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Those lovable Fish are on top of the baseball world. They are as unlikely as the Angels last year, maybe more so: built on speed instead of walks and homers, managed by someone old enough to be my dad.



Mike Berardino of the Sun-Sentinel on the MVP:

When they make the video of this incredible Marlins postseason, they should call it, "Bend it Like Beckett."

Not just for his otherworldly curveball, which made the proud Yankees look more helpless than dangerous, but for the way he took our preconceived notions and bent them like a hot horseshoe to fit his will.




Clark Spencer of the Herald on Posada's play:

The ball arrived well before Gonzalez, but he twisted his body to elude Posada's swiping glove and grazed the back of the plate with his fingertips. Posada neglected to block the plate.

''When the catcher left the plate open, you've got to do something different,'' Gonzalez said. ``If he had blocked the plate, I would have been out.''

It was the first earned run the Marlins scored against Yankees starter Andy Pettitte in the Series. And it soon became a devastating one for George Steinbrenner's juggernaut.




Dan Le Batard of the Herald on the giddy champs:

And the Marlins got to celebrate at the center of New York's field, somehow quieting some of the loudest, most obnoxious fans in all of sports. There wasn't much being said at the center of the celebration, just a lot of shouting and laughing, an undulating release that was equal parts happiness and relief and pride. As the ashen-faced Yankees made their way to the losing clubhouse, quietly, heads down, single-file through a tight tunnel, the Marlins kept celebrating on the field for a full hour afterward.

Jack Curry of the Times (registration required) on why the Yankees lost:

The Yankees were 0 for 12 with runners on base last night and hit a brutal .169 with men on base for the series. There were chances for the Yankees sprinkled throughout every game, including having runners in scoring position five times off Beckett, but they never capitalized. If $180 million bought Steinbrenner anything this season, it should have bought him a couple of players who could have slapped two-out hits.

As the Yankees trudged around a quiet clubhouse like zombies, some of them believed they had lost to a team they should have stopped. The Marlins are deserving champions, a loose band of players who followed Manager Jack McKeon to the pinnacle of the sport and had fun every inch of the way. Jeter said the Marlins were "better than us in this series," stopping short of saying Florida was better than the Yankees. Saying that would have been too painful on a painful night.


I'm with Derek on that one. The Yankees made Brad Penny look great. Twice. They didn't hit, especially in the clutch. The better team this week won, but the Yankees aren't as bad as they looked. I wouldn't advise George to hire Whitey Herzog and rebuild his team on the Marlins model just yet.

William C. Rhoden of the Times (registration required) on sustaining a dynasty:

Maybe they should buy Pierre. Maybe they should buy Miguel Cabrera, the young Marlins infielder-outfielder. They should eventually bring Beckett to New York. While they're at it, why not buy Montreal right fielder Vladimir Guerrero?

Being the Yankees is like being king of the United States: a grand but incongruent distinction. The Yankees have sealed themselves in a lucrative but suffocating archive. The manager, the general manager and even the owner, for that matter, operate in the long shadow of history. They work in a museum filled with black-and-white photos of men wearing pinstripes from eras long past.


In the Post, there's a ghost-written column by Jim Leyritz that pulls no punches:

Heads will roll now.

I think you're going to see a pretty good housecleaning...

...I expect wholesale changes on Joe's coaching staff. Don Zimmer's at that age now where he's ready to say, "I don't need this pressure day in and day out." Mel Stottlemyre's going to be leaving because of his health issues. Rick Down's job has been rumored to be in jeopardy all year, and the way the Yankees hit in the Series won't help his cause. Lee Mazzilli and Willie Randolph are looking to manage somewhere. To get a younger coaching staff to motivate these guys may be a good idea.


I think Joe may get kicked upstairs to a front office position. Brian Cashman's job is in more jeopardy, because George needs to assign blame somewhere, and this roster was pretty weak for the money. Weaver and Hammond showed why they never pitch, White and Heredia are no better, and Enrique Wilson can do everything you want in a utility man except hit and field.

Cashman is very smart, and (hello, Mariners?) could build a winner on a lower budget with less interference from the owner. He didn't sign David Wells, who broke down in his critical Game 4 start. Because of the unique way the New York front office functions, we may never know whose idea it was to break the bank for Giambi or trade Ted Lilly for Jeff Weaver. Making that deal worse, they included a couple of prospects who would be prizes in their depleted farm system now, Jason Arnold and John-Ford Griffin.

