New York Yankees at Boston Red Sox, 4 PM ET (Game 3)
Pedro versus Roger.
Eloquent understatement, Robert.
Nice to see the Sox at full strength, though I wouldn't put it past Clemens to "intimidate" Johnny Damon, who may not be 100% yet. I'm absolutely stunned at Torre's lineup, which has Enrique Wilson leading off and playing third base, with Alfonso Soriano ninth. Wilson did go 7-for-8 off Pedro this year, improving to 10-for-20 lifetime, but it's still quite a gamble.
Pedro's never lost a postseason game, so I'm optimistic, but not overconfident. As much as I'd love to see Roger get creamed, I suspect he'll be very tough. At this unusual starting time, if the sun is shining at Fenway, it's going to be very tough for the hitters to pick up the ball.
Nice to see the Sox at full strength, though I wouldn't put it past Clemens to "intimidate" Johnny Damon, who may not be 100% yet. I'm absolutely stunned at Torre's lineup, which has Enrique Wilson leading off and playing third base, with Alfonso Soriano ninth. Wilson did go 7-for-8 off Pedro this year, improving to 10-for-20 lifetime, but it's still quite a gamble.
Pedro's never lost a postseason game, so I'm optimistic, but not overconfident. As much as I'd love to see Roger get creamed, I suspect he'll be very tough. At this unusual starting time, if the sun is shining at Fenway, it's going to be very tough for the hitters to pick up the ball.
Ah, my favourite pitcher vs. the pitcher I love to hate the most.
Can't wait for the first pitch. Joe Torre is going to have a lot of 'splaining to do.
Can't wait for the first pitch. Joe Torre is going to have a lot of 'splaining to do.
Pedro is getting the high strike, which he started Wilson and Giambi with; he tested the limit on the 1-1 to Williams. The sun isn't as bad as I thought for the hitters, as the entire infield is in shadow, but as Bret Boone explained, it's difficult to pick up the speed on the ball in this light, so Mr. Splitty might be difficult to lay off.
Great hands by Enrique (0-for-1) Wilson, who looked as bad as a third baseman can look on his first chance. Somehow, it was scored a hit; I guess a one-hopper right at you is considered a tough chance.
The "Ro-ger" chant that accompanied Walker's double off the Monster sounded like 100,000 fans at a European soccer stadium. Clemens threw a lot of splitters to Nomar, who didn't like the strike three call on a pitch that might have been low and inside. Manny Ramirez didn't try to do too much with a splitter, stroking a 2-run single up the middle for the all-important first blood.
The "Ro-ger" chant that accompanied Walker's double off the Monster sounded like 100,000 fans at a European soccer stadium. Clemens threw a lot of splitters to Nomar, who didn't like the strike three call on a pitch that might have been low and inside. Manny Ramirez didn't try to do too much with a splitter, stroking a 2-run single up the middle for the all-important first blood.
Once again, Little runs his team out of an inning, starting the speedy Ramirez with one out on a 3-2 pitch to slugger David Ortiz. Strike 'em out, throw 'em out is too long a name for that double play; I propose that henceforth it be known as a Grady.
Hmmmm...That that's the second *really* ugly strike 'em out-throw 'em out DP. Does Little have the guts to try that again? Granted it's not his fault, both Ortiz and (I forget who the batter was the other day) should have both been swinging at those very close strikes.
Adam, it was Mueller last time, and I was shocked when he didn't swing, but as Robert pointed out, it was still a dumb call. It looked like ball four low to Ortiz, who has a great eye, but you're right -- if he got the sign, he has to at least foul that pitch off.
Karim Garcia cashes Posada's leadoff double and it's 2-1.
Karim Garcia cashes Posada's leadoff double and it's 2-1.
Jeter blasts a hanging Martinez curve over the big wall to tie it up. Of course if Mike Schmidt -- I mean, Enrique (0-for-2) Wilson -- hadn't feebly struck out, the Yankees might be ahead. As I suspected when I saw the lineup, Torre's playing a man short.
