Too bad...this looked like a really good fit for Cito. Though he's been away from the direct involvement in the game so long which may have worked against him. I'm not sure what Guillen's qualifications were but if I thought I had a playoff calibre team I'd definately choose a manager that had been their twice and can generally get the most out of hitters.

The Sox should have hired Cito as a bench coach for Guillen and that way there could have been someone on the bench who had been there before and of course, a suitable replacement if a change was needed. Sort of like how JP put Tosca in as Martinez's bench coach and then quickly replaced Martinez with Tosca

The Sox should have hired Cito as a bench coach for Guillen

Not them I'm defending the decision to hire Guillen (Frank, swing the bat. Walks are for sissies.), but I think hiring Gaston would have unwittingly conveyed the message to Guillen that plan B was sitting right there on the bench should his team start slowly.

And I'm not sure Gaston is bench coach material. Gaston is the type of manager who needs a bench coach, or, failing that, Henke and Ward in the bullpen.

Gaston would also never take a second fiddle job.

The Jays hired three new minor league coaches. (link)

Brad Arnberg who began the season as a major league pitching coach for the Marlins will oversee the important arms in AAA Syracuse while Rick Adair takes over the same duties for AA after being the Minor League pitching coordinator for the Braves the last four years.

I'm glad that Arnsberg was given another chance, and I'm half glad that it was with the Jays. If you don't remember, Arnsberg had a few harsh words with Loria after he was let go by the Marlins earlier this season. The link I just supplied comes with a few interesting tidbits, including this one:

Spooneybarger, who clashed with popular pitching coach Leo Mazzone in Atlanta last season, called Arnsberg ``by far the best pitching coach I've ever had in my life.''

''I don't know if management here has even played baseball before,'' Spooneybarger said. ``But if they had, they'd probably like to have a guy like him as their pitching coach. I think anybody here would tell you that. When you have a good relationship with people, it hurts to see them go.''

I hope that Arnold, Bush et al. perform well under his leadership (as do most people around these parts I reckon).

You know what though, the numbers don't seem to lie. The pitchers who were hurt were all hurt on Arnsberg's watch and with the new pitching coach the staff seemed to stay fairly healthy. How much is the pitching coach and how much is the manager leaving 22 and 23 year olds in for 120+ pitches fairly often? That's hard to say.

But I assume that Toronto doesn't see overwork as a problem with him. I'm sure they sat down with him and went over their practices with young pitchers including pitch counts and the like. I would hope so because he'll be looking over some of the most important arms to the near future of the organization in McGowan, Bush, Arnold, and Peterson.

Yeesh.

And Spooneybarger knows so much about what makes a great pitching coach?

Will Carroll told a pretty scary story about Arnsberg at September's BP Pizza Feed. I don't feel good about this at all.

From the R Billie Canoe link:
Bernie Whitt, a roving instructor
Any relation to Ernie?

#11797 Posted 11/04/2003 01:04 AM by R Billie:

You know what though, the numbers don't seem to lie. The pitchers who were hurt were all hurt on Arnsberg's watch and with the new pitching coach the staff seemed to stay fairly healthy. How much is the pitching coach and how much is the manager leaving 22 and 23 year olds in for 120+ pitches fairly often? That's hard to say.

How much was Torbourg?

#11798 Posted 11/04/2003 01:52 AM by Jurgen:

Yeesh.

And Spooneybarger knows so much about what makes a great pitching coach?

Will Carroll told a pretty scary story about Arnsberg at September's BP Pizza Feed. I don't feel good about this at all.

I have more faith in the current BJ management than Will F Carroll.
I would think that implementing the Organizations plan was the first question in the interview.

I assume that Syracuse pitchers will still be under the strict pitch count that Jason Arnold was talking about in Mike's interview with him.

http://economics.about.com
I would imagine so too, Brent. Judging by Jason's comments, though, it's not as if they go around telling the pitchers "You can have 100 pitches, and that's all you get!" He wasn't too sure what the exact limit was, which shows that there's some flexibility.

Will Carroll told a pretty scary story about Arnsberg at September's BP Pizza Feed.

Can to elaborate?

Ken Williams was protrayed as a fool in Moneyball and people felt bad for him--saying he was misrepresented.

Now, I disagree. He wanted Cito as his choice, but he backed down--spineless! Williams deserves whatever he gets.

http://economics.about.com
Now, I disagree. He wanted Cito as his choice, but he backed down--spineless! Williams deserves whatever he gets.

That's just silly. If you and your boss are interested in hiring an employee beneath both of you, who do you think will have more say? Particularly if your boss can fire you if you're being too difficult. :)

Mike

If Williams can't stand up to his boss, then he should not be the GM--he is supposed to be the baseball man in the organization, so do not say it's silly.

Hmm...will the Marlins offer A J Burnett arbitration? Burnett one of Florida's outstanding stable of young throwers blew out his elbow early this season and had Tommy John surgery and will probably miss all the 2004 season.

I don't think an arbitrator will cut Burnett's 2.5 million dollar salary because of an injury. Will the cash strapped Marlins be willing to pay this sum for somebody who won't pitch? Furthermore Burnett accused Marlin management of witholding MRI results which showed a bone spur developing which may have contributed to the injury.(Arsberg was not told as well)

J.P. is no gambler, but Tommy John surgery has a 90-95% total recovery rate. In 2002 Riccardi used an 8th. round draft choice to obtain Chris Leonard who dropped considerably because of impending elbow surgery.

Just some idle speculation for a slow Tuesday.If he came on the market the Yanks would probably give him 15 million guaranteed anyway.

Coliver: It's silly.

Brian Cashman is a good GM, but do you really think it was him and not Steinbrenner that decided to acquire Raul Mondesi?

I think the portrayal of Kenny Williams in Moneyball has been blown way out of proportion. I'd heard the hype before I read it, but it seemed very tame when I read it myself. I think the media just grabbed hold of it as a good story... "Billy Beane thinks he's way smarter than other GMs!".

I don't think there's any way the Marlins non-tender Burnett and I doubt he'd want to leave a team that just won the World Series without him. He and the Marlins will come to some kind of agreement and if not they'll get something in trade for him. Pitchers with his ability and at his age just aren't cut loose.

Sorry for the delay -- there's now a separate thread on Arnsberg et al.

I would not have Ken Williams manage a 7-11!

I would not have Ken Williams manage a 7-11!

Clever alias, "coliver." We don't mind if you post as yourself, Mr. Cuban.

Oh c'mon--I am not that evil! : )

Guess I just feel bad for Cito. He deserved the job.