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Yes, folks, this is the last of the 2003 minor league reports, and we ain't exactly going out on a high note. Out of Syracuse's 141 games, 55 were started by waiver claims, minor league free agents, and the like (Josh Towers, Doug Linton, Evan Thomas, etc.), 41 by disappointing prospects (Jason Arnold and Mike Smith), 21 by prospects who didn't have a great deal of room to disappoint (Vinnie Chulk), and 7 by guys on rehab assignments (mainly Pete Walker). Corey Thurman started 16 games, and Dave Gassner started one. There wasn't a good relief prospect on the entire staff. Like the batsmen, however, most of these guys are about to get washed away by a flood of JP's pitching prospects (and Gord Ash's). David Bush, Dustin McGowan, and Adam Peterson may start next season with the SkyChiefs, and Jamie Vermilyea could be back in New York State sooner than we think. Cam Reimers, Chris Baker, and Dave Gassner aren't top-notch prospects, but one or two of them should be able to chip in some decent innings.


A note on statistics

Sets of four numbers represent $H/$BB/$K/$HR, defined for the purposes of this report as:


Statistic How to read it in English How it is calculated
--------- ---------------------------------- --------------------
$H "batting average on balls in play" (H-HR)/(AB-K-HR)
$BB "walk rate" BB/TBF
$K "strikeout rate" K/TBF
$HR "home run rate" HR/TBF


Intentional walks and hit by pitches are often removed from the denominators of these ratios, but I have not bothered with that correction here. In most cases the effect is quite small.

I have arbitrarily included rate stats only for pitchers who threw at least 20 innings for a given team.

Ages are of July 1 and are given in the form years.months.

The 2003 International League

IL pitchers allowed 4.57 runs (4.02 of which were earned) per nine innings in 2003. Out of every thousand batters they faced, 179 struck out, 77 walked, and 20 homered; out of every thousand batters who put the ball in play, 340 hit safely. The league K/BB ratio was 2.32.

The 2003 Syracuse Skychiefs

Without accounting for park factors, Syracuse pitchers were the worst in the International League this summer, allowing 5.03 runs (4.46 earned) per nine innings. The SkyChiefs didn't place last in the league in any of hits allowed, walks allowed, home runs allowed, or strikeouts, but they were below average in each category. For each thousand batters they faced, they struck out 168 while walking 83 and allowing 21 home runs; their batting average allowed on balls in play was .317. The low batting average allowed on batted balls may be attributed to park effects, to sheer luck, or to the soft hands of Simon Pond.

The only Syracuse pitcher who threw at least twenty innings and beat league norms in each of walks, strikeouts, and home runs allowed was, surprisingly enough, John Wasdin. Josh Towers, Doug Linton, Jason Kershner, Corey Thurman, and Evan Thomas allowed fewer walks than league average; Scott Cassidy, Dan Reichert, Tim Young, and Corey Thurman struck out more men than league average; Brian Bowles, Jason Kershner, Dan Reichert, Scott Cassidy, Tim Young, and Josh Towers allowed fewer home runs than league average. Note the absence of the names "Jason Arnold," "Mike Smith," and "Vinnie Chulk" from all three of those lists.

I have included player comments for pitchers who threw a significant number of innings for Syracuse but not for Toronto. Thus, Corey Thurman is here, but Josh Towers, Jason Kershner, and Jeff Tam are not. I've also included comments on pitchers like Juan Pena, Kevin Frederick, and Bob File, who didn't pitch many innings but have attracted some interest, either on this board or elsewhere.