"Give me a break, this is the big leagues, we're in the playoffs," whined Tim McCarver when Jeter muffed an easy chance, very similar to Wilson's brutal misplay, yet it was scored another infield hit for Damon. "Are their parents keeping score?"
Boone, who seems as fed up with the old motormouth as the rest of us, wryly commented that Tim was just trying to say those were errors back in his day. Good one, Bret, but they're still errors. This one, fortunately for Yankee fans, didn't come around to score; 2-2 after three.
Boone, who seems as fed up with the old motormouth as the rest of us, wryly commented that Tim was just trying to say those were errors back in his day. Good one, Bret, but they're still errors. This one, fortunately for Yankee fans, didn't come around to score; 2-2 after three.
A walk, a long single off the wall, and a sharply-hit ground-rule double -- the Yanks are getting to Pedro, who with nobody out and first base open, fired his first pitch at Garcia's head.
Soriano grounds into a 6-4-3 double play, but another run scores. Tempers are flaring all over the field, as Garcia slid extra hard and exchanged angry words with Walker when he was forced out. Torre's pleading his case with the umps, which is basically "why should my guy get a warning?"
Despite Enrique (0-for-3) Wilson being a black hole at the top of the order (a weak popup to second ended the inning) and at third, it's 4-2 and Pedro looks vulnerable.
Despite Enrique (0-for-3) Wilson being a black hole at the top of the order (a weak popup to second ended the inning) and at third, it's 4-2 and Pedro looks vulnerable.
Pedro Martinez just assaulted Don Zimmer. Worst thing I've ever seen on a ball field.
Coach, I agree with you. But what was Zimmer thinking?!?
Sorry Coach, I disagree. Zimmer looked like he came after Martinez.
Manny over-reacted to a pitch that was CLEARLY not intended for his head.
Manny over-reacted to a pitch that was CLEARLY not intended for his head.
I hate to agree with McCarver, but he's 100% right -- that pitch to Ramirez wasn't even close, but Manny marched out to confront Clemens.
The benches cleared, and Zimmer went looking for Martinez. Pedro is going to claim self-defence, but he didn't face much of a threat from a chubby 72-year-old who's had both knees replaced, and he certainly didn't have to grab him by the neck and throw him to the ground.
Both Zimmer and Martinez should have been ejected by now; the umps seem to have ignored the whole ugly incident. Pedro appears to have annoyed Zim with a gesture that seemed to be a threat to hit someone in the head (Garcia ducked, taking the last beanball off his shoulder).
The benches cleared, and Zimmer went looking for Martinez. Pedro is going to claim self-defence, but he didn't face much of a threat from a chubby 72-year-old who's had both knees replaced, and he certainly didn't have to grab him by the neck and throw him to the ground.
Both Zimmer and Martinez should have been ejected by now; the umps seem to have ignored the whole ugly incident. Pedro appears to have annoyed Zim with a gesture that seemed to be a threat to hit someone in the head (Garcia ducked, taking the last beanball off his shoulder).
I agree that Pedro and Zimmer should be tossed but Manny goes too. Most guys wouldn't have even ducked back on that pitch.
Dont want to start a debate here on this, but I think for those reading this 'assulted' is pretty strong for what happened.
Zimmer moved towards Pedro, took a swing and Pedro kinda threw him to the ground, although Zimmer's age made this look worse that it was.
and I'd like to add that Zimmer did throw the first punch... Its not like he can take the higher ground in the incident.
Im not condoning what happened. It was ugly, unnecessary, and not something you want to see on a baseball pitch, or anywhere.
But Im sure Zimmer won't be filing any charges after the game... more likely he'll be telling reporters he wished he'd got the shot in while he had the chance.
Zimmer moved towards Pedro, took a swing and Pedro kinda threw him to the ground, although Zimmer's age made this look worse that it was.
and I'd like to add that Zimmer did throw the first punch... Its not like he can take the higher ground in the incident.
Im not condoning what happened. It was ugly, unnecessary, and not something you want to see on a baseball pitch, or anywhere.
But Im sure Zimmer won't be filing any charges after the game... more likely he'll be telling reporters he wished he'd got the shot in while he had the chance.
