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Richard Griffin shows his Jekyll and Hide side in his latest article. Until the last two paragraphs he has an interersting piece on Ichiro and the way he has expended the Mariner's recognition and popularity with the local Asian community and in Japan. Being Griffin of course he can't help ruin it with a silly ending statement - " If the Jays don't make a run at [new Asian phenomenon Kazuo Matsui] this winter they are showing they are content with mediocrity and a safe bottom line." Take away the hyperbole though and there is an intriguing idea.



Being a Brit I see the obvious parallel with David Beckham. Beckham is the English soccer captain and is married to Posh Spice. He is extra-ordinarily popular in Asia, mainly it seems because he gets his hair cut a lot and has a penchant for wearing Sarongs. In last years World Cup in Korea England had to hire dozens of extra security guards to protect Beckham and could fill stadiums for training sessions, entriely due to the Beckham phenomenon. He was transferred over the summer from Man Utd to Real Madrid, United's 'old school' boss Alex Ferguson was convinced Beckham was more concerned with being Davoid Beckham celebrity than David Beckham midfielder, and complained that Beckham saved his best performances for the brighter spotlight of England games.

The interesting point is that Madrid hired him more for his marketing potential in Asia (and the hundreds of thousands of Beckham replica shirts they can now sell) than his footballing skills. They already had Raul, of Portugal, the best right-sided midfielder in the world, they did not need David Beckham. In baseball terms this would be like Texas trading for Derek Jeter, Beckham however is part-player and part-merketing campaign for Madrid. Madrid did not measure or evaluate Beckham as they would any other player.

The worth of Ichiro and Beckham to their organisations is far more than their value as players alone. Their star power puts them in a different class.

Kazuo Matsui might, it seems, be similiar. If he is how do the Jays decide his value ? Given the large Asian community here is he worth more to Toronto than to a franchise with a less culturally diverse catchment area ?
The Ichiro Syndrome | 52 comments | Create New Account
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_Mick - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#94564) #
First, Griffin's line about combining "the cool of Johnny Depp ..." (emphasis added) -- uh, yeah. And the star power of David Caruso and athletic prowess of Brian Bosworth.

I hate to break this to everyone, and I know it will come as a huge shock to everyone, but there are only half a dozen teams that "The Other" Matsui might sign with.

Yankees. Duh.
Mets. See above.
Dodger or Angels.
Mariners.
Maybe the Red Sox.

If the Blur Jays offered the guy A-Rod money -- and I mean in USD$, not Canadian -- they might stay at the table for a while. But the media-savvy Japanese superstars are going to gravitate to the big coastal media markets for the PR and endorsement opportunities, period.

The Mariners are the exception because of the unbelieveable branding they have managed in Japan, because of the good will they have built by being the first team to actively open doors for multiple Japanese players (apologies to the Dodgers, there, who had a chance and blew it) ... and because the owner is a Japanese businessman. Don't underestimate the importance of that little nugget.
Mike D - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#94565) #
Weird. I guess it must be because I have been following Ichiro this week, but the "wouldn't it be cool if the Jays took a run at Kaz Matsui" thought actually occurred to me at work yesterday. The same thought occurred to Griff...

What's the exact opposite of "great minds think alike"?
_Jordan - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#94566) #
Gwyn, you're too quick for me. Here's my contribution on the subject.

For starters, let's recall that the Mariners paid $13 million just for the right to talk with Ichiro three years ago. Put differently, that's a Halladay, a Hinske and a Wells in 2004, with change left over for a Catalanotto. Let's also recall that the Yankees forked out $21 million to land Hideki Matsui last winter, a sum the Jays would happily pay for a Japanese player, if they wanted to lose Halladay in a couple of years. The fact is that the truly special free-agent talent coming out of Japan is the same as the truly special free-agent talent coming out of MLB -- totally out of the Jays' price range and out of their organizational plan. Kazuo Matsui is going to end up with one of five MLB teams, and Toronto ain't one of them, whether JP might like Kazuo in his infield or not.