Arnold, Jason age 24.2, throws R, 6'3", 210 lbs
AA New Haven: 3-1, 0.75 ERA, 6 G, 6 GS, 35.1 IP, 18 H, 11 BB, 33 K, 2 HR, .193/.080/.241/.015
AAA Syracuse: 4-8, 4.33 ERA, 21 G, 20 GS, 120.2 IP, 121 H, 46 BB, 82 K, 16 HR, .288/.088/.157/.031

Next time a Toronto pitching prospect begins a season with six starts like Arnold's (or Vince Perkins'), we'll all be a bit more sanguine. While Arnold certainly pitched very well before getting the call to Syracuse, he was also the beneficiary of a good deal of luck: no one maintains anything close to a .193 $H over the long term. Arnold's performance in Syracuse was, plain and simple, a disappointment. He fell below league norms in walk rate, strikeout rate, home run rate, and earned run average. His batting average allowed on balls in play was .051 below league average and .028 below team average, so his hits allowed and ERA probably look a little better than they should. His performance was noticeably worse in his last eleven starts (62.2 IP, 60 H, 10 HR, 25 BB, 38 K) than in his first ten (58 IP, 61 H, 6 HR, 21 BB, 44 K).

Let's play Rob Neyer's favorite game. I'm going to give you the season-by-season minor league stats of two pitchers.

Career Minor League Stats, Jason Arnold

Age Level IP H BB K HR
---- ------------ ----- --- -- -- --
22.2 Short-Season 66 35 15 74 2
23.2 High-A 80 64 22 83 2
AA 75.1 59 29 71 3
24.2 AA 35.1 18 11 33 2
AAA 120.2 121 46 82 16

Career Minor League Stats, Pitcher B

Age Level IP H BB K HR
---- ------------ ----- --- -- -- --
22.9 Short-Season 93 80 26 77 7
23.9 Low-A 94.1 78 21 85 2
AA 51 41 17 55 1
24.9 AAA 121.2 106 43 76 10


Now, these pitchers aren't quite twins. Arnold is seven months younger than pitcher B at every level. Arnold's short-season numbers are somewhat better, although pitcher B might have a slight edge at the higher levels. Still, if you can find a better match, I'll be quite impressed.

Pitcher B is Mike Smith.

Am I trying to suggest that we should give up on Jason Arnold? No. But I do think that our best estimates of his probabilities of reaching various levels of major-league performance should be adjusted downwards. He still has an excellent chance of pitching in the major leagues for at least a season or two, a good chance of being a productive major league starter for several years, and a modest but not insignificant chance of being a very good starting pitcher with a long career. Nevertheless, an impartial assessment would have given him a better chance of doing any of these things back in May than it does now.

If you want to call this analysis a cop-out, feel free to do so. I don't have access to any privileged information, so all I can really do is deal in probabilities. Robert Dudek has already pointed out that 2004 will be a huge year for Arnold. If he pitches like Mike Smith v.2003, then his chances of making it as a starter drop to just about nil. If he strikes out a man an inning with a 4:1 K:BB ratio in his first ten starts, then he'll probably be in the Toronto rotation by July. And if you can predict with a high degree of accuracy which of these paths he'll follow, then you're wasting your time on this board; go to Vegas and make some money.

Bowles, Brian age 26.10, throws R, 6'5", 220 lbs
AAA Syracuse: 2-3, 14 SV, 2.66 ERA, 41 G, 0 GS, 47.1 IP, 47 H, 21 BB, 32 K, 1 HR, .307/.100/.152/.005
Toronto: 0-0, 0 SV, 2.57 ERA, 5 G, 0 GS, 7 IP, 8 H, 2 BB, 2 K, 1 HR

I've been Bowles's Biggest Booster on this board all year, but let's call a spade a spade: the man simply didn't pitch well this year. From 1999 through 2002, he was a mildly interesting minor-league reliever who struck a fair number of batters out and kept the ball in the park but gave up too many walks. He's still stingy on home runs, and he's still giving out the free passes, um, freely, but his strikeout rate fell below the IL average this year. If Bowles wants to become major-league bullpen fodder, he'll have to substantially improve either his strikeout rate, his walk rate, or both.