Jays fans are naturally hoping for a Yankees collapse. Don't count on it. They will sign a Sosa or Guerrero, a big-name starter or two, and they might make a huge trade involving Soriano, who will not be in favour with the Boss about now but has enormous value if you don't mind adding payroll. They will completely renovate the bullpen by throwing money at it. There's a good chance they will be better.

The Red Sox aren't going anywhere, either. In another thread, Pistol suggested it might be tougher for Toronto to make the playoffs then to win the World Series. That's absolutely right. Had the 2003 Jays been in the AL Central, there's a good chance they would have won. For one thing, they wouldn't have traded Stewart in a pennant race. Then, with Doc in the Beckett role and Wells and Delgado hitting, anything is possible. It's harder to survive 162 games than to win eleven, and it's a damn shame to have to do it in the AL East, which I concede is no longer "baseball's best division." The Braves' regular season and the Marlins' title speak for themselves; the Phillies and Expos were almost as good as Florida.

There's lots of other reactions out there, but I'm running out of time to link to them. Please share the ones you find interesting.

No game today. Bummer.




World Champion Marlins | 24 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Ryan F. - Sunday, October 26 2003 @ 03:00 PM EST (#87012) #
I would like to congratulate the people that deserved this honour:

Dave Van Horn
Jack McKeon
Ivan Rodriguez
Possibly Jeff Conine.

That is all.
Pistol - Sunday, October 26 2003 @ 05:24 PM EST (#87013) #
In another thread, Pistol suggested it might be tougher for Toronto to make the playoffs then to win the World Series. That's absolutely right. Had the 2003 Jays been in the AL Central, there's a good chance they would have won. For one thing, they wouldn't have traded Stewart in a pennant race. Then, with Doc in the Beckett role and Wells and Delgado hitting, anything is possible.

Really I was talking about the future - 05 definately, but possibly next year as well. The pitching staff of this year's version of the Jays was just way too weak to do anything.

But with Halladay, a slightly above average FA starter, a breakout starter among Bush, McGowan, and Arnold, and a couple good bullpen acquisitions and this team could do some damage in the playoffs - especially since Halladay has shown he can pitch great on short rest. And I don't think it's that much of a stretch for that to happen next year.

But with the Sox and Yankees in the AL East you'll need a lot more pitching depth than what you would need in the playoffs which will be the real challenge for the team.

The Yanks have enough payroll leaving the team this year, and an enraged George willing to spend anything, so they'll be able to solve enough of their problems with money.

The Sox on the other hand are probably more catchable for the Jays. Their pitching can be shaky and Martinez is fragile. Plus a lot of batters are coming off career years.

Boston had 95 wins, and Seattle had 93 wins this year. If both slip a bit maybe the WC can be won with 92 wins, which the Jays have maybe a 25% chance at getting.
_Tassle - Sunday, October 26 2003 @ 05:37 PM EST (#87014) #
You said a lot of Red Sox batters are coming off career years, and while that's true you have to say the same for the Jays. Delgado will have a 900+ OPS guaranteed, but I don't see much chance he will have the same sucess he had this year and in 2000. He's just too inconsistent. Vernon Wells hit .300-30-100 with an above average OPS, and I'm not saying he'll regress or that he isn't an awesome hitter, just that it's extremely rare for guys to repeat numbers like that year after year. I'm not saying he can't, I'm just saying this might be as good as it gets. Reed Johnson was great in his leadoff role, and I imagine he'll start the season there next year, but would you really place bets that he's going to be a career .280+ hitter?
_Gwyn - Sunday, October 26 2003 @ 08:19 PM EST (#87015) #
Jays fans are naturally hoping for a Yankees collapse. Don't count on it.

Doug Pappas has an interesting look at the Yankees salary issues on his blog. Their commitments to just 8 players amount to over $70million a year over the next 3 years. He concludes - 'This could get very, very ugly.'
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, October 26 2003 @ 08:52 PM EST (#87016) #
http://economics.about.com
Doug Pappas has an interesting look at the Yankees salary issues on his blog. Their commitments to just 8 players amount to over $70million a year over the next 3 years. He concludes - 'This could get very, very ugly.'

Also keep in mind that for 2004, the Yankees have to pay an additional 30% in luxury tax payments for any amount they spend over $120.5 million. So any free agent that they sign for $10 million in 2004 will actually cost them $13m next year. In 2005, they'll have to pay *40* percent for any amount over 128.