Let's also remember two more things: one, the Jays have two excellent shortstop prospects in the minors in Russ Adams and Aaron Hill; even if Adams switches to second, signing Matsui would effectively block one of them and waste the draft pick in much the same way as the Yankees' spending sprees stunt their own prospects. And two, the afore-mentioned Hideki "Godzilla" Matsui, prodigious pounder of 50 home runs in Japan last year, is sitting at an 820 OPS, or five points lower than Brad Wilkerson. Ichiro remains the only true impact position player to have arrived in the majors from Japan, and until there's more data about how well Central League stats translate to American League production, throwing money at these guys in the hopes they'll work out is an unacceptable gamble for organizations that really do have "vision and imagination," not to mention a few grains of common sense.

It's the circle of life, Simba -- Rich makes an assertion and we refute it. Consider it our contribution to Gaia's magnificant cycle.
Craig B - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#94567) #
Kaz Matsui would be a great player to land for the Jays, who desperately need a good glove to tie the infield together.

The price, obviously, is a non-starter. Personally, I think it would be a worthwhile gamble, and a good idea to *look* at signing him, but if you're being risk-averse it's probably not going to work.

Incidentally, the idea that Seattle is some sort of prominent media market or worldwide port of call while Toronto is not, is *totally insane* in my view.

And Hideki Matsui is hitting very well, appears to have adjusted now, and I predict he will be a very valuable player for the duration of his contract. His season stats look worse than he has been performing because he struggled so badly out of the gate - not an uncommon problem for rookies.
_Gwyn - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#94568) #
Jordan - 'Ichiro and Scratchy' was a way cooler title though.
_Jacko - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#94569) #

#8782 Posted 08/14/2003 10:26 AM by Mike D:

Weird. I guess it must be because I have been following Ichiro this week, but the "wouldn't it be cool if the Jays took a run at Kaz Matsui" thought actually occurred to me at work yesterday. The same thought occurred to Griff...

What's the exact opposite of "great minds think alike"?


My friend Greg calls it a "tinfoil moment".

You had the thought first, and then griffin had some aliens swoop down and steal the thought from your brain. Or at least it seems that way.

Next time, make sure you're wearing your tinfoil hat!
Pistol - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#94570) #
Given the large Asian community here is he worth more to Toronto than to a franchise with a less culturally diverse catchment area ?

Yes, but how much over his playing value that is is the big question. I can't imagine that amount being anything over a million or two.

I believe San Diego would be in the running. They're looking to increase payroll significantly next year with the new park. I could see the O's also attempting to sign him. They did send Hideki Matsui an e-mail last winer......
_Simon - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#94571) #
Not to be nit picky but Figo is the Portugese guy that Real Madrid has playing right midfield. Along with Zidane, Raul, Morientes, and Roberto Carlos that is a dream team. Madrid has sunk millions into this team. They better pay for themself because otherwise there'll be in trouble.
_Simon - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#94572) #
Also, the notion of us going for a player just for his marketability is stupid. Ichiro is popular because he's a great player first, and Japanese second.
_Gwyn - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:08 AM EDT (#94573) #
Not to be nit picky but Figo is the Portugese guy that Real Madrid has playing right midfield

Simon - damn youre right. I knew Raul didnt sound right as I was typing it. Sould have looked it up and not been lazy.
_R Billie - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#94574) #
Isn't this the type of tactic the Argos used in bringing Rocket Ismael to Toronto? Of course, the owner turning out to be a complete fraud didn't help things. It may be apples and oranges but pouncing on a guy and investing what is the equivalent of a gazillion dollars to your team just for potential star power or marketing advantage that may or may not work out is a bit short sighted.

Kaz may turn out to be an excellent player. Maybe even the shortstop equivalent of Ichiro. But there's no way in heck pursuing him fits into either the Jays current budget or general strategy. If it works, great. If it doesn't work, you're potentially out $20 million that could have been used for more pressing things...like a bullpen.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#94575) #
http://economics.about.com
The problem is that the Toronto media is too enamored with quick fix solutions. Period. They don't have the interest or attention span to see a team build up from the "Ash"es to become a league power. That's why they generally applaud whenever the Leafs trade a prospect for a big league rental. Of course, now the Leafs have one of the worst minor league systems in the league, a high payroll, and no Stanley Cup Final appearances. They seem to want to re-create the 1992 Calgary Flames, which I know from personal experience is a bad idea. Plus the whole "Prince of Darkness" thing. :)

If the columnists could just get it in their heads that emulating the Leafs is not a good idea things would improve greatly.
_Aaron Hill & Ru - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#94576) #
Hi.
_dp - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 12:18 PM EDT (#94577) #
We could always sign Shinjo cheap...backing up Vern he'd hardly ever play, so it would minimize the impact of his horrid performance while still allowing the marketing dept to do their job.
_dp - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#94578) #
Russ, go hide until you can slug over .400 at AA.
_Mick - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#94579) #
Incidentally, the idea that Seattle is some sort of prominent media market or worldwide port of call while Toronto is not, is *totally insane* in my view.