Cassidy, Scott age 27.9, throws R, 6'2", 175 lbs
AAA Syracuse: 3-4, 4 SV, 3.24 ERA, 57 G, 0 GS, 80.2 IP, 75 H, 46 BB, 75 K, 3 HR, .329/.130/.212/.008

Cassidy, like Mike Smith, is a guy whose season-by-season stats are worth looking over if you fancy yourself an amateur minor-league analyst:


Season Level Age IP H BB K HR
------ ------ ---- ----- --- -- --- --
1998 Rookie 22.9 81.1 71 14 82 4
1999 Low-A 23.9 170.2 151 30 178 13
2000 High-A 24.9 88 53 34 89 4
2000 AA 24.9 42.2 48 15 39 7
2001 AA 25.9 96.2 78 27 81 10
2001 AAA 25.9 63 60 26 48 6


Fellows, I can guarantee you that if we had Scott Cassidy v.1998, v.1999, or v.2000 in our minor league system right now, we'd be excited about him. I do not mean to suggest that we shouldn't take minor league stats seriously, but rather that we should temper our enthusiasm about guys who have never hit AAA ball. There are some Mike Smiths and Scott Cassidys (Cassidies?) lurking in the current A-ball crop, too.

Cassidy had a very Brian Bowles-like season in 2003. Come to think of it, Cassidy's 2002 performancee in Toronto and 2003 performance in Syracuse make an excellent counter-argument to my monthly call-up-Brian-Bowles diatribes. This just in from the Department of Pointing Out the Obvious: just like Bowles, Cassidy won't make it back into a major league pen unless he can improve his strikeout rate and/or walk rate.

Chulk, Vinnie age 24.6, throws R, 6'2", 185 lbs
AAA Syracuse: 8-10, 4.22 ERA, 23 G, 21 GS, 119.1 IP, 118 H, 46 BB, 90 K, 14 HR, .291/.088/.172/.027

Hands up everyone who thought that Vinnie Chulk would be the ace of the 2003 Syracuse staff. Nobody? After Towers got the call from across Lake Ontario, Chulk was the most dependable starter around. He tied Mike Smith for the team lead in wins and edged out Corey Thurman in ERA. Chulk is essentially the same age as Jason Arnold, and he was ever-so-slightly better than Arnold in Syracuse this year. As a soft-tossing righty, however, he'll have done well if he lands a major-league middle relief job for a few years. Chulk's strikeouts rose ever-so-slightly from 2002, but his walks slipped a touch and his home runs rose a fair bit.


Season Level Age IP H BB K HR
------ ----- ---- ----- --- -- --- --
2002 AA 23.6 152 133 53 108 12
2003 AAA 24.5 119.1 118 46 90 14


All in all, anyone who thinks that 2003 was a disappointing summer for Chulk must have had unreasonable expectations to begin with.

Colangelo, Mike age 26.9, throws R, 6'1", 185 lbs
AAA Syracuse: 0-0, 0.00 ERA, 1 G, 1 IP, 2 H, 1 K, 1 HBP

Our own Brooks Kieschnick!

File, Bob age 26.5, throws R, 6'4", 210 lbs
A Dunedin: 0-0, 3.00 ERA, 3 G, 2 GS, 3 IP, 3 H, 0 BB, 0 K, 1 HR
AAA Syracuse: 0-0, 4.22 ERA, 11 G, 0 GS, 10.2 IP, 10 H, 2 BB, 7 K, 0 HR

The jury is still out on File's rehab. Bear in mind that his 2001 peripherals with the Blue Jays weren't all that impressive and he fell off a lot in the second half. I'd be as happy as the next guy to see File make it back to The Show, but I'm not holding my breath.

Frederick, Kevin age 26.8, throws L, 6'1", 210 lbs
AA New Haven: 2-2, 7 SV, 3.38 ERA, 25 G, 0 GS, 29.1 IP, 32 H, 14 BB, 27 K, 3 HR, .330/.104/.200/.022
AAA Syracuse: 1-3, 2 SV, 8.06 ERA, 24 G, 0 GS, 25.2 IP, 40 H, 12 BB, 20 K, 5 HR, .402/.093/.155/.039

A converted first baseman from the Twins organization, Frederick has good heat and a hard slider. His high-water mark was 2001, when he struck out 109 versus 28 walks and 5 round-trippers in 82-plus innings for New Britain (AA). He didn't impress in the PCL in 2002, and the Jays picked him up during the offseason. Frederick didn't pitch particularly well for either New Haven or Syracuse; as a 26-year-old reliever who hasn't figured out AAA hitters yet, you have to figure he's nearing the end of the line.