Either the Yankees are going to have to cut back on spending, or they'll end up paying MLB a *lot* of money.

Mike
_Young - Sunday, October 26 2003 @ 08:59 PM EST (#87017) #
But again with the yankees, because they have that much more money than normal teams, they will be able to overcome a few mistakes.
Whereas with the Jays, one bad free agent signing can doom the team for the duration of the FA contract. Raul Mondesi anyone?
Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, October 26 2003 @ 09:16 PM EST (#87018) #
http://economics.about.com
But again with the yankees, because they have that much more money than normal teams, they will be able to overcome a few mistakes.

They don't have more money than the Blue Jays. They spend more money. There's a big difference.

Mike
_Brent - Sunday, October 26 2003 @ 09:53 PM EST (#87019) #
Just a quick (and pointless) hijack:

Is anyone else reminded of James Whitmore (aka Brooks Hatlen from Shawshank Redemption) every time they see Jack McKeon?
Craig B - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 08:34 AM EST (#87020) #
Well, I will save my thoughts on this - one of the great upsets in baseball's history, by a team which hopefully will be known to posterity as the "Miracle Marlins" - for another time.

For now, I will just say that it was throughly enjoyable, and I think even the least charitable among us can add a dozen or more names to that list that Ryan put at the top of this thread... esepcially Dontrelle Willis, who has a terrific backstory. In fact, one of the first names I'd add to that list is "Dontrelle Willis's Mom". But there are many others (Miguel Cabrera, anyone? Luis Castillo? Does anyone really have anything against Josh Beckett or Ugueth Urbina?)

I was really happy to see Bill Robinson get a ring, but also Pierre Arsenault, who suffered for so many years in Montreal. At least *one* guy (two, I guess, counting Dave Van Horne) who was cruelly robbed in 1994 got his ring.
Pistol - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 08:42 AM EST (#87021) #
Whereas with the Jays, one bad free agent signing can doom the team for the duration of the FA contract

That's a bit of an overstatement. The Jays were hardly doomed with Mondesi. There was a lot of other fat that needed to be trimmed.

Look at Oakland. They spend $10 million on Dye and he's done nothing since fouling the ball off his leg. They still make the playoffs each year.

When your at the lower end of payroll mistakes are magnified, but 1 is hardly crippling.

You said a lot of Red Sox batters are coming off career years, and while that's true you have to say the same for the Jays

Hey, who said I was unbiased!

You figure the Jays should go down a bit at C and 1B, but 3B should improve, and perhaps SS. There's youth in CF, 2B and DH so there shouldn't be a decline there. Cat should be consistent at 1 OF and the other CO is a mystery. Overall I would expect it the Jays offense to be neutral.
_jason - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 03:08 PM EST (#87022) #
The biggest problem the Yankies face is their depleated minor league system. While always picking down in the draft, while surrendering pick for the sake of free agent, when trading away any prospect of any value for in season tinkering, the have to have one of the weakest farms in baseball. The reason they are where they are is a core 4-5 players developed and drafted by the team. If there is no one of value on the farm, those trades will dry up and the Yankies go the way of the dodo.
Pistol - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 03:52 PM EST (#87023) #
If there is no one of value on the farm, those trades will dry up and the Yankies go the way of the dodo.

Except for 1 thing - the Yanks will pick up (or eat) bad contracts in place of trading prospects. That can be as valuable as prospects.
robertdudek - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 08:09 PM EST (#87024) #
"They don't have more money than the Blue Jays. They spend more money. There's a big difference."

They generate more revenue, therefore they can spend more.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 08:23 PM EST (#87025) #
http://economics.about.com
They generate more revenue, therefore they can spend more.

If I made $100 today and Bill Gates made nothing, therefore I can spend more than Bill Gates?

There's a difference between stocks and flows. The parent companies of both the Blue Jays and the Yankees *could* spend $500 million on player salaries, if they wanted to.
robertdudek - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 10:00 PM EST (#87026) #
Mike,

I'm sure you realize that people own baseball teams to make money off them. It doesn't make business sense to spend more money on the team than is justified by the amount of revenue they create for you.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 10:06 PM EST (#87027) #
http://economics.about.com
I'm sure you realize that people own baseball teams to make money off them. It doesn't make business sense to spend more money on the team than is justified by the amount of revenue they create for you.

Question: Do you think the Yankees are spending an amount that would maximize their profit?

Mike
Craig B - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 10:21 PM EST (#87028) #
Mike, I think the Yankees believe they do.

