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Gee, you'd think there were only four teams in the NL.

Congrats to Cruz (and Matheny too).

How many Gold Glove winners have been jettisoned by their teams after the season?

How many Gold Glove winners have been jettisoned by their teams after the season?

I can think of three Blue Jays off the top of my head, although the circumstances of their respective departures differed from Cruz's. Shawn Green won a Gold Glove 1999 and was dealt to the Dodgers (he may have actually been traded before the award was announced -- I can't recall), and both Roberto Alomar and Devon White won the award in 1995 and then left as free agents.

That's gonna be a nice line item on Cruz's resume when we select the Andujar winner for 2003. (Coming in early December, FYI.)

And we're already seeing really interesting names out there for the 2004 Andujar nominations coming on Groundhog Day.

I don't know where else to put it, but Cincinnati outfielder Dernell Stenson, playing in the AFL, was found murdered. He scored Cincy's last run of the season, hitting a home run in a 2-1 loss to Montreal. Shocking news, and obviously a great tragedy to see a reasonably promising young ballplayer murdered like that.

While I'll admit he plays a better corner OF than CF, he's no Gold Glove. And no he has not always been good at tracking fly balls! I've seen him take horrible routes countless times. That was no Gold Glover who horribly botched that fly ball against the Marlins either. I've never seen someone so ridiculously overrated by fans and now media.

I've never seen someone so ridiculously overrated by fans and now media.

Never? How about that shortstop in Gotham City?

Jeter? I'd take him over A-Rod and anyone else to lead my team at SS. The guy has started so many rallies to start comebacks that have gone unnoticed and is pure clutch. He's a pro's pro.

Getting back on topic..Jones, Edmonds, Cruz Jr. One of these things is not like the other. Whoever the player is that Cruz bumped off should be screaming bloody murder.

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The guy has started so many rallies

So has Jesse Jackson. Wonder if Steinbrenner is interested.

I'd take him over A-Rod

Priceless. There is exactly one thing that Derek Jeter does better than Alex Rodriguez on a ballfield, and that is hitting singles. A-Rod is better at *everything* else.

The difference between Derek Jeter, who is a terrific player, and Alex Rodriguez is like the difference between Sean Casey and Jeff Bagwell.

There is exactly one thing that Derek Jeter does better than Alex Rodriguez on a ballfield, and that is hitting singles.

ARod could scale back some of his power in order to hit more singles and he'd still hit for more power than Jeter. So Alex is probably better than Jeter at hitting singles too, but we'll never know.

The guy has started so many rallies to start comebacks that have gone unnoticed and is pure clutch.

Are you saying that because it's factually accurate or are you saying it because Jeter has about 300 more postseason AB than Rodriguez? Of course Derek will have started more rallies close and late in important games. It's quantity over quality, man.

(Sorry, Slater. I know I botched the quote.)

It's accurate because I'm seen him do it over and over again a high percentage of the time. Believe it or not obsessive stat analysis does not paint a complete picture of a player (such is the case for tossing Cruz Jr. a Gold Glove for having lots of assists). Intangibles exist. Jeter is a winner and a leader, so he gets my vote.

Just to clarify, I would pick A-Rod to start an expansion team, because his production is sick. But in a situation where I have a well-rounded club and I'm contending, I'd take Jeter at SS without thinking twice.

"Believe it or not obsessive stat analysis does not paint a complete picture of a player"

So why even try, right?

"(such is the case for tossing Cruz Jr. a Gold Glove for having lots of assists)"

I don't think it was statheads who gave Cruz the Gold Glove.

"Intangibles exist"

Of course they do. The ability of a player to get along with his teammates, to be charitable in the community, and to go an entire contract without being accused of rape are all valuable intangible qualities that I would want in a player. However, clutch hitting--something that would occur on the field--would have to be measured statistically for it to exist. And if it can be measured, then it is not intangible.

Mike M, George should definitely be interested. Jesse Jackson not only starts rallies, he bats left and there is that inviting porch in right field to take shots at.

