Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
Okay, first, if you don't subscribe to Lee Sinins' excellent "Around the Majors" daily e-mail report, stop what you're doing -- reading this, I guess -- and go do that. Now, I tell you. NOW! GO!

In today's edition, Sinins includes an item about Mike Hampton; a chart accompanies the item listing the top (bottom?) 10 active pitchers in most strikeouts below the league average.

Here are the names you'll find on that list:


Hampton. Glavine. Buehrle. Rueter. Anderson (Brian). Suppan. Mays. Okay, throw in Anderson (Jimmy), Sparks and Cornejo.

Even with those last three included, it strikes me ... there aren't too many managers who would be upset having to choose a five-man rotation from that list of candidates.

So here's the questions ...
- OK, it's mostly lefties. Who didn't expect that?
- It's almost exclusively starting pitchers.
- There are (I think) six former All-Stars in that group.

Does that mean ...
- In order to overcome a lack of strikeouts, a pitcher must be so overwhelmingly talented in other areas that he usually becomes a star?
- Are all the hard throwers going to the bullpen these days?

Just wondering. Seemed like a good conversation point. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Buehrle?
Flamethrowers Need Not Apply | 7 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Craig B - Thursday, October 02 2003 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#32833) #
Any list of active players who are the most below average in nearly any category (batting average, home runs, walks, etc.) is going to produce a list of good players, because it's a list of guys who have played several years in the league. These players are almost always OK players.

2002-2003 records of those guys...

Hampton 21-23
Glavine 27-25
Buehrle 33-26
Rueter 24-13
Mays 12-16
Suppan 22-27
Sparks 8-22
Cornejo 7-22
Brian Anderson 20-22
Jimmy Anderson 9-18

overall record, 183-214 over 20 player-seasons. Not all that bad.
_Jacko - Thursday, October 02 2003 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#32834) #
Most (if not all) of those guys are control freaks. They don't have the gas to blow people away, but their control is (usually) good enough that they don't leave any meatballs in the sweet spot of the strike zone.

Hijack:

It's sort of related -- I've been thinking about K rates recently.

Baseball Prospectus views a drop in K rate as a sign of impending trouble for pitcher. That is, they are not as dominant as they used to me.

However, after watching Halladay this year, it seems that a drop in K rate can also be an indication of a pitcher maturing and becoming more efficient in their approach.

Roy has learned to how to get guys out without striking them out. He can still K guys when he needs to, but he doesn't try to strike everyone out any more because he doesn't need to. And the advantage is that he can throw complete games on less than 100 pitches.

Mariano Rivera is the other guy who's K rate has fallen from his first couple years in the big leagues. And BP thought he was injured. I think he just learned he can throw his cutter all the time and induce weak ground balls.
_Jonny German - Thursday, October 02 2003 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#32835) #
It's almost exclusively starting pitchers

The thing is, Sinins likes counters over rates in a big way. You're not going to see a reliever in a list like this becuase they don't throw enough innings to rack up a big total of "league strikeouts" to compare against their own strikeouts.

One time I asked Lee if he has considered normalizing his numbers to give them more context. He didn't reply. Another time I told Lee he was getting absurd with his ranting about what a useless stat Wins are. He banned me. Good thing I have more than one e-mail address.
_Mick - Thursday, October 02 2003 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#32836) #
So, does the self-selection of this particular list, in addition to favoring guys who have been around a while, also favor starters over relievers because of the presumptive increase in career innings pitched?
_sef - Thursday, October 02 2003 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#32837) #
Jacko: Doc's K rate has gone up this year to 6.90 from 6.32...
Craig B - Thursday, October 02 2003 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#32838) #
However, after watching Halladay this year, it seems that a drop in K rate can also be an indication of a pitcher maturing and becoming more efficient in their approach.

Roy has learned to how to get guys out without striking them out. He can still K guys when he needs to, but he doesn't try to strike everyone out any more because he doesn't need to. And the advantage is that he can throw complete games on less than 100 pitches.


I actually *would* be concerned with Halladay's drop in K rate if he had had one... he hasn't. What he has had, is a decline in his walk rate. The 266 innings at barely over 100 pitches a start is a result of a miniscule walk rate, instead of a low K rate.

Why do I say this? Look at his AL counterparts who had about 7 K per 9 innings (starters with 6.5 to 7.5 K/9)... Halladay is at 6.90.

Halladay had 13.6 pitches per inning, easily the best in the AL.

Joaquin Benoit - 18.5
Ted Lilly - 16.5
R.A. Dickey - 17.2
Casey Fossum - 17.2
Billy Traber - 16.7
Jeremy Affeldt - 16.6
Scot Shields - 15.4
John Lackey - 16.1
Sterling Hitchcock - 17.9

Why are these guys throwing so many pitches?

Walk rates. Not only do walks prolong innings, meaning more batters and more pitchers, they involve throwing tons of pitches. Look at the K/W rates of these guys (remember, they are all about the same K rate, so the K/W will approximate their walk rate)...

Benoit 1.71
Lilly 2.53
Dickey 2.47
Fossum 1.85
Traber 2.20
Affeldt 2.58
HALLADAY 6.38
Shields 2.92
Lackey 2.29
Hitchcock 2.00

Notice too how the guys with the relatively higher walk rates threw more pitches per inning.

Halladay is the poster boy for the "throw strikes" philosophy.

The Rivera point is interesting. Rivera is an odd duck; this, of all pitchers, is an example of a guy with a really good BABIP record. Rivera, of course, doesn't even bother to set guys up, he just throws that cutter and a good straight sinking fastball, always down in the zone, and hopes to jam lefties and force righties to hit it softly the other way.

But Rivera's K rate, which declined a lot a few years ago, actually went back up the last couple of years. His stuff is too good to hit.
_Jacko - Thursday, October 02 2003 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#32839) #

Jacko: Doc's K rate has gone up this year to 6.90 from 6.32...


Er oops.

Perception and reality are once again out of sync :)

It seemed like every time Roy had a great start this year, he didn't strike out all that many guys...

Next time I check the numbers first.

And before anyone else kindly points it out, Rivera's K rate did drop in 98/99/00, but then came right back up again in 01/02/03 (though not to pre-98 levels).
Flamethrowers Need Not Apply | 7 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.