I really liked Steve Palermo when he was wearing the mask, but now that he's an official MLB apologist and spin doctor, I can't wait to see how he screws this one up.
A,
It is Grady's fault. He was stupid enough to call for the hit and run with the runner and hitter both being eminently unsuited for it.
It is Grady's fault. He was stupid enough to call for the hit and run with the runner and hitter both being eminently unsuited for it.
Coach,
What was Zimmer doing coming out after Pedro and swinging a left hook? That has to constitute monumental stupidity, at any age.
Boy, they should rename this game "Grown men behaving stupidly".
What was Zimmer doing coming out after Pedro and swinging a left hook? That has to constitute monumental stupidity, at any age.
Boy, they should rename this game "Grown men behaving stupidly".
Jim, the way I saw it live, it looked like they were jawing and Pedro made the first move. I typed "assaulted" because it was the first word that came to mind, and that was a real-time post, not a carefully considered response. Replays do indicate that Zimmer had his arm raised.
Martinez, who started it all when he buzzed Garcia, made it worse when he made that apparent threat, and instead of walking away from the confrontation, chose to beat up an old man. Pedro is a brilliant talent, but that's appalling behaviour.
Robert, I think it's entirely possible that Zimmer wanted to get tossed, and take Pedro with him, which would have been a fair result of the whole sordid mess. But the six blind mice missed it somehow.
Martinez, who started it all when he buzzed Garcia, made it worse when he made that apparent threat, and instead of walking away from the confrontation, chose to beat up an old man. Pedro is a brilliant talent, but that's appalling behaviour.
Robert, I think it's entirely possible that Zimmer wanted to get tossed, and take Pedro with him, which would have been a fair result of the whole sordid mess. But the six blind mice missed it somehow.
"Give me a break, this is the big leagues, we're in the playoffs," whined Tim McCarver when Jeter muffed an easy chance, very similar to Wilson's brutal misplay, yet it was scored another infield hit for Damon. "Are their parents keeping score?"
He also asked, rhetorically - "Is this Legion ball?"
McCarver was exactly right. That was a ridiculous scoring decision and McCarver was right to go on a rant. Some people like Boone's commentary style, but he is far too diplomatic for my taste.
He also asked, rhetorically - "Is this Legion ball?"
McCarver was exactly right. That was a ridiculous scoring decision and McCarver was right to go on a rant. Some people like Boone's commentary style, but he is far too diplomatic for my taste.
I'm about three years older than Pedro, so a similar age bracket. If a 72 year old came at ME (older than my father!), I might throw him down. But not before I at least tried backing up a bit, trying to avoid an embarassing confrontation. Pedro took the macho 'You wanna piece of me?' apprpach, which was a bit much.
By the way, I don't doubt that Pedro hit Garcia intentionally. A big time pitcher, getting knocked around a little bit, probably wants to make the other team uncomfortable. I actually don't think it's that bad a thing--old time baseball. Mind you, I wouldn't have hit the weakest hitter in the lineup. :)
Are there any lip readers out there who figured out what Pedro said when he pointed at his head?
Oh, and despite all that's happened, I still despise the Yankees, and hope the Red Sox win. At least they could make Clemens work a bit more, so they can get to the bullpen before the 8th inning. If they don't, then with Mariano out there, the game's over.
By the way, I don't doubt that Pedro hit Garcia intentionally. A big time pitcher, getting knocked around a little bit, probably wants to make the other team uncomfortable. I actually don't think it's that bad a thing--old time baseball. Mind you, I wouldn't have hit the weakest hitter in the lineup. :)
Are there any lip readers out there who figured out what Pedro said when he pointed at his head?
Oh, and despite all that's happened, I still despise the Yankees, and hope the Red Sox win. At least they could make Clemens work a bit more, so they can get to the bullpen before the 8th inning. If they don't, then with Mariano out there, the game's over.
Robert, it's bad enough for a regular announcer or writer having to face major leaguers after being critical; Boone is sitting on the fence because he fears the wrath of his peers if he says anything too controversial.