Cruz JR!!!! YIKES!!!!!

Cristian:

I didn't say stat analysis was useless, I said it doesn't paint a complete picture. No need to go to extremes.

You're right, statheads didn't give Cruz a Gold Glove. Morons did. To me that comment is not extreme. :)

I also wasn't correlating clutch hits specifically with intangibles, though the kind of things he does are not really measured (for example fighting off tough pitches to draw a walk with the game on the line) and therefore do qualify as intangibles.

When I watch Jeter I see a winner with tremendous focus and instincts who garners the respect of the team around them and brings them up a level. That is why I'd want him as my SS, and that is my opinion. If the collective uber force of the ZLC wants to guffaw at my opinion (as previously noted) they can go right ahead, but they cannot say my opinion is definitely the wrong one.

For the record, as most of you know, I'm a huge Yankees fan and am thrilled that the best shortstop in Yankees history is playing in the Bronx right now. And I live in Dallas where I'm thrilled to have the opportunity to watch A-Rod, arguably the best shortstop in baseball history, up close and personal.

That all said, it's true that Jeter is clutch. His diving stops and three run-producing hits in Game 7 against the Marlins this year were the difference in ...

Oh, wait.

We tend to remember extremes. Bill Buckner was as "clutch" a player as Jetner but will always be remembered as The Guy Who Couldn't Field the Ground Ball. Jeter, apart from his deification by the NYC media, will always be The Guy Who Threw Out Giambi and The Guy Who Hit The First November Home Run. But -- say it with me everyone -- there really is "no such thing as 'clutch' hitting."

If I'm Brian Cashman and John Hart offers me A-Rod for Jeter straight up, I make that deal just as soon as I'm done cleaning the coffee off the front of my shirt where it has dribbled from my mouth hanging open in astonishment.

I'd also deal Jeter straight up for Garciaparra and I'd think hard about Tejada. Both are better hitters AND better fielders.

Let's focus here because we're treading into unproductive stats vs. sight territory.

Lurker, you can have any opinion you want. You're just basing your opinion that Jeter is the guy to take over ARod on strange information.

You've said that Jeter has "started so many rallies to start comebacks that have gone unnoticed and is pure clutch."

Arguable, but let's say for the sake of the discussion that Jeter is indeed 'clutch'. Well, how do you know that ARod isn't the same kind of player? He hasn't had the opportunities that Jeter has had in the postseason to show he's great in those situations. What is it about ARod that makes him not a "winner and a leader"? Because his teams haven't won? Isn't that sort of a GMs fault and not ARod's?

Lurker, I'm not guffawing. I do disagree, though.

Back in 1999, I would not have traded Derek Jeter for any shortstop, period, if I was the GM of a team in a contending cycle. He was an awesome top-of-the-order hitter with gap and better-than-gap power to all fields. He ran the bases effectively, made smart decisions and was a good clubhouse guy. Defensively, he was weak up the middle but good going to his right, and he had a strong, accurate arm.

Recently, though, two things have happened. His offensive production has declined, in part due to playing through injuries, and he's been surpassed by the elite SS's at the plate. Also, as has been well-documented, his defense has simply deteriorated beyond acceptable levels. Less range, less sure hands, less accuracy on his throws.

It's very common in today's sports media to label presently overrated players as having always been overrated or undeserving of esteem. Jeter has always had, as you mention, all the "intangible" traits you want in a championship club. And he once had the game, especially the offensive game, to justify his reputation. I don't think he does anymore, though.

Parenthetically, I should point out that I always shock friends and co-workers here in New York when I direct them to Vince Carter's 2000-01 stats. Every time I hear "most overrated player ever...he's never done anything...he's never scored or stayed healthy on a regular basis," I simply call up his stats from before his decline, and people assume they're reading a misprint. Usually, when a player becomes overrated, they were once at least good enough to be "rated."

Except Sandy Alomar Jr., that is.