Glad you agree with exactly what I wrote. "The Mariners are the exception ..."
Craig B - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 01:13 PM EDT (#94580) #
Good! Then I do agree.

Me bad reeding and riting.
_Cristian - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#94581) #
The idea that we need to land Kaz to create Beckham-like marketing opportunities in Asia is ludicrous. Does anyone realize that Beckham is not Asian? What we need is to hire some stylists to turn Halladay, Hinske, et al. into a bunch of metrosexual males. Then we can sell these guys to Asian consumers willing to buy cool.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#94582) #
http://economics.about.com
What we need is to hire some stylists to turn Halladay, Hinske, et al. into a bunch of metrosexual males. Then we can sell these guys to Asian consumers willing to buy cool.

I'd be willing to do it... my uncle even owns a salon! Plus I'd only have to lose about 10-15 pounds to look 'heroin chic'.

Mike
Craig B - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#94583) #
Cristian, I know that was tongue-in-cheek (hilarious article... I honestly cannot wrap my mind around that kind of perspective) but PLEASE, not so loud! With all these efforts to make baseball "cool" these days, I am seriously concerned that baseball's Powers That Be are going to start pulling crap like that.
Craig B - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#94584) #
I'd only have to lose about 10-15 pounds to look 'heroin chic'.

Heroin chic? Ugh, that's so 1996. :)

Mike, if you lost 15 pounds, you wouldn't look chic, you'd look transparent.
_Cristian - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#94585) #
Craig,

It's already begun and it has nothing to do with the Powers That Be. I think I came to this realization two years ago when the Indians and Mariners had a bench clearing brawl over Arthur Rhodes' diamond earrings.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#94586) #
http://economics.about.com
Mike, if you lost 15 pounds, you wouldn't look chic, you'd look transparent.

It's surprising what drinking a gallon of coffee a day can do for your metabolism.

Mike
_rodent - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#94587) #
Maybe Hinske, Halladay et al could get the Queer Eye for the Straight Guy makeover.
robertdudek - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#94588) #
Of these teams: NYY, NYM, ANA, LA, only the Dodgers are weak enough at shortstop to pursue Kaz. Perhaps Seattle, but Gillick said last night that they were happy with their three Japanese players, implying that they were not going to pursue another.
Mike D - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#94589) #
Rumours out of Anaheim have the Angels making a pitch for Kaz.
Pepper Moffatt - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#94590) #
http://economics.about.com
Maybe Hinske, Halladay et al could get the Queer Eye for the Straight Guy makeover.

He's not skinny enough. I don't know why that's important, but apparently it is. Maybe F-Cat would be a better choice.

Mike
_Cristian - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 02:38 PM EDT (#94591) #
While the Dodgers seem like a good fit for Kaz, I thought it was a given that they would be signing Tejada this summer.
_Shrike - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#94592) #
I don't think Gillick was ready to publicly divulge his interest in Kaz, myself. If he thinks Kaz is worth pursuing, the Mariners have as good a chance as any ML team to sign him.
_Simon - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#94593) #
Let's not forget that Beckham is actually not a bad player. He's not all show you know?
_Donkit R.K. - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 09:13 PM EDT (#94594) #
Mike, talking about the Maple Leafs having a depleted farm system is, I think, wrong. Maybe in St. John's, but they had Ian White, Brendan Bell, Brad Boyes, Matt Stajan, and Carlo Caolaiacovo playing for Team Canada at this past World Junior Championship (a team that I saw play in person). Besides that, they had by my count ( a very quick count that could have missed people ) at least 6 others in the tournament. In the end that totalled the most players in the tournament under contract to a single NHL team. That actually sounds like a pretty promising set of prospects ;-)