Linton, Doug age 37.10, throws R, 6'1", 190 lbs
AAA Syracuse: 2-10, 5.28 ERA, 31 G, 13 GS, 109 IP, 133 H, 19 BB, 79 K, 13 HR, .347/.041/.169/.028
Toronto: 0-0, 3.00 ERA, 7 G, 0 GS, 9 IP, 7 H, 4 BB, 7 K, 2 HR

I hope this isn't the end for Linton, but his chance of sticking in the majors seems to have passed. Linton wasn't all that bad in a brief stint with Toronto in April (as compared with, oh, say, Jeff Tam), but he was said to have difficulty adjusting to pitching out of the pen and he was sent down in the middle of the month, never to return. In Syracuse, Linton wasn't quite as bad as his 2-10 record and 5.28 ERA would suggest, but he wasn't all that great either. Corey Thurman and Jason Kershner were the only Syracuse hurlers (minimum 40 IP) whose K/BB ratios approached Linton's excellent 4.16:1.

For a while this season after the Jays fell out of the race, I mused about the unlikely possibility of Linton being called up for one last start. (I'm still sentimental about 1992). Part of me thought it would be a nice gesture; the other part thought it would be an embarrassment on the scale of Jeff Frye being held at first base in a meaningless 2001 game in order to complete the cycle. I'm still not sure which instinct to trust, but if Linton had been called up to pitch, I would have gone out to cheer for him.

Pena, Juan age 26.0, throws R, 6'5", 215 lbs
AA Tennessee: 6-5, 0 SV, 3.49 ERA, 29 G, 14 GS, 95.1 IP, 101 H, 44 BB, 69 K, 7 HR, .328/.106/.166/.017
AA New Haven: 0-0, 5 SV, 2.45 ERA, 7 G, 0 GS, 7.1 IP, 5 H, 5 BB, 10 K, 1 HR
AAA Syracuse: 0-1, 3 SV, 7.56 ERA, 8 G, 0 GS, 8.1 IP, 7 H, 6 BB, 7 K, 2 HR

Pena was a good prospect for the Red Sox in the late 1990s. In 1999, he was called up at the end of the season; he made two excellent starts (one against the Blue Jays) and won both of them. He was injured in a freak spring training accident in 2000 and missed the entire season. After returning in 2001, he had two unimpressive seasons in the minors and made his way first to the Cardinals and then to the Blue Jays via a waiver claim in June. He only managed fifteen-plus innings for New Haven and Syracuse before going on the DL for good on July 21. Looking at his record since the 2000 injury, it's hard to see Pena making it back to the big leagues.

Reichert, Dan age 27.0, throws R, 6'3", 175 lbs
AAA Syracuse: 4-3, 3.57 ERA, 41 G, 58 IP, 55 H, 35 BB, 60 K, 2 HR, .344/.135/.232/.008
Toronto: 0-0, 6.06 ERA, 16.1 IP, 28 H, 8 BB, 13 K, 2 HR

Anyone who labors under the misconception that the Toronto Blue Jays are run by a zombie-like cult of statistical seamheads who enjoy spreadsheets more than baseball games need look no further than Reichert for refutation. Reichert has done absolutely nothing on a baseball diamond since 2000 to suggest that he might be a productive major-league pitcher. But if you've ever seen him pitch, you'll understand why Ricciardi and Law signed him. Reichert has Justin Miller's natural movement but throws about 5 mph faster. To tell you the truth, I have no idea how anyone ever gets a hit off the man. Still, statistics don't lie, and Reichert's career major league numbers are 391 IP, 441 H, 43 HR, 223 BB, 240 K. He was all right in Syracuse this summer; like Bowles and Cassidy, he keeps the ball in the park and strikes out a reasonable number of batters, but his walks are too high.

Smith, Mike age 25.9, throws R, 5'11", 195 lbs
AAA Syracuse: 8-9, 5.00 ERA, 26 G, 21 GS, 131.1 IP, 140 H, 58 BB, 89 K, 13 HR, .316/.099/.153/.022

Smith's 2002 season was a serious disappointment, and he pitched worse in 2003 than in 2002. Perhaps a move to the bullpen is in order. Smith was briefly called up to Toronto in 2003, but he didn't actually pitch in a game.

