough to keep his spot: an ERA over 7.00 means Diego gets bullpen duty. There are other guys due to move up as well: Chad Pleiness, Neomar Flores and Jesse Harper each spent most of 2003 at Dunedin and are due to move up to the Eastern League. So we have seven candidates for three spots. Gassner, Reimers and Baker are out: they don't need another year of Double-A. Markwell has to prove himself again, in the bullpen. The three guys moving up will push the others out of the way. So my rotation is McGowan, Perkins, Pleiness, Harper and Flores, with Neomar (4.78 ERA at Dunedin) the one on the bubble. If Markwell regains his form, or if Gassner or Baker stay at AA, or if someone else moves up, Flores would the one to be dumped.

Who starts at A-Ball?

Future stars League, Banks, Vermilyea and Isenberg are in the rotation. DJ Hanson, Sandy Nin and Ismael Ramirez each started all of 2003 at Charleston and are due to move up to Dunedin. Their ERAs were 2.54 for Hanson, 2.89 for Nin and 3.02 for Ramirez. Hanson was the best of them and has the better peripheral numbers, so he gets the last spot. Also not making the cut are John Wesley (3.48 at Charleston) and Charles Talanoa (3.71 at Charleston).

Charleston gets the remaining members of the Auburn crew: Tom Mastny, Shawn Marcum, Justin James, Chad Mulholland and Danny Core. Marcum, Core and Mullholland could come out of the bullpen. Marcum had great bullpen numbers in Auburn, but the Jays had too many starters there: Marcum could be converted to starting. Core and Mullholland's numbers were only average. Rosario or Leonard could get their starts here, as the others go to the pen. Nin or Ramirez could stay at Charleston for another year.

So here are your 2004 planned rotations:

TeamsSyracuseManchesterDunedinCharleston
1Jason ArnoldDustin McGowanJosh BanksTom Mastny
2Vinnie ChulkVince PerkinsBrandon LeagueShawn Marcum
3David BushChad PleinessJamie VermilyeaJustin James
4Mark HendricksonJesse HarperKurt IsenbergChad Mulholland
5Justin MillerNeomar FloresDJ HansonDanny Core
BullpenDave GassnerDiego MarkwellIsmael RamirezFrancisco Rosario
BullpenCam ReimersSandy Nin (or Dunedin?)Charles TalanoaChris Leonard
BullpenChris BakerPeter BauerJohn Wesley?


Who are the tough-luck losers?

Dave Gassner would be one. He had a 2.79 ERA at Double-A, yet now does not have a job. Baker, Nin and Ramirez also had good numbers, but there is a surplus in the Jays' system. When I place starters, ERA is a valuable measure, but equally valuable is major-league potential. Nin had a good ERA, but he does not project to be a major-league starter; League struggled at Dunedin, but he has a major-league fastball.

We also have to remember that three players missed 2003 due to injury: Rosario, Leonard and Miller. Chances are the Jays will have between one and three pitchers miss most of 2004 with injuries, so that should give the hard-luck losers their opportunity to start.

Finally, you can see from this exercise that Dick Scott's job will only get harder. The Jays hope their pitchers continue to develop this year, and some will be promoted mid-season. The Jays will select another batch of hurlers in June who will be pushing their way up next year. In 2004, there are eight pitchers moving up to full-season teams. In 2005, if we have eight more looking to move up, the same number of our 2004 starting pitchers will have to be moved out to make room. The Jays also hope that one or two of the 2003 draftees, who are starting at Dunedin, follow in Bush's footsteps and start in Triple-A in April 2005. By 2005, JP's dream will come true: a fully-stocked minor-league system with a surplus of pitching to trade or insert into the rotation.

The Jays' rotation in 2005 could include Arnold, Chulk or Bush. One or two of the Double-A pitchers (McGowan and Perkins?) could also push their way into contention by then. JP can pick and choose: it will be a nice problem to have.