BTW, since I've mentioned the Juniors, Marc Andre-Fleury plays his JR. hockey approx. 2 and a half hours away from me. I have seen every playoff game he's played (except about 4). I also saw his first ever appearance as a 15 year old when Daniel Boisclair(Hurricanes 'prospect') was pulled from a game. If he doesn't make the NHL this year, and there's still a decent chance if he does, The Cape Breton Screaming Eagles should be in the 2004 Memorial Cup.
_Donkit R.K. - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#94595) #
I will say, Mike, that for the most part these players aren't in the AHL yet, but even there the Leafs have some tremendous individual talent even if they are "AAAA" guys (Brendan Leeb, Anders Erikson - 'NHL Bust to AHL star', Don MacLean though he left this year as a FA, and Mike Minard who was an All-Star goalie before a younger prospect or two displanted him from the starting role). And I know I'm missing some....
_Donkit R.K. - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#94596) #
Maybe this is now a one-sided conversation, but Kyle Wellwood is another forward that was in the Juniors for the Leafs while Brad Boyes didn't (played his first pro season in the AHL). There; now I have it straight.
_Donkit R.K. - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#94597) #
And as for the boys on the Rock, they had 3 20 goals scorers all in under 70 games and a 35 goal man Brad (oops) Leeb. Among the 20 goal scorers Boyes and Ponikarovsky are both potential Toronto regulars. Leeb, the epitome of "AAAA" was tied for thirs in goals in the AHL. In an earlier post I missed Bob Wren when mentioning solid "AAAA" guys. Anyway, I'm finished talkign to myself now...
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#94598) #
Sparky, gounds out to pitcher, Hinske flyout to centre field and and Wells grounded out to third. Gil Meche needed 7 pitches to get out of the inning.

Hope the power comes on for all of you soon.
Pete
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#94599) #
Ichiro grounded out to 1st on a 1 ball count. Carlos and Kelvim got a little tangled up but Carlos managed to get the tag on Ichiro. Rey Sanchez gounds out to Bordick. Escobar walks Boone on a 3-2 count. It doesn't look like Kelvim's relying on the heat so far tonite.

Ah, I stand corrected. Esco started Edgar of with an off speed pitch, then a 79 mph curve folowed up by a 95 mph heater to strike Edgar out on a 1-2 count. Kelvim had falled behind the first three hitters but dealt with Martinez effectively.
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#94600) #
2ND Inning
Dalgado with the count 3-2 dialed up a homer to right field to lead off the inning. He hit it on a 91 mph fastball. Meche's previous pitch was clocked at 96.

Myers works the count 3-2 and fouls off six pitches before grounding out to Olerud.

Cat, drops a 32 fastball down the leftfield line for a triple. Mabry playing out there tonite which might explain how the ball dropped but definitely why it was a triple.

Meche drops a curve on the outside corner to strike out Tom Wilson. Two out.

O-Dog grounds to Boone who tosses to to Olerud, three out. What looked very promising is shot.

Meche looks like he's going to be tough tonite. Over his last six starts he's had four stinkers but his last was a shutout Q. start.
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:39 PM EDT (#94601) #
Bottom 2nd

Olerud grounded out weakly to short.

Winn strikes out swinging after just missing a homer to right by inches past the foul pole.

Mabry hits a grounder past second for a single with two out.

Escobar pitches Wilson 3-0 before throwing a 93mph strike. Wilson flies out to shallow left.
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#94602) #
3rd Inning

Bordick flies out to left 2-2.

Sparky hits a hard liner to Mabry who made a nice running catch which certainly atones for his cock up on Cats tripe.

Hinske weakly grounds out to Boone to end the inning.

Meche has thrown 47 pitches 29 for strikes through 3.
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#94603) #
Bloomquist pops out to shallow centre on a 3-2 count. Kelvim continues to fall behind on the Seattle hitters.

Ichiro flys out to centre on a 0-2 count. He fouled off three before the flyout.

Rey Sanchez hits a first ball line drive to centre. 1 on and two out.

Bret Booone has apparently said Doc's the best pitcher in the league. Escobar strikes out Boone on a 3-2 split fingered fastball clocked at 83. Boone was away out in front of that pitch.

Through three Kelvim has given up 2 hits and one walk and 47pitiches and 29 strikes. Identical to Meche.
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:15 PM EDT (#94604) #
Top of the 4th

Wells flies out.

Meche has fallen behind Carlos 3-2 and then lays one in for Carlos to hit a triple to right centre over Winns head and off the wall for the triple. Winns in centre tonite in place of Cameron. Camies expected to miss two games with a strained groin.

