I was at that game. We sat about 20 rows behind home plate. Directly behind Johnny Damon's hotty wife and a little in front and to the left of Carp's family. Apart from seeing Fenway for the first time, the highlights were talking to Eric Hinske on the field before the game started and getting a death glare from Jose Offerman's wife after some good old fashioned taunting.

Carp was so frustrating to watch. So much potential, such a beautiful delivery and lively arm, yet so inconsistent and brittle.

JP was actually talking about keeping Carpenter longer term at some points during the 2002 season. Unfortunately he just couldn't stay healthy. At least JP didn't ink him to a multiyear deal before the season as the previous regime had apparently promised to do.

Are we sure the jays wouldn't take a chance on Carpenter? You could certainly get him cheaply, and I think his biggest problem is staying healthy. After all, he may have been the jays best pitcher in 2001, albeit, with an average year. I think if you get him real cheap, why not take a chance on him? I think he might be worth the relatively small risk.

Speaking of released players, Ryan Dempster has been released by the Reds. He's only 26...could the Jays' coaching staff turn him back into the guy so highly touted in the late 90s?

Dempster could be a good pickup. Sign Carp and Dempster to minor league deals and see what they can do in spring training.

Carpenter apparently wasn't happy with how JP handled his situation in 2002. I don't think there's any chance he'd have anything to do with the Jays right now. (not that I think it's that big a loss).

Notwithstanding injury, there is also the problem that Carpenter is over-rated. His fastball has excellent velocity and reasonable control, but is somewhat straight. He has that superb if occasionally unreliable curve ball, and a pretty substandard changeup. Altogether this meant that if he couldn't keep his fastball down, the ball ended up as a souvenir for a fan in the outfield seats, and with only his curve as the offspeed stuff, he often had to go back to his fastball when behind in the count.

For his career: ERA 4.83, BAA 2.87
Year 2000: OPS against 864
Year 2001: OPS against 793
Year 2002: OPS against 845
He's never had an ERA below 4 and has a platoon split (he's worse against lefties).

Those are mediocre numbers. Carpenter has lived for years on his potential and has been a disappointment. You might take a flier on him because of that wonderful (pre-injury) arm, but it's a minimum salary job. And as S.K. above has mentioned, he wasn't happy at the end of his career here when he was (quite rightly in my opinion) let go.

(i)Roy Halladay is discussing a multi-year deal with the Blue Jays that should net him at least $30 million guaranteed.(/i)

I must have missed this. Where is this from? Or is this a well thought out assumption. Thanks.

Ryan Dempster is another dreadful disappointment and similiar numbers to Chris Carpenter (arguably slightly better) and has a similar platoon split.

OPS Against
Year 2000: 725
Year 2001: 785
Year 2002: 834
Year 2003: 845

Hmmm. A not too encouraging trend.

Much like Carpenter you *could* be getting a bargain -- "Think of all the potential!" -- but the actual performance is mediocre. I wouldn't throw much money his way either. He is younger than Carpenter and doesn't have the bad history with the Jays. He's Canadian too, which means it might make an easier sign.

Of course you don't give either a lot of money. That is why you sign them to minor league deals and invite them to Spring Training. Both have been bad enough with enough questions over the last couple of years that a minor league deal could be the best they could do

In Carpenter's case it probably will be the best he can do, but he was a bit grumpy last time around...

Hijack:
Former Blue Jay First Baseman/DH John Olerud has won his 3rd Gold Glove with Seattle. He was 1 of 4 mariners to win a Gold Glove this year. Way to go John ! Also Edgar is back for another year for Seattle. Sigh ' No Blue Jay winners this year '
More info at Seattle.com and Espn.

AL Gold Glove Winners:
C Molina Ana
1B Olerud Sea
2B Boone Sea
SS Rodriguez Tex
3B Chavez Oak
OF Cameron Sea
OF Hunter Min
OF Ichiro Sea
P Mussina NYY

Hard to argue with these choices, though I might have given a slight nod to Tampa's Travis Lee at first. I still think they should have a LF/CF/RF designation for both Gold Gloves and Silver Sluggers among the outfield, though.