So now you know what I would do if I were in Dick Scott's position. What would you do?
Pinch-Hit: Too Many Prospects? | 31 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Duane Grassbaug - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 03:49 PM EST (#82083) #
Scratch Diego Markwell, he was one of the 37! signed by the Cardinals during their quest to create a farm system using the highly scientific method of taking a whole bunch of well, stuff, throw it against the wall and see what sticks. overall nice breakdown....the future is looking good.
_Dylan B - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 04:07 PM EST (#82084) #
Considering Rosario was considered the Jays top prospect before his injury and BA had him rated in their top 5 overall(number 3 I believe), I'm thinking he either starts in Dunedin or relieves in Manchester. He did pitch half a season for Tennessee in 2002. Other then that, and Markwell being a Card now, I think that looks extremly likely destination for the pitchers.
_Chris - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 04:11 PM EST (#82085) #
Looks, good. Nice to finally have some arms in the system again. I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the extra arms leave the system though because the Jays still owe the Twins and A's players to be named later. How many of these guys are available in the minor league portion of the Rule V draft?
_Jabonoso - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 04:18 PM EST (#82086) #
At least Chacin is missing! Consider him in Syr bullpen or starting in Manchester.
_Dylan B - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 04:26 PM EST (#82087) #
My memeroy is not as good as I though, Rosario finished 2002 in Dunedin, not AA Tennessee. He was Baseball America's highest ranked pitcher going into the AFL that year(4th overall). This probally makes him at least a starter at Charleston if not Dunedin as a starter or reliever for the first 1-2 months of the season.
Coach - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 04:32 PM EST (#82088) #
Gerry, this is fine work. You have to make educated guesses, about the health of some guys (Miller, Rosario) and the organization's plans for others (Hendrickson) plus there will be other changes. Thanks for a solid picture of the system's depth. A year from now, it could be even more crowded.
_Ryan01 - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 04:33 PM EST (#82089) #
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Wesley have TJ surgery near the end of the season, meaning he'll be out for all of next year. I think we'll probably see Hanson or Nin in the fifth spot at Manchester instead of Flores, whom I think will fill the same role as swingman that he filled last year. Flores isn't really a high cieling guy with poor K rates, mostly filler IMO. Marcum may start but he's primarily a two-pitch pitcher right now with all the options already down there, I think he may stay in the pen and be on the fast track to the majors. Also, does anyone know if Miller is out of options yet?
_Chris - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 04:34 PM EST (#82090) #
Now we know why JP was drafting all of those college pitchers. League was drafted a year before JP even got here and he has been completely passed by guys drafted just last year simply because they have the college experience.
Mike Green - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 04:49 PM EST (#82091) #
There is some risk in promoting Perkins and Pleiness to double A at this stage. They haven't yet succeeded at high A. There are however not a whole lot of good options for the Manchester rotation.

On the other hand, there are too many good options for Dunedin/Charleston. Like Ryan01, I expect Rosario to start in the rotation at Dunedin with an early promotion to Manchester if he's doing well in the first 4-6 weeks.
_Ryan01 - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 04:56 PM EST (#82092) #
Hmm... I actually didn't mention Rosario, Mike, but I do agree. I think he'll return to Dunedin and be on the fast track to AA. One thing is for sure, Charleston should be fielding a stronger team than the last couple years and only getting stronger as the system starts backing up with quality college talent in the next few years.
Mike Green - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 05:05 PM EST (#82093) #
Sorry, Ryan, it was Dylan B. I skipped the coffee this morning, and I'm paying a price.
_Jordan - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 05:39 PM EST (#82094) #
Rosario sure will be interesting. He's a very small, slight guy (6'0, 160 lbs), and there was speculation that the torque from his fastball and curve were simply too much for his thin frame to handle. If so, then Gerry's prediction of a bullpen role for Rosario seems accurate; if he succeeds there, watch for him to rise quickly. Fella named Billy Koch followed exactly the same pattern.
Gerry - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 05:42 PM EST (#82095) #
Thanks for the feedback.