"a href="http://www.aarongleeman.com/2003_10_26_baseballblog_archive.html">Aaron Gleeman's wrote a couple of articles about Derek Jeter's clutchness October 28 & 29. Definitely worth a read.

Oops. Here's the link.

Mike D, you have captured precisely my views on Derek Jeter in this thread and on Joe Morgan in the broadcasting thread. Just don't go changing your first name.

Right back at ya, Greenie!

Aagh! Is this our first Spam here at Batter's Box?

Block his ass! (By which I mean, block his IP address.)

Lurker,

I am quite confident that you do not know what "intangible" means. You said fighting off pitches to take a walk? That gets recorded. Forcing an opposing pitcher to throw more pitches than he would like to is one of the primary tenets of hey-let's-be-objective-and-measure-actual-performance-rather-than-listen-to-joe-morgan-ism.

Solid point, Mike D, Jeter used to be a great player. He is still a useful player, albeit a defensive liability.

Lurker, it would be interesting (but probably not possible) to conduct a study to see if Jeter's presence actually does increase the performance of those around him. We could call it the Dusty Baker Factor.

Let's be honest and admit that 'clutch' does not exist. I think it was Neyer: "hitting with two strikes is a skill, hitting with two outs is not."

It is pretty clear that Lurker is trying to provoke the ZLC (although not an official member, I do have a pinch-hit to my credit and another is forthcoming) by making a ludicrous claim such as "I would prefer Jeter to ARod". I guess it worked.

Jeter's primary goal on the field appears to be the maintenance of his look/image. He doesn't always make the play, but he always looks good on a magazine cover. ARod is better at baseball, Jeter is better at making both 14 year-old-girls and Tim McCarver swoon.

The primary goal is to win baseball games. Saying that you would prefer Jeter to ARod is the equivalent of saying: "I would prefer to have $1.00 than to have $2.00 because I like the look of the loon's ass on the one dollar coin."

It is pretty clear that Lurker is trying to provoke the ZLC

I doubt it. I know a bushel of New Yorkers -- including some of my own relatives -- who feel the same way about Jeter.

Remember, the talk about A-Rod signing with the Yankees (before he went to Texas) centered around his willingness to play third base, not Jeter's.

But today's news that the Yankees are pursuing Todd Walker at least suggests that (A) Soriano will either be in CF or dealt to KC for Beltran and (B) the tradition of horrendously overrated Yankee defensive middle infielders -- we call this "The Horace Clarke Effect" -- is set to continue!

Enjoyed reading this thread. I love the stat-packed info provided by the ZLC et al... best baseball coverage anywhere on the net. However, in this case, and regarding Jeter, I tend to agree with Lurker. A-Rod is a great guy with incredible skill and is also a pro's pro. However, he just has not proven he can win. And winning, IMO, is not best measured by win shares. It's measured best by rings on the fingers. If I was Texas, I would trade A-Rod for Jeter straight up... use the extra dollars on pitching, and enjoy a winning season next year for the first time in a little while. Jeter would be a terrific influence on guys like Blalock & Texeira.

However, he just has not proven he can win.

This is ridiculous. Put ARod on the 1998-2000 Yankees instead of Jeter, surrounded by Bernie and Pettitte and Cone and Wells and Clemens and Rivera and all those parts...you don't think he'd have collected some rings? The team won, not Jeter.

schill, there would not be too many extra dollars. Jeter over ARod? It's laughable and I can only assume that you know that. Rings on the fingers? If I recall correctly, Mike Maksudian has a ring from playing briefly with the 92 Jays; ARod has none. By way of schillian logic: Maksudian is better than ARod. Knowing that truth is a defence to defamation, I can say this: you are insane.

Oh... and by the way... regarding Cruz Jr. I think a San Franciso fan described it best when he commented [regarding a projected return of Cruz Jr. back to the Giants in 2004]:

----------------------------------------------
[spits milk out nose]

Dear god, no! No! Noooooooooooooooooooooo...