I notice everyone in the booth is bending over backwards to avoid commenting on Aaron Boone's absence or Wilson's terrible day. Timmy would be all over that story under any other circumstances.
I notice everyone in the booth is bending over backwards to avoid commenting on Aaron Boone's absence or Wilson's terrible day. Timmy would be all over that story under any other circumstances.
Steve, I really want to agree with you...but the Red Sox are so boorish this year.
I'm torn.
I'm torn.
Manny Ramirez grounds into a double play to end a Boston threat. It will soon be Contreras and Rivera time.
This game may add to the drama of this incredible postseason, and it certainly has raised the intensity level for the rest of this series, but it's making me question my respect for these teams. It's really going to get ugly when (if?) Pedro pitches in the Bronx. I still believe they are the two best clubs, but I'm starting to think there's only one worth cheering for -- Go Cubbies!
This game may add to the drama of this incredible postseason, and it certainly has raised the intensity level for the rest of this series, but it's making me question my respect for these teams. It's really going to get ugly when (if?) Pedro pitches in the Bronx. I still believe they are the two best clubs, but I'm starting to think there's only one worth cheering for -- Go Cubbies!
Felix Heredia confirms that he's basically a LNOGY -- a lefty no-out guy -- in any important situation.
Heredia's leadoff walk comes around to score, but the Yankees don't mind because it was on a double-play grounder. So much for the big inning; it's 4-3 and Rivera will be on for the final six outs.
The Sox have Timlin ready, though Pedro's thrown only 98 pitches, and I can't believe he'd agree to come out.
The Sox have Timlin ready, though Pedro's thrown only 98 pitches, and I can't believe he'd agree to come out.
Timlin has been superb for the last month. The bottom is falling out of his sinker, and he's spotting his fastball wherever he wants. He just set down Jeter-Giambi-Williams to give his team a chance; that's 19 up, 19 down in the postseason.
As if this game didn't already turn sour in the fourth inning, some jerk jumped into the Yankees bullpen and started another incident. Karim Garcia hurt himself in the scuffle. Now they are saying the guy was a Fenway groundskeeper. Un-Ficking-believable.
It's over. If Boston doesn't win three out of the next four, you can call it the Curse of the Gerbil.
Mariano Rivera looks great. I wondered why Torre was using him for two innings in the first game of three in a row. However Rivera threw about 15 pitches in two innings making Torre look like a genius.
My opinion of Gerbil-gate is that Pedro added a little finish when he could just have fended him off. But what was Zimmer thinking? What would have happened if Pedro didn't see him coming and if Pedro was knocked down and injured?
Although Pedro was guilty of excess I think Zimmer has to get a suspension to send a message about coaches going after players.
My opinion of Gerbil-gate is that Pedro added a little finish when he could just have fended him off. But what was Zimmer thinking? What would have happened if Pedro didn't see him coming and if Pedro was knocked down and injured?
Although Pedro was guilty of excess I think Zimmer has to get a suspension to send a message about coaches going after players.
The Red Sox are done. This was a game they HAD to have. The next two games they're putting John Burkett (!!) in an absolute must win, against Wells who has historically pitched well in the post-season. Then they will ask Wakefield to beat Mussina for the second time in less than a week. I just can't see it happening.
Looks like another year where I'll watch how the LCS plays out (Cubs are already up 4-0!), but I'll skip the WS. I have absolutely zero interest in watching the Yankees buy themselves another chamionship. I've already seen several years of that, and if not for Luis Gonzalez' 9th inning blooper, might have given up on baseball by now.
Oh well. I guess there's always hockey (1-0 Canadiens...sigh)
Looks like another year where I'll watch how the LCS plays out (Cubs are already up 4-0!), but I'll skip the WS. I have absolutely zero interest in watching the Yankees buy themselves another chamionship. I've already seen several years of that, and if not for Luis Gonzalez' 9th inning blooper, might have given up on baseball by now.
Oh well. I guess there's always hockey (1-0 Canadiens...sigh)
Zimmer- take a minute and screw your bobble-head into place. You couldn't ever come close to Pedro.
Steve: It looked very much to me (after seeing it about a dozen times) that the last thing Pedro said, while he was pointing to his temple, was "I'll hit you in the head".