I did not know about Markwell, thanks.

I knew Wesley had gone on the DL in August, I was not sure why. If it is full TJ he will indeed miss most of 04.

My bullpen rows are just for starters who might be relieving. I did not include full relievers like Peterson, DeJong, Maureau, etc. I had included Chacin in this category.

Pitchers available in the rule V would be Gassner, Reimers, Baker, Bauer, and Nin. I have not put any of those as starters in my list.

Re: Marcum. Sometimes players who are expected to be relievers in the majors start in the minors to get regular work and build up their arm. Sometimes new draftees are put in the pen to save their arms. I am not sure where the Jays stand with Marcum on these. Maybe they are trying to teach him a new pitch. Starters are generally more valuable than closers so if they think he has the stamina they might try him as a starter. Ditto for Vermilyea in 04.

Mike, you are correct. There are a lot of arms at A ball so a couple of pitchers may be pushed to AA to smooth out the rotations. That is what I did to leave more room at Dunedin.
_Ryan01 - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 05:46 PM EST (#82096) #
Koch returned to the rotation following his TJ surgery and a lot of Jays fans, count me among them, thought at the time, and still do think that he should have been kept in the rotation. He was only put in the closers role when he hit the majors.

Rosario's frame is a concern. But I think the fact that he went from only playing DSL and short season ball up to full-season + AFL in one year had a little more to do with his injury than merely his frame. They just gave him too much work too fast.
_Jordan - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 05:48 PM EST (#82097) #
Ryan, good call about Koch; my error.
_Eric C - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 06:57 PM EST (#82098) #
Where do you expect Tracy "Tree" Thorpe to start at? He's coming off Tommy John surgery and was roughed up last season in his limited stint at Charleston. It's already been 18 months since the surgery, so he could be back fully healthy next season.

All reports say that he has power stuff, similar to McGowan, and has the body to handle starting. He's also still quite young and has plenty of time to improve. I'll say he's probably a better prospect than Core or Mulholland. Would you consider putting him in the Charleston rotation for 2004?
_Ryan01 - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 07:20 PM EST (#82099) #
http://www.battersbox.ca/archives/00001112.shtml
Thorpe actually had shoulder surgery, so the prognosis is not nearly as good for him as Rosario or Leonard. Click on my name for more info on him in Gideon's minor league report on Charleston
_Eric C - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 07:28 PM EST (#82100) #
Ah. My mistake.

Does anyone know if he will be fully healthy for next season?
Pistol - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 07:50 PM EST (#82101) #
Nice job laying this out Gerry.

I can't imagine that Hendrickson would go back to Syracuse. If he doesn't start in Toronto I would think he'd be in the pen. And while he wasn't the greatest starter this year I imagine that he would have some trade value. It's time to fish or cut bait with Hendrickson. I don't think the minors are an option at this point.

I can't say I'm too concerned about having 'too many' starting options. Things have a way of sorting them out on their own. However, I do think the number of possible starters at Dunedin and Charleston leaves the Jays in the position to use tandem starters. If you used tandem starters that'd give you 16 starters in Dunedin and Charleston (combined). I've been a proponent of this, but I have no idea if that's something that the Jays would or are considering (when's the next 'Ask JP'?).
_scout - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 09:32 PM EST (#82102) #
Agree with most of your pitching assumptions. Do not believe that Perkins or Pleiness is ready for AA hitters. I have seen plenty of all of these guys. Pleiness does not throw hard for a big guy and relies too much on other pitches that do not always work.See the end of last year for an example on Pleiness. Perkins has yet to show that he can throw strikes to hitters that are willing to be patient and not swing at everything thrown at them. He is still a two pitch guy.Thorpe will be at Charleston or Dunedin again. Rosario might start in a warm weather state(Florida).I believe that McGowan starts in Manchester along with Harper, but after that it gets really iffy.They might give Bauer one more shot at starting, but not real sure about that assumption. Could we see somebody from the AAA roster pushed back down to AA? Other than that I congratulate you on really good research.
_R Billie - Monday, November 24 2003 @ 10:15 PM EST (#82103) #
My list isn't much different. I just make the assumption that age/experience supercede high ceilings and control supercedes raw stuff.