Thomas, Evan age 29.1, throws R, 5'10", 170 lbs
AAA Syracuse: 4-8, 5.15 ERA, 20 G, 18 GS, 94.1 IP, 108 H, 29 BB, 63 K, 11 HR, .321/.070/.153/.027

Like Linton, Thomas didn't pitch as badly as his win-loss record and ERA suggest. This was Thomas' fourth AAA season (the other three were spent in the Philadelphia organization), and he's essentially the same pitcher he was four years ago. He has good control and is only moderately tater-prone, but his stuff doesn't fool anyone.

Thurman, Corey age 24.8, throws R, 6'1", 215 lbs
AAA Syracuse: 6-4, 4.27 ERA, 17 G, 16 GS, 86.1 IP, 90 H, 26 BB, 72 K, 8 HR, .320/.070/.193/.021
Toronto: 1-1, 6.46 ERA, 6 G, 3 GS, 15.1 IP, 21 H, 9 BB, 11 K, 3 HR

Although Thurman imploded when given a chance to earn a starting job in T.O., he actually pitched rather well for Syracuse this year. Thurman is reputed to be too intense on the mound and to intermittently lose his focus. I'm not sure how much of that is truth and how much is exaggeration, but based on his minor league record Thurman should be able to hold a spot in the Toronto rotation. If he doesn't make it as a starter, he should be a useful reliever for a number of years. He holds a special place in our hearts as the first of JP's long line of Rule 5 claims. Aquilino Lopez has worked out better than Thurman so far, but Thurman may end up being more valuable in the long run.

Wasdin, John age 30.11, throws R, 6'2", 195 lbs
AAA Nashville: 8-4, 3.04 ERA, 18 G, 18 GS, 112.1 IP, 101 H, 24 BB, 116 K, 4 HR, .319/.052/.251/.009
AAA Syracuse: 2-1, 5.23 ERA, 10 G, 1 GS, 20.2 IP, 28 H, 1 BB, 21 K, 1 HR, .409/.011/.231/.011
Toronto: 0-1, 0-1, 23.40 ERA, 3 G, 2 GS, 5 IP, 16 H, 4 BB, 5 K, 2 HR

I imagine that 2003 will stick out in John Wasdin's memory as a year of especially high peaks and low valleys. In his first start of the season for Nashville, he threw a perfect game; 103 innings later, having seemingly tamed his tatterific tendencies (4 HR allowed), he was picked up by the Blue Jays for Rich Thompson. Wasdin lasted only one relief outing and two starts in Toronto; given a chance to claim his spot in a major league rotation full of holes, he couldn't capitalize. After being sent to Syracuse, Wasdin pitched quite well overall (21 K, 1 BB, 1 HR in 20-plus innings) but his ERA was ruined by a couple of bad outings. It's hard to imagine Wasdin getting another shot with the Jays; next to Doug Linton, he's probably the SkyChief for whom one most wishes things could have turned out differently.

Wiggins, Scott age 27.3, throws L, 6'3", 205 lbs
AA New Haven: 0-1, 0 SV, 4.00 ERA, 17 G, 0 GS, 18 IP, 19 H, 2 BB, 13 K, 1 HR
AAA Syracuse: 2-2, 1 SV, 6.62 ERA, 35 G, 0 GS, 35.1 IP, 47 H, 22 BB, 22 K, 4 HR, .355/.125/.125/.023

Although Scott Wiggins only pitched 2.2 innings for the Jays in 2002 and will likely never play at SkyDome again, he'll always be one of our favorite acquisitions, for he rid us of Raul Mondesi. Wiggins pitched quite poorly in 2003, but he may yet win the LOOGY lottery at some point down the road.