----------------------------------------------

Cruz should enjoy this award... cause it won't come around again.

I expected someone would come back with such an argument.

Guess we have our differences Leigh. You think like a GM. I think like an owner. I'd probably fire you. :)

I think there are a few other people out there who'd agree with Lurker and I.

We certainly do have our differences, shill. Yeah, there are people out there who would agree with you and Lurker, like Tim McCarver. You probably would fire me... and hire Kenny Williams. Our difference is not that I think like a GM and you think like an owner, our difference is that I think like a robot and you think like an alchemist, and both have their shortcomings.

Quote from Leigh:

I like the look of the loon's ass on the one dollar coin.

Context? What's context?

Our URL friend has posted in a number of threads. I'm going through each thread and deleting them; sorry for the static. Mike, we may not need to do any IP blocking, since they usually just drop in, paste their bill to our telephone pole and leave. But if he returns, it blockin' time.

Hahahahahaha

"And winning, IMO, is not best measured by win shares. It's measured best by rings on the fingers."

I'm surprised you aren't arguing that Luis Sojo is better than ARod.

the laugh was for spicol, not you, Jordan (for whom I do have some questions about the CBA and what it can do for me in my search for employment after graduation).

Blocking a spammer won't matter. He (or she) will only use that e-mail address once. It'll be different tomorrow. Blocking the ISP or domain might be problematic if it's a legitimate e-mail provider.

He has to keep the same email address for his eBay account doesn't he?

What's funny about the "Jeter is Clutch" argument is that Jeter hasn't won anything lately. If success is measured by the rings on your fingers (and I don't believe it is), then Jeter's been a loser for three years now. On top of that, he's been earning a salary that isn't too far removed from A-Rod; he made $15.6 million in 2003.
So since neither has won anything, both are in the same stratosphere, and Rodriguez is an undisputably better hitter and probably a better fielder, I find any "Jeter is better" arguments to be based more on Jeter's reputation than skills.

Well, I ended up blocking him anyway, mostly out of spite, after deleting him from nine different threads. One of these days I'm going to start my own Website called www.APlaceInHell.com, and there I'm going to assemble a list of all the people who do dirty little evil things to make life more convenient for themselves and less convenient for others, from the person who parks in two spaces to the person who doesn't flush the public toilet to the person who spams Websites and newsgroups with promotional crap. I invite other nominees.

Leigh, in addition to the law student issue, you might check out the CBA Young Lawyers' Conference in your jurisdiction, or the Section pertaining to your area of legal interest. The CBA doesn't do as much as I would like for newly called students seeking work, but there are good networking and related opportunities. COMN and e-mail me when you have the time, and I can provide a little more info.

Er, that should be "salary stratosphere". (just to avoid any confusion)

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Spamming is against eBay's TOS (terms of service). Someone should send a note off to eBay about him.

Mike

Thanks, Mike -- good to know and good to do.

Just be careful insulting people you don't know boys. Leigh... better judgement will likely help you with that job hunt. The insane comment was fine... but the Kenny Williams thing was too much to take. :)

FYI... I'd hire JP... and then I'd manage him.

shill,

Didn't think that I was insulting you, only your view on Jeter/ARod. Sorry if it sounded personalised. Decorum is important, I recognise this. I get fearfully reactionary with things that I don't understand, such as you view on Jeter/ARod; that's all.

Fair enough... and no worries Leigh.

Explaining my view one final time.. I promise to disappear thereafter for another several months or so.

Is A-Rod the best shortstop in the game? Absolutely.

Is he worth $25M a season for 10 years. Absolutely not.

Has he ever proven to be a "winner". Not by any definition that I'm comfortable with... and despite playing on some teams that *should* have been quite good.

Would I swap A-Rod for Jeter and save nearly $10M next year plus a lot of additional coin between now and 2010. Absolutely.

I believe that such a trade would make Texas, (assuming that $10M would be spent on a decent pitcher or two) who's future lies in the hands of guys like Blalock and Texeira, a better team next year.