For what it's worth, I'd give the CF Gold Glove to Cameron and the LF Gold Glove to Garret Anderson.

I'd give the RF Gold Glove to Magglio Ordonez, who glides his way to just about everything (a Mike Cameron clone) and I think I might go with Carl Crawford in left but Anderson's really good. Crawford will eventually win one legitimately, I think.

You can't go wrong with any of the four real gold glovers in center... Beltran, Wells, Cameron, Hunter. All fantastic... it's a golden age for outfield play.

I wouldn't be afraid of a contract with 1 guaranteed year at 800,000 to Dempster with two team (mutual?) options with a base at about a million and incentives (I'd say 25 starts) that could bring it up closer to 1.75 each year.

Demptster is going to miss most of next season, right?

At this point is there any more reason to believe in Dempster than there is to believe in Tanyon Sturtze? We're talking about a guy with a career 50-55 record, 5.01 ERA in the NL, and 503 walks to 778 strikeouts in 964 innings. He couldn't hold down a job in Cincinatti with a decent pitching coach. I'm really not sure what the Jays are going to do with him. Much like Dustin Hermanson hit a wall and was never the same I'm not sure if there's any coming back for Dempster. I'm pretty sure the Jays have had their fill of starters who can't find the plate.

I could be wrong and maybe Dempster can have a Matt Clement type turnaround. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

It's hard to see Carp being too bitter about past negotiations, seeing as the Jays have proven to be right about their decision, and they did still offer him a deal, which he rejected. I think he can still have some fleeting success, but even if healthy he'll never be a big winner unless he can curb those 6-game stretches where he can't locate his fastball at all. I'd like to see him succeed, but I am sceptical.

Presuming Carpenter and Dempster are healthy, I don't see what the harm would be in signing them to minimum size contracts. The Jays need a lot of starting pitching and if just one of them could provide stable starts for a full season it will have been well worth it. They've both had good stretches in the past. Remember though, the jays signed Sturtze to $1 million for last season. So long as you can get these guys for the minimum or maybe a little more, it would be worth it, but if it costs anymore, I wouldn't bother. I'm more convinced that Carpenter can turn it around than Dempster. I never thought he was awesome, but when he was healthy, he was a capable major league pitcher, easily able to be a fourth or fifth starter on most teams.

or is this a well thought out assumption?

Yup. I'm building my career on those.

Sure, sign he pair if possible, but make the contracts near league minimum with incentives. That way nothing lost if they don't perform, but pay them accordingly if they do.

Demptster is going to miss most of next season, right?

The usual recovery time for Tommy John surgery is 8-12 months so he could be back anytime between April and July. This would be a minor league contract kind of situation.

Yup. I'm building my career on those.

Hey Jordan, I'm doing that too!...well it's either that or flipping burgers, but what else can you do with a BA?

http://economics.about.com
but what else can you do with a BA?

Origami.

Mike

but what else can you do with a BA?

You could go to law school... and then flip burgers [the way things are looking for me]

I'm a bit more positive about Ryan Dempster than some other posters. For me he looks like a classic guy who's been pitching hurt. Granted he's been bad since 2001, but as a 23 year old he put up a 226 inning-209 S.O.-3.66 ERA season...thats pretty damn good. If healthy I think he can do it again. He had his Tommy John in August, so I'd say 2004 is a write off.

He'll be only 28 in 2005, given the signability advantage of being a Canuck and providing he'd take a low base, I'd be all over him. I think team's which have faith in the high recovery factor regarding Tommy John surgery can gain a competetive advantage.

http://www.cba.org/national
You could go to law school... and then flip burgers [the way things are looking for me]

[shameless plug] Before giving in to Ronald, though, you should read this [/shameless plug]

Is that guy's name really Dirk Silversides?

That's a great name.