Young, Tim age 29.9, throws L, 5'9", 170 lbs
AAA Syracuse: 2-3, 1 SV, 6.75 ERA, 19 G, 0 GS, 26.2 IP, 23 H, 25 BB, 25 K, 2 HR, .292/.195/.195/.016
AAA Colorado Springs: 2-1, 0 SV, 2.49 ERA, 29 G, 0 GS, 25 IP, 21 H, 8 BB, 27 K, 3 HR, .290/.076/.257/.029

Young, like Thomas, signed a minor-league contract in the offseason, but was beaten out by Trever Miller in spring training. He proceeded to walk a batter per inning in Syracuse, and was released in June. After being signed by Colorado, Young turned things around, but I don't think we're going to look upon him as the one that got away.

Farm Report 2003: Syracuse (Pitchers) | 16 comments | Create New Account
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Coach - Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 07:37 PM EDT (#87756) #
Arnold's performance in Syracuse was, plain and simple, a disappointment.

Absolutely, but it doesn't mean his upside got any lower. I thought Jason was being counted on as part of the 2004 Jays rotation, but it's obvious he's on a different schedule now. When I watched him for a few innings on TV last year, he had excellent movement; unfortunately, many pitches danced right out of the strike zone and the Ottawa batters were taking. Most of the hits he gave up were on cookies when he was behind in the count. Arnold has plenty of work left to do at AAA on the mental part of his craft, and I wish he had smoother mechanics. There is always the possibility that he'll end up in the Toronto bullpen, where some scouts projected him all along.

The jury is still out on File's rehab.

Yes, and it may be deliberating for quite a while. The surgery File had -- removing a portion of his collarbone -- was potentially career-ending. My impression from hearing Carlos Tosca talk about his first couple of rehab outings was that the Jays were pleasantly surprised he pitched at all this year, and there was absolutely no thought of calling him up. Bob's still a wild card in the bullpen mix for next spring, but he will not be rushed, and it remains to be seen if he ever gets back to his 2001 form.

Thurman, Chulk, Smith, Bowles and Reichert, if they are all at camp, might be in a battle for one bullpen spot. I still think Corey has the most potential, but he really has been his own worst enemy on the mound, and he falls into the psychological trap of believing he has to throw everything "better" in the Show instead of trusting the stuff that was effective for him in AAA. If anything, his "out" pitch, the changeup, should be thrown slower against better hitters, and when you try to add 2-3 mph to an ordinary heater, you lose command. That may improve over time, or it may severely limit his career.

Nice job, John. None of these results needed sugar-coating, and I'd say you've been realistic. The good news is, Syracuse fans can look forward to a younger, more talented staff in '04 and for years to come.
_Mike B - Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#87757) #
I like the assessment of Thurman. As I recall, he was pitching very well (and certainly much better than the average Skychiefs' pitcher) before his mid-season call up and had one terrific start against Anaheim. His next start he gave up three bombs in less than one inning against Texas before being bailed out by -- of all people -- Tanyon Sturtze. After this discouraging experience, Thurman was useless in Toronto. In addition to the comments in this report regarding his makeup, I've also read on numerous occasions that Thurman loses his confidence quite easily after tough outings. This assertion was supported by the less-than-impressive fashion in which he finished the season upon his return to Syracuse (where batters hit his offerings freely causing a significant increase in his ERA and taking much of the shine off of his peripheral stats).

What should the Jays' brass make of Thurman's late season collapse? If I were them, I wouldn't think too much of it. Thurman is a pitcher with over a year of major league experience and he's proven that he can handle AAA (i.e. with his perfomance in the first two thirds of 2003 before he lost his confidence). What Thurman needs is not more AAA; rather, he should be in Toronto next year. In order to decrease the likelihood of Thurman losing confidence in the majors, he should be put in the bullpen and only be allowed to pitch in situations where the game is not on the line. By following this plan, Thurman can gain some confidence by putting up good numbers in low pressure situations. He should then be given some starts when his confidence is at a point where he does not doubt his ability to be a good starting pitcher even if he gets roughed up on occasion. Of course, this plan backfires if Thurman does not pitch well in the low pressure situations but I think it's worth a try. He's a pitcher with the kind of stuff that could make him a very solid starter but he's gotta put it together soon.
Gerry - Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 09:57 PM EDT (#87758) #
Arnold numbers were great in 2001, 2002 and in his first 6 starts in 2003. Then the party ended. Most pitchers have to face reality at some point in their development. For some it does not come until their first exposure to the major leagues. For Arnold it was AAA. Pure power pitchers can often get further before they hit the wall because of their "stuff". Arnold is not pure power, so the older hitters at AAA did not get fooled as often as their younger AA equivalents.