Someone apparently brought up that I was trying to antagonize the ZLC with my opinion. Nope. Basically I stated a view which was mocked by several people, obviously because my opinion was not founded by statistics. I have a right to take exception to that, since as you can see I haven't ridiculed anyone else for stating they'd rather have A-Rod, though I'd disagree.

These quotes nicely summarize why I'm a big Jeter fan (though I'm a Jays fan and have been for 27 years...I'm sure that surprises some of you who think I like the Yankees SS because he's pretty):

"We lost, so what does the streak mean now?" said Jeter, the former Kalamazoo Central standout who was 3-for-4 in Game 5. "That's why you don't pay any attention to statistics." - Jeter following a question about the Yankees extra-inning postseason win streak

"He's special," manager Joe Torre said. "Especially when it comes to this time of year.

"Not that he isn't this way every single game he plays, but in these games, when he puts the uniform on and gets into the dugout, you can just see how determined he is; everybody just feeds off that."

"You're right about his statistics," Torre said. "When you look at them -- aside from the fact that he has more hits than anyone else in the postseason -- he doesn't knock in a lot of runs or things like that.

"But when you get to the postseason, he does things that are really important to a team.

"He knows what it takes to win, and I think that's important. A lot of people talk about winning, but I don't think they really know how hard it is to do. He understands you can't boast or brag about it. You just have to go out there and do it, then later you can admire what you've accomplished." - Torre

"I've always been impressed with Jeter, although this is the first time I've seen him up close," McKeon said. "He's impressed me as a big-time player. Along with Bernie Williams, those are two guys you don't want to see come up in the clutch because you know something's going to happen. They know ways to get it started or to deliver a clutch blow." - Jack McKeon

Lurker, it's not mocking. It's difference of opinion. I asked you some legitimate questions because I want to understand where you're coming from. I'll reiterate them now:

Arguable, but let's say for the sake of the discussion that Jeter is indeed 'clutch'. Well, how do you know that ARod isn't the same kind of player? He hasn't had the opportunities that Jeter has had in the postseason to show he's great in those situations. What is it about ARod that makes him not a "winner and a leader"? Because his teams haven't won? Isn't that sort of a GMs fault and not ARod's?

I'm not basing it on World Series wins or postseason opportunity or anything like that, it's just what I see in the guy when I watch him. It's how he carries himself. I consider A-Rod a pro too, but to me he lacks something that Jeter posesses. It's not quantifiable.

If I were a pro baseball player, I'd rather be out there fighting with Jeter than A-Rod. He has a way of leading by example that's invaluable. As Torre says, everyone feeds off of that. To me A-Rod seems very Cal Ripkenish in that he's great but seems isolated from the rest of his team. Not to imply he's a cancer, but he doesn't seem to inspire those around him like Jeter does. That's the best way I can put it.

To anyone who relies purely on stats to dictate player opinions that may seem irrelevant, but I believe that's what makes you win. Though baseball is considered an individual sport in many regards, mentally it cannot be if you wish to succeed.

As a sidenote, for every person that believes Jeter was just a part of a great team than won championships, I can argue it's still possible he was the one who drove them to win. And for every person who states "well they haven't won lately" I can argue that Jeter's influence is what got them so far in the playoffs in the first place.

The point is, just because I can't quantify or prove with hard facts that a team would be better off with Jeter leading, it doesn't mean it's not true. Not everything is black and white (or statistical for that matter).

http://economics.about.com
To me A-Rod seems very Cal Ripkenish in that he's great but seems isolated from the rest of his team.

Is this a joke?!? Ripken was the heart and soul of the Orioles, particularly after Eddie Murray left.

Note: If you don't want people ragging on your hero because he didn't put up the best numbers, don't going ragging on other people's heroes.