AAA: Arnold, Bush, Chulk, Gassner, Miller, Chacin, Baker, Reimers

AA: McGowan, Harper, Hanson, Nin, Bauer, Rosario, Flores, Ramirez

A+: Perkins, League, Banks, Vermilyea, Isenberg, Pleiness, Talanoa, Wesley

A-: Mastny, Marcum, James, Mulholland, Core, Leonard, Harper, Templet


Manchester is the toughest to staff. Some guys are probably there that normally would have been given more time and at the same time there are some arms in Charleston that probably should be given the chance to be in Dunedin given their short season performances (Mastny and Marcum in particular).

Hopefully much of this will be sorted out by mid-season if at least a couple of arms from Dunedin can take the Bush express route to AA. I'm in the camp that believes Perkins has to demonstrate at least average command before being allowed to move up.
_Lee - Tuesday, November 25 2003 @ 02:39 AM EST (#82104) #
With the Blue Jays looking to add a #2 starter to it's rotation, I believe Vinny Chulk could be a prospect added to a deal if we were to go after someone like Miguel Batista. Then David Gassner would get his shot at AAA. I believe Gassner has turned the corner and should be a valuable commodity if he doesn't get plucked in the Rule 5 or as a PTBNL (Twins, Oakland).

Great list, I enjoyed it veru much!
_coliver - Tuesday, November 25 2003 @ 09:32 AM EST (#82105) #
The loss of Markwell officially ends the Gord Ash era of underage Latin ballplayers!

Markwell and Marcos Sandoval must have spent a record number of years in the New York Penn League!
_Jabonoso - Thursday, November 27 2003 @ 01:41 PM EST (#82106) #
There are at least three more starters for AAA signed as six year free agents: RHP Josue Matos, LHP Dave Maurer and LHP Bruce Chen.
I really like this signings and like the idea of Hendrickson going back to AAA to put things together and eventually attemp to put a J Moyer act...
It will be very interesting to see how starting staffs are assembled and the bullpens. With the exception of AAA that specific experimentation related to expected role in the majors are carried out, i would love to see the tandem starters thing put to place in AA and below.
_Cristian - Thursday, November 27 2003 @ 02:34 PM EST (#82107) #
Jabonoso,

I mentioned the signing of Matos a while back after reading a Sporting News article but I never saw it confirmed anywhere else. Where did you see this signing? In any case, I assume that Matos will be a bullpen candidate and won't see any time as a starter. His success in the minors comes solely from working out of the pen.
_Jabonoso - Thursday, November 27 2003 @ 03:39 PM EST (#82108) #
Both Matos and Maurer are listed in Syracuse roster ( mlb, official site ) but you are right there have not been official releases for both minor league signings. The three of them may be bullpen bound but they are very capable AAA starters too.
_Matthew Elmslie - Thursday, November 27 2003 @ 03:52 PM EST (#82109) #
I like the title here, 'Too Many Prospects'. Sounds like the great unwritten Nero Wolfe novel.
_Nikki - Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 08:12 PM EST (#82110) #
Chad Pleiness is REALLY HOTT!!! and all im sayin is that they should have A LOT more things about him on the internet
_Nikki - Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 08:12 PM EST (#82111) #
Chad Pleiness is REALLY HOTT!!! and all im sayin is that they should have A LOT more things about him on the internet
_Nikki - Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 08:13 PM EST (#82112) #
Chad Pleiness is REALLY HOTT!!! and all im sayin is that they should have A LOT more things about him on the internet
_John Neary - Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 08:23 PM EST (#82113) #
Well, you're helping to make up for the lack.
Pinch-Hit: Too Many Prospects? | 31 comments | Create New Account
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