Arnold has to become more consistent and work on how to get older hitters out. His struggles at AAA do not eliminate his prospect status. He has been challenged and how he reacts in 2004 will define his future.

Vinny Chulk is similar. When his sinker was hitting the bottom of the strike zone he was an effective pitcher. When the sinkers became balls, the hitters sat on his straighter pitches and killed them. When he can consistently throw his sinker where he wants to, he will be a major league pitcher.

Pitchers take longer to get to the majors than hitters. Arnold and Chulk have more work to do at AAA.
Pistol - Sunday, October 19 2003 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#87759) #
Slightly off topic, but is there any chance that Aqualino will become a starter for the Jays (or should he)? I remember that he was both a starter and reliever the season before the Jays picked him up.
robertdudek - Monday, October 20 2003 @ 08:40 AM EDT (#87760) #
I believe that Thurman has been removed from the 40-man roster and so will be exposed to the Rule 5 draft (unless he is put back). There's every chance he'll be picked up by someone.
Pistol - Monday, October 20 2003 @ 09:17 AM EDT (#87761) #
But if teams wanted Thurman they could have picked him up off of waivers which would seem a better option than taking him in Rule 5 where he'd have to be in the majors all season, no?
_Nigel - Monday, October 20 2003 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#87762) #
Excellent report John. I think Thurman could have/ should have a role with a major league team next year as a long reliever (at least to start the season). I suspect that it may not be with the Jays because of his removal from the 40-man roster but you never know. I would rather have him in that role for the Jays than take another flyer on someone like Sturtze, who is a proven major league mediocrity (or worse).

The other thought is that pitchers like Cassidy, Smith and to some extent Arnold were all "old" for their level when they were in AA and below. I think a number of this year's Auburn starters fit that description as well. As John mentions, I think you need to be realistic about their stats until they get to higher levels (I'm not saying that some may not turn into fine prospects). As has been said, '04 will tell us a great deal about Arnold, just like '03 told us a great deal about Smith.
_Ryan01 - Monday, October 20 2003 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#87763) #
I'm not totally sure, but I think Thurman may be a minor league free agent this offseason.
_Duane Grassbaug - Monday, October 20 2003 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#87764) #
I watched Arnold pitch against the Clippers this year, and the impression that I came away with was that when facing non former Michigan QBs Arnold he lacked an out pitch. Throughout the game he was ahead of batters, including many 0-2 counts, he just didn't finish guys off. Furthermore with 2 strikes it seemed like guys were really teeing off on him...I have no idea what that means or if was symbolic of his season.... I saw a pitcher who needs to finish guys off, I guess he needs a ounchout pitch, if he gets one, I think his future is quite bright, if not he'll just be another mediocre reliever at best.
_Jays1fan1 - Monday, October 20 2003 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#87765) #
I think most people are expecting way too much from Corey Thurman. I don't think he will ever be a decent major league pitcher. During his rookie year with Toronto he had one of the worst WHIP's on the team and showed a complete lack of control despite being used almost exclusively in low pressure situations. Again this year in Syracuse he failed to prove that he is a decent pitcher. He didn't have a great ERA, he average around 5 innings per start and gave up more hits than innings pitched. Also he only pitched in 17 games.

Since he has yet to have success at any level above double A, I am baffled that everyone is so high on him and continues to suggest he should have a spot in Toronto next season. In my mind until he has success in Syracuse he should not see the light of day in Toronto.