The marginal utility of those salaries does not seem like a sensible expense to 29 teams. The Yankees are different... their success depends on success, and success for the Yankees is measured only in championships. It's not enough just to get there for New York. In order to remain the dominant marketing force in sport, the Yanks must win *all the time*.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 10:32 PM EST (#87029) #
http://economics.about.com
I was always under the impression than Steinbrenner didn't care if he made money, and was willing to lose millions in order to be a "winner". Of course, that could just be spin. That goes for a few other owners, like Angelos.

Personally I don't see how the Yankees are acting at all in a profit maximizing manner. Doesn't mean they're not rational.. it just means that they have different goals than a typical business (or the over-simplified world of economic models).

Mike
Craig B - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 10:49 PM EST (#87030) #
Personally I don't see how the Yankees are acting at all in a profit maximizing manner.

The Yankees don't mint money just because they're the Yankees. You may not remember the late-1980s that well, but the Yankees in those days were very much the second-choice team in New York, and were not at all the hot commodity they have been since. The shine was definitely off the "Yankee mystique".

In order to have that certain special something, they have to win, and win big. Only by spending every last dollar they can get their hands on in order to ensure that they win, can the Yankees lay claim to being champions, and only by being perennial champs can they continue to impersonate U.S. Steel. Especially with regard to TV rights... no sane human can watch two ballgames at the same time, 162 days a year. That means that the Yankees need to stay ahead of the Mets, or they lose local eyeballs... and hence dollars.

In fact, if you look at their attendance figures you see something that strikes you as somewhat alarming if you're George Steinbrenner. When the Yankees are not winning, attendance is not good. And if attendance is not good... yikes.

(The other thing is that the Yankees were truly groin-punched by the strike... something Big George is going to remember forever).

So you gotta win, all the time.
Pepper Moffatt - Monday, October 27 2003 @ 10:56 PM EST (#87031) #
http://economics.about.com
So you gotta win, all the time.

That's a harsh business model. Remind me not to buy stock in the Yankees, if I'm ever offered any.

I still think they'd make more profit at $120 than $180, but I see your point. Of course, without more detailed info, it's really hard to tell.

Mike
robertdudek - Tuesday, October 28 2003 @ 10:43 PM EST (#87032) #
"Question: Do you think the Yankees are spending an amount that would maximize their profit?"

Most definitely not. I think with a more rational roster management approach, the Yankees could field a team of equal talent and star power for about 120 million total payroll (perhaps less). The reason they don't, I think, is (a) in tackling uncertainty, George's first instinct is to sign a lot of guys to big contracts and (b) Cashman and the boys are not all that good when it comes to properly valuing talent.

They are not maximizing profit, but they are making enormous profits, probably a greater real profit than any other MLB team despite their exhorbitant spending.
robertdudek - Tuesday, October 28 2003 @ 10:52 PM EST (#87033) #
The lack of lustre of the late '80s Yankees was partly as a result of the excellence of the Mets. When the Mets went downhill and the Yankees built a champion, the pendulum swung the other way. The Mets are now hampered with a bad cable contract that they foolishly signed before the local TV revenue explosion. When that contract finally ends , the Mets will have a shot at making up some of that revenue gap on the Yankees.

It was in the late '80s that the Yankees signed an enormous local TV contract with MSG. That is what put their revenue far ahead of everybody else, arguably for the first time in their history. Once they rebuilt the team with the farm system, the Yankees were in a better position than any other team in baseball history relative to their competitors to use their financial edge.
_lurker - Wednesday, October 29 2003 @ 08:31 PM EST (#87034) #
I've got to condemn Cashman a little bit for the team they put together. I've never understood why a team spending $120/150/180 million on its roster EVER has Karim Garcia or David Delucci in RF, or EVER has Enrique Wilson with a bat in his hands.

How do you get to that point? For all the money they throw at problems, they sure seem to end up with a lot of problems. How hard is it to find a real RF? They could have thrown money at a lot of guys that are real players rather than settle on the guys they did. How did they end up with that bullpen?
robertdudek - Wednesday, October 29 2003 @ 10:31 PM EST (#87035) #
How did they end up with that bullpen?

They expected Osuna to do a good job and Karsay got injured. Perhaps they were fooled by Hammond coming off a good year, but really, his 2003 was okay. They acquired Benitez and flipped him for Nelson, who is still a fairly good pitcher (though nowhere near his prime).
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