Man on third, one out.

Myers at the plate. Myers ahead 3-2. Myers hits an rbi single past second to drive in Carlos.

Myers out at second stealing. Probably a hit and run but Cat didnt hit.

Cameron hits a two out line to right. Cats 2for2.

Meche is also falling behind in the counts.

Wilson hits a fly ball to the gap in centre left, Winn can't catch up with it and Wilson picks up his 37th rbi as Cat scored all the way from 1st.

Meche is up to 80 pitches after 32/3.

Wilson on second and Orlando at the dish. Hudson fouls off the 2-2 pitch to stay alive. Fouls off four pitches and then lobs one into shallow left. Wilson is running for home, Mabry throws one right on the money but just a little late.

Toronto 4 Seattle 0
Meche now at 90 pitches. Soriano is up in the pen.

Bordick flys out to centre.

After Meches first inning where he only threw 7 pitches the Jays are working the count and doing a great job fouling off a ton of pitches.
_Donkit R.K. - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:15 PM EDT (#94605) #
I'm an idiot. I was wondering why there was lack of updates, almost while simutaneously hearing the news broadcasts on one of the biggest blackouts in our history.

Gotta love Escobar :-)
_Donkit R.K. - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:18 PM EDT (#94606) #
This is a great game for Toronto's offense. Really working the pitcher, which is great to see. Especially a quality one like Meche.
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:22 PM EDT (#94607) #
Bottom 4

The Thurmanator has been sent down and Brian Bowles called up. I guess thats the end of that aaa experiment.

Edgar drives a liner over Sparkies head and off the wall for a double. Edgars quest for 500 doubles continues. He'll have to play next season to achieve it though with his wheels.

Olerud grounds out but moves Edgar over to third. Seattles playing a bit of small ball here now.

Kelvims throwing a few more low splitters about 84 to 86mph. Stikes out Winn with a 94 mph fastball on a 1-2 count.

Mabry dribbles one to pitcher. Escy picks it up and cooly through him out.

3 away.
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#94608) #
Hi ya Donkit RK,

Hey if your tuned into this game ... well I guess you are cuz you can post maybe you can continue the updates and I'll take a rest.
_Donkit R.K. - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#94609) #
I think Thurman needed one more start. Or maybe I should say deserved. Just to let you know, I'm now typing with one hand and knocking on wood with the other. Can anyone recall another Jays starter who looked good against the Angels but didn't quite pan out? Very different situation, I know, but one similarity.

*knock, knock, knock...*
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#94610) #
I thought this game was going to be a pitchers duel after two.
_Donkit R.K. - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:28 PM EDT (#94611) #
I'm down on the East Coast (Cape Breton, Nova Scotia) and was literally on my way to bed before posting that last message. I've been away for a couple of days and am just completely played out. Sorry, but I 'gots ta go'. Nice work so far, though (it was actually how I was following the game).
Gitz - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#94612) #
I've started a new game thread, so head there for discussion.
_Lefty - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#94613) #
Soriano in for Meche at the top of the fifth.

Soriano blows a 95 mph fastball past Sparky for a swining K.

I'll go out on a limb here and say this is where the pitching duel starts.

Winn just ran miles to make a great catch off a hard hit ball to centre by Hinske. Another Mariner outfielder atoned. Hinske's was robbed.

Wells drove a one hopped lightening shot off Soriano's shin for a base hit. That stung. Soriano throws a few pitches and says he's ok.

Dalgado lines one to Sanchez on the first pitch to end the inning.

ARE YUOR LIGHTS Back on yet.

This reminds me of a story. Oh, I'll keep it short. Back in the early eighties as a young man and a mini reccession in BC I went to Alberta to look for work. Got a job on the oil rigs. The National Energy Plan was in place. Everywhere you went cars had bumper stickers saying "Freeze in the dark Ont."

Sure glad its still summer.
Gitz - Thursday, August 14 2003 @ 11:41 PM EDT (#94614) #
Thanks, Lefty, but I'll take it from here, on the new thread.
_Lefty - Friday, August 15 2003 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#94615) #
Hey Donkit RK,
Have you ever been to the Lick a Chick, right across from the Tim's apparision in North Sidney? Tim's bits in the morning and chick at night.
A pal of mine lives right down the road from there.
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