I hope I'm proven wrong but I think the most you will see from Thurman is a below average major league middle reliever.
_John Neary - Monday, October 20 2003 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#87766) #
Jays1fan1: Part of the reason for the Corey Thurman hype is that he's the only young pitcher who might reasonably be able to contribute before midsummer 2004. His 2003 AAA numbers aren't great, but they're pretty good; his peripherals (BB, K, HR) were the best on the team. His walk and strikeout rates were better than league average and his home run rate was almost exactly league average. Those numbers probably have more predictive value than hits per inning pitched. The 5 IP per game is a canard; Thurman averaged over six per start in 2001, and even if he really can only pitch five innings per game, I'll happily take them if they're halfway decent. You are correct that his peripheral numbers in 2001 were rather poor, but you're talking about a 23-year old who'd thrown a total of five AAA innings before being thrown into the fire. As for "he only pitched in 17 games," well, it's not his fault that Carlos Tosca felt compelled to shuttle him back and forth to Toronto and sit him on the bench for a week at a time.

It's disingenuous to say that Thurman "has yet to have success at any level above double A." If you focus on peripherals, as I suggest, then he was reasonably successful in 2003. If you focus on ERA (which you don't seem to favor, and I agree with you) then he was reasonably successful in 2002.

If this were an Oakland A's blog, no one would be hyping Corey Thurman, but the Jays have precisely one solid starter under contract for next season. I would not be at all surprised if Thurman outpitched Josh Towers, Mark Hendrickson, and/or Pete Walker next season, and that's all he will need to do to earn a spot in this rotation.
_Jays1fan1 - Monday, October 20 2003 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#87767) #
John: I'm just saying don't be too surprised if Corey Thurman is the next Scott Cassidy or Mike Smith. I try not to get excited about players that were never highly rated and had an average year in AAA.

I think it may be because every other pitcher in Syracuse had a poor year that everyone is focusing on people like Thurman.

Also, I don't think Tosca was responsible for shuttling Thurman back and forth from AAA.
_John Neary - Monday, October 20 2003 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#87768) #
Jays1fan1: I take your point regarding Thurman. I suppose what I should have said in the first place is that I don't think he has a great deal to gain from another year in AAA. I'd like to see him start the season with Toronto (barring a Rule 5 claim), either in the rotation or in long relief. If he gets bombed, which is not unlikely, then you cut bait; if not, then you've got a useful pitcher on your hands. I think that Arnold has more to gain from repeating AAA, and I don't think it matters much one way or another what the top brass does with everyone else.
_Jordan - Monday, October 20 2003 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#87769) #
John, once again, terrific job. With further regard to Thurman and Arnold: if they both end up in the Toronto bullpen, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. They probably can't be worse than what was trotted out there this past year, and for less money. And if Corey really is suffering from a crisis of confidence, well, sports psychologists are cheap and plentiful. I still like both of these guys' upside, though it's undeniable that they have to prove some things yet, to the Blue Jays and to themselves.
_Jays1fan1 - Tuesday, October 21 2003 @ 09:16 AM EDT (#87770) #
In regards to Thurman starting with Toronto next season, I think it's much too early to give him a spot. Lets see what the off season aquisitions are before handing him a spot in the pen. If he has a good spring and there is a spot available then fine, however I don't see that happening.

I think the Jays will add another 1 or 2 bullpen arms this offseason to go with Miller, Lopez, Walker, Politte (if he's not non-tendered) and Kershener. This doesn't leave a lot of room for other people. I also think that Thurman could use some more time in Syracuse. Give him some time to build up his strength as a starter. He only had 16 starts last season and averaged just over 5 innings per start, therefore I think he could benefit from some time in Syracuse. Also we won't have to find out if he's the next Mike Smith while on the major league roster.
_jason - Friday, October 24 2003 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#87771) #
I remember hearing on the FAN's "Baseball Show" of a Saturday (I'm going to miss that part of my week, back to Hockey blather) that Arnold was not 100% healthy. Bill Hayes was interviewing the play by play man from Syracuse, and he offered that as an excuse for Arnold's performance.

With regards to Thurman, another Blue Jay was thought to be messed up in the head, emotional and suffering from shattered self confidence. This year he may win the Cy Young award. Forget a sport psch., send Cory to see Roy.

Is it just me, even while typing Arnold my head pronounces it Ahnohld.
Cheers
jason
Farm Report 2003: Syracuse (Pitchers) | 16 comments | Create New Account
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