One of the strange things about this game is Pedro’s pitch selection in the middle innings. Pedro started strongly using all his pitches. Then, he starts throwing almost all breaking balls. The commentators speculate that Pedro has an injury. Pedro gives up the lead on his breaking balls.
Then Pedro incites a brawl. After the brawl Pedro returns to pitching strongly. What happened in the middle innings when Pedro lost the game?
Then Pedro incites a brawl. After the brawl Pedro returns to pitching strongly. What happened in the middle innings when Pedro lost the game?
Two cents... Zimmer figured he could assault Pedro and get away with it. He didn't. Both facts are unfortunate. Zim undoubtedly figured he can't be touched, and he's right; no way MLB has the cojones to suspend him for the rest of the series as would be just.
Unfortunately, Don Zimmer is apparently headed to the hospital and I just hope he's OK.
The groundskeeper vs. Nelson incident was bizarre. Aaron Gleeman's "take him under the stands and kill him" would be the line of the night, but Gary Geiger Counter topped it with "If you're going to jump into a bullpen, jump into Texas's... they'd probably sign you."
Unfortunately, Don Zimmer is apparently headed to the hospital and I just hope he's OK.
The groundskeeper vs. Nelson incident was bizarre. Aaron Gleeman's "take him under the stands and kill him" would be the line of the night, but Gary Geiger Counter topped it with "If you're going to jump into a bullpen, jump into Texas's... they'd probably sign you."
Important information ...
The "fan" was actually a member of the grounds-crew who was already in the Yankees pen. It turned out he was a passionate Red Sox fan and began a fist-pumping celebration after the Sox turned a DP.
At that point, there was an altercation. Jeff Nelson, and later Karim Garcia (who jumped over the outfield fence), put their cleats to him. The implication is that the Yankees instigated the violence, though the details are sufficiently hazy at this point to determine this.
The police are now looking into possible charges against the TWO YANKEES.
Does this change anyone's perception of events?
The "fan" was actually a member of the grounds-crew who was already in the Yankees pen. It turned out he was a passionate Red Sox fan and began a fist-pumping celebration after the Sox turned a DP.
At that point, there was an altercation. Jeff Nelson, and later Karim Garcia (who jumped over the outfield fence), put their cleats to him. The implication is that the Yankees instigated the violence, though the details are sufficiently hazy at this point to determine this.
The police are now looking into possible charges against the TWO YANKEES.
Does this change anyone's perception of events?
This is an except from the ESPN story on it, with quotes from Jeff Nelson:
With tempers already high following a bench-clearing melee earlier in the game, Nelson took exception to Paul Williams, who was waving a white flag in the bullpen in the ninth inning. The reliever told Williams he didn't like it, and the two started to fight.
"He was standing in our bullpen waving the rally flag," Nelson said following New York's 4-3 win over the Boston Red Sox in Game 3 of the AL championship series.
"I told him if you're rooting for the Red Sox, why don't you go in their bullpen," Nelson said. "He jumped in my face and tried to take a swing at me."
It's clear from this passage that Williams was in the Yankee pen. According to Nelson, it was Williams who started the fight.
With tempers already high following a bench-clearing melee earlier in the game, Nelson took exception to Paul Williams, who was waving a white flag in the bullpen in the ninth inning. The reliever told Williams he didn't like it, and the two started to fight.
"He was standing in our bullpen waving the rally flag," Nelson said following New York's 4-3 win over the Boston Red Sox in Game 3 of the AL championship series.
"I told him if you're rooting for the Red Sox, why don't you go in their bullpen," Nelson said. "He jumped in my face and tried to take a swing at me."
It's clear from this passage that Williams was in the Yankee pen. According to Nelson, it was Williams who started the fight.
No, I think "A pox on both your houses" still sums up my feelings about everything, as it has since before Game 1 began.
I'm starting to agree with Craig. After today's debacle I don't know if I care much who wins this series.