Mike

1. Jeter isn't my hero, say whatever you want, I won't cry.
2. Hmm, I don't recall saying anything about Cal before my last post. Regardless, I do recall media stories which included Ripken staying at different hotels than the rest of the team. Sounds isolated to me. But even if I'm wrong and he wasn't it doesn't change my opinion of A-Rod.

Thank you for your input.

Lurker

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Jeter isn't my hero, say whatever you want, I won't cry.

It's obviously bugging you since you keep feeling the need to respond.

I do recall media stories which included Ripken staying at different hotels than the rest of the team.

So? It's not if the media has never said anything bad about Jeter. Doesn't seem to influence your thinking at all.

You like Jeter because, well, you like Jeter. That's fine. But it doesn't make him a better player than A-Rod, despite what you might say.

I say that Freddie Mercury was a better shortstop than Honus Wagner. Just because I can't quantify or prove with hard facts that a team would be better off with Mercury leading, it doesn't mean it's not true.

Mike

Freddie Mercury and Honus Wagner in the same sentence ... as a comparative no less. I think that may well deserve nomination for some sort of award.

I couldn't resist Googling it ...
"Honus Wagner" and "Freddie Mercury"
... provides three results:

Dan McLean Jr's 15 Dead Guys ... this is extremely amusing and quite useful on a Friday lunch hour.

A thread on Primer -- really, who's surprised? -- that evolves into a metaphorical comparison of rock stars and baseball players. Mercury is Reggie Jackson, incidentally. while apparently Wagner is Richard Thompson.

Some sort of 1991 timeline which mentions the Wagner card Gretzky and McNall sold and, of course, the death of Mercury.

Coincidence? I think not.

Game 7, two outs bottom of the ninth, Yankees lead the Marlins 9-0. Tim McCarver takes the play-by-play reins: "There's a ground ball to short, Mercury fires the ball to Johnson, Yankees win. Mercury's singing "We Are the Champions" so loud, you can hear him at the back of the upper deck. What a clutch player he is!"

To anyone who relies purely on stats to dictate player opinions that may seem irrelevant, but I believe that's what makes you win. Though baseball is considered an individual sport in many regards, mentally it cannot be if you wish to succeed.

I don't think that any of us here think the intangible stuff is irrelevant, least of all me. I'm middle of the road when it comes to stats/sight but I do think you need to fully understand both in order to have the best perspective. Just as some would exaggerate the clarity of the picture stats only provide, you can just as easily go the other way and say that the picture provided by observation of a player alone can be pretty muddled too.

I consider A-Rod a pro too, but to me he lacks something that Jeter posesses. It's not quantifiable.

Ok, so there's an intangible quality you feel Jeter possesses that ARod doesn't. Fair enough. One could say that the gap in the production and defense of the two players goes a long way in ARod making up, and probably exceeding, any gap in intangibles. But it's pretty hard to make that comparison so for simplicity's sake, let's stick with evaluating the stuff we can observe.

Do you think it's at all possible that you don't have the same amount of information about both players and because of that, you're being swayed? Here's why I think this may be the case:

1) Jeter plays in New York, which gets more media coverage than either Texas or Seattle.
2) The New York media, while it can unjustifiably shred a player to pieces, can also glorify another without a legitimate reason, a la Jeter.
3) Jeter plays on national TV more than ARod, giving you a greater chance of seeing something great happen.
4) Jeter has played 10 times the postseason games ARod has, giving you a great chance of seeing something great happen at a crucial time.
5) You're getting your information about both players second and third-hand, so "your" observations really become interpretations of the observations of others. This goes for watching on TV too. Even if you are seeing the game with your own eyes, you're influenced by what the Director decides to show you...my own impression is that the great plays New York players make are highlighted by replay upon replay, moreso than players from other teams.

Observations, and consideration of a player's attitude and leadership and smarts, are all very complimentary to stats when it comes to evaluation of a player...absolutely. But unless you can watch both players day in and day out from a first-person perspective, I don't see how you can say for certain that Jeter has all those skills and ARod doesn't.