On the two major incidents. 1) I personally think pedro did nothing wrong. Maybe backing up was an option, but lets face it, wouldnt you be pretty surprised to see zimmer coming at you. My reaction would be too laugh and avoid. Pedro probably didnt need to pull on zimmers neck too hard to make him fall, he probably was on his way down anyway. 2) I dont think there is enought to make any judgement on the bullpen issue. While watching it did seem like the fans above the bullpen were screaming and yelling at the law enforcement-types. I took that as a they(yankees players) started it, not the employee.
Was I the only one who initially thought that Pedro was tossing David Wells on the ground?
Cristian! That's so weird. That was my first visual reaction exactly: It's Wells vs. Pedro!
Of those with a cheering interest, my office in Manhattan is about 70% Yankee fans/bandwagoners, and 30% Met fans/New England ex-pats rooting for the Red Sox. Whenever people ask me what I want to happen, I say "stadium collapse."
Go Cubs!
Of those with a cheering interest, my office in Manhattan is about 70% Yankee fans/bandwagoners, and 30% Met fans/New England ex-pats rooting for the Red Sox. Whenever people ask me what I want to happen, I say "stadium collapse."
Go Cubs!
Other than perhaps a sequel to "How to Lose A Guy In Ten Days" (how about "How to Write a Hollywood Hit in 44 Seconds?), there is nothing I care less about than who wins this series. Screw Pedro, screw Manny, screw Wells, screw Nelson. Screw 'em all.
Seriously, just when you think American sports couldn't hit a new low, they go right out and plunge even lower. I've had it with these goons; I'm not watching another game. And believe it or not, this week my wife and I are a Nielson family, so FOX can stick it in their ear.
Go Cubs, indeed.
Seriously, just when you think American sports couldn't hit a new low, they go right out and plunge even lower. I've had it with these goons; I'm not watching another game. And believe it or not, this week my wife and I are a Nielson family, so FOX can stick it in their ear.
Go Cubs, indeed.
Did MLB hire WWE's promo team to make this series a marketable commodity?
http://economics.about.com
I gotta run in a few seconds, but I thought I'd make this quick comment.
Mike
I gotta run in a few seconds, but I thought I'd make this quick comment.
The umps completely blew it yesterday
Mike
Bottom line: Zimmer charged at Martinez (who started backing up) and all Pedro did was pull him down and to the side. In self-defense! It looked so bad on first glance (and he ended up rolling so much) because you only see Zim at the last second and he was moving so fast to begin with.
Look, Pedro did start the whole thing, but that specific incident was completely Zimmer's fault.
Look, Pedro did start the whole thing, but that specific incident was completely Zimmer's fault.
Cristian, I thought it was Wells too when I saw the bald head being thrown to the ground. I would never have been suprised to see him in the middle of a brawl.
Regardless, this series is horrific in terms of cheering. Pedro was entirely responsible for the brawl yesterday (hitting Garcia, pointing at his head, the Zimmer incident where he could have retreated a bit) and Manny was looking for a reason to fight. The Red Sox fans are so obnoxious with regards to their curse, it makes it seem like the Cubs have won it recently, and how many casual fans know the White Sox have been without a victory since 1917? The Red Soz have a ridiculous payroll too, and tried to hire away Billy Beane.
All I know is I'm hopping for some World Series gems from Prior and Wood.
Regardless, this series is horrific in terms of cheering. Pedro was entirely responsible for the brawl yesterday (hitting Garcia, pointing at his head, the Zimmer incident where he could have retreated a bit) and Manny was looking for a reason to fight. The Red Sox fans are so obnoxious with regards to their curse, it makes it seem like the Cubs have won it recently, and how many casual fans know the White Sox have been without a victory since 1917? The Red Soz have a ridiculous payroll too, and tried to hire away Billy Beane.
All I know is I'm hopping for some World Series gems from Prior and Wood.
Personally I think the umps made the correct descision. You can't throw out Roger because the pitch was nowhere near Ramirez. You can't throw out Ramirez because all he did was yell. You can't throw out Pedro for defending himself, and you can't throw out Zimmer because all he really did was run and put up his arm. After seeing the Cuzzi/Halliday debacle, it was nice to see some sensible umpiring.