You can like Jeter more than ARod...that's your prerogative. But you have no basis for saying that ARod doesn't have the skills you think Jeter has in spades and that's my major point of disagreement.

But unless you can watch both players day in and day out from a first-person perspective

Been there. Done that. A-Rod wins. No contest.

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Freddie Mercury and Honus Wagner in the same sentence ... as a comparative no less. I think that may well deserve nomination for some sort of award.

Thanks! I love the Batter's Box because I can bring up Freddie Mercury without someone making a Mike Piazza joke.

Mercury vs. Wagner is a pretty important argument, right up there Willie Stargell vs. Elton John and Mott the Hoople vs. The Seattle Pilots.

Mike

Mike M, The latest Belle and Sebastian disc apparently contains a song about, of all things, Mike Piazza. You don't want to know.

Belle & Sebastian's "Piazza, New York Catcher," is a gorgeous song, though it's as much about baseball as you'd expect from a Scottish band. It's really just talking about going to San Francisco, and Piazza only gets mentioned in one line. It does have this verse, though;

"The catcher hits for .318 and catches every day
The pitcher puts religion first and rests on holidays,
He goes into cathedrals and lies prostrate on the floor
He knows the drink affects his speed, he's praying for a doorway
Back into the life he wants and the confession of the bench
Life outside the diamond is a wrench."

Seriously great album.

Ryan,

You forgot the best line: "Piazza New York Catcher are you straight or are you gay."

Great album btw.

... I do recall media stories which included Ripken staying at different hotels than the rest of the team. Sounds isolated to me.

One family trip we took to Los Angeles in the mid-to-late 1980s, we stayed at the same hotel the Orioles (who were playing the Angels, obviously), and I saw Cal Ripken and Eddie Murray, checking in, walking together, carrying their own luggage, smiling at the people who politely said "hi." I also saw Mike Flanagan and Rick Dempsey, both of whom were also extremely cordial. Maybe it's the cynicist/"things were better in the good 'ol days of baseball" part of me, but there's no question today's players are less accesible. It's not good or bad, per se, it just is. When we lived in the San Diego area, we lived in the same town, Poway, that Randy Jones, Merv Rettemund, and a few others players lived in. On a few occasions my dad and some of his friends bowled with some of the players. Not near the players, not the same night as the players, but with the players. They drank beer together, they talked about baseball, and there was no veiled arrogance on the player's side, no unruly autograph demands from my dad, his friends, or anyone else around town. Days dead and buried, that's for sure. Apparently Mike Mussina coaches high school football in his small home town in Pennsylvania, but maybe that is just another urban legend, right up there with Jeremy Giambi being a good baseball player.

As for Cal, in case you didn't know this already, Ripken is TALL. Granted, I'm a 5'7 dynamo, but when you see these guys up close, it's quite shocking. (But Ripken wasn't as tall as Rosie Greer, who for some reason also happened to be staying at the same hotel.

At the opposite end, one time my friend and I were going to a Padres game in San Diego, also in the mid-80s, and we arrived at Jack Murphy Stadium quite early. Lo and behold, who should come strolling up but Mr. NL October, Steve Garvey (accompanied by the late Eric Show and another player I didn't recognize). And let me say this about Garvey: he is SHORT. If he was taller than I was it was by no more than a half-inch. Honest engine. But those forearms. Wow. My friend, who is just over six-feet tall and who went on to play ball at USC as a walk-on, commented that if Garvey can make it, so could I. Ah, my friends. Always the optimists.

At any rate, it must have been August or September, because while we were waiting outside, and after Garvey and his companions had entered the ballpark, six HUGE guys wearing San Diego Chargers half shirts -- and pants, thankfully -- emerged from one of those secret doors I liked to imagine existed at these magical stadiums. These guys were enormous, absolutely enormous, and I came away with even more respect than ever for people who play football. The contrast from these beasts to Garvey was one of the strongest I've ever seen. Utterly insane -- and this was before the days when 6'6" 330 offensive lineman resided only in Washington, DC.