Thanks to Gerry, who helped bring this to light in the Minor-League Update thread, here's a simply terrific article from the National Post about the Blue Jays' three star outfield prospects at New Haven: John-Ford Griffin, Alexis Rios and Gabe Gross. It is no stretch to envision those three at first base, left field and right field for the 2005 Blue Jays. It's great to see that for each one, their character and approach to the game rivals their natural talent. This story will put a smile on your face.
Great article, my only complaint was the lack of quotes from Alexis Rios. Must be the quiet one of the three. Cracked me up how Gross comes across as a stereotypical southern redneck.
For all the bad ink Gord Ash gets around here (by extension from "The Dark Years" of the franchise), I for one will be interested to see what we think of him 20 years from now, when we see where the talent he drafted ends up.
For all the bad ink Gord Ash gets around here (by extension from "The Dark Years" of the franchise), I for one will be interested to see what we think of him 20 years from now, when we see where the talent he drafted ends up.
Just a point of interest question:
Who has/had more effect on how both their organization approaches the draft and how they influence whom their Scouting Directors actually select/draft?
Gord Ash or J.P. Ricciardi?
To me, one will deserve a hell of a lot more credit for a drafts success than the other does...but maybe that's just me.
Who has/had more effect on how both their organization approaches the draft and how they influence whom their Scouting Directors actually select/draft?
Gord Ash or J.P. Ricciardi?
To me, one will deserve a hell of a lot more credit for a drafts success than the other does...but maybe that's just me.
Jonny he may be still quiet for lack of confidence about his English speaking, his remark about how shocked he was, so young, family behind ( family being a much more big thing than in "America" ) and the language barrier, may be an indication that he is a work on progress...
JP has only two drafts on his account ( the A's years won't tell you much, but that he is brigth and was working for a very special team of baseball people ) and it is early to have a sound judgement. If it is implied that Tim Wilkens was one of the best in the bussiness, most scouts and baseball people in general will agree, and it is a shame the BJ's could not use his expertise any more.
Ash limitations were not in the young talent aquisition area, it was mostly in his evaluation on what makes a winning team and how much to pay for a veteran and how to use wisely the team resources ( to many fiascos everybody can recall: Hamilton,Gonzalez and Loaiza's contracts just to start the list )
JP has only two drafts on his account ( the A's years won't tell you much, but that he is brigth and was working for a very special team of baseball people ) and it is early to have a sound judgement. If it is implied that Tim Wilkens was one of the best in the bussiness, most scouts and baseball people in general will agree, and it is a shame the BJ's could not use his expertise any more.
Ash limitations were not in the young talent aquisition area, it was mostly in his evaluation on what makes a winning team and how much to pay for a veteran and how to use wisely the team resources ( to many fiascos everybody can recall: Hamilton,Gonzalez and Loaiza's contracts just to start the list )
That's a good point Shane, and you shouldn't be afraid to come right out and say that you think I'm a idiot. You're probably right, Gordo probably was more inclined to just trust his scouts while we presume J.P. takes a more active role. My bad for not giving that much consideration. But Ash made the final calls and trusted those scouts, and we are only guessing at J.P.'s influence on the draft by extrapolating from what we read about Billy Beane in Moneyball. Maybe Keith Law is the real brains behind who the Blue Jays draft nowadays.
My more important and more general point is that Gord should be recognized for things he did right the same way J.P. is recognized for the things he's done right. We're all sky-high on Alexis Rios and Guillermo Quiroz now, and talk about them as if they're part of what Ricciardi's doing right. Two years they were "just more evidence that Gord's an idiot".
The converse is also true, Ricciardi shouldn't be given a free pass for things he's done wrong... the man is a huge improvement over Ash, but he's far from perfect. What has J.P. done wrong? Here are some examples off the top of my head: He's wasted the asset that was Jayson Werth, he signed Sturtze/Tam when Halama/Ligtenberg where available at similar rates and with higher upside, and he continues to allow his manager to play Russian roulette with his bullpen night in and night out. Am I second-guessing and making assumptions left and right? You bet I am, but that's never stopped us from ripping the likes of Ash.
My more important and more general point is that Gord should be recognized for things he did right the same way J.P. is recognized for the things he's done right. We're all sky-high on Alexis Rios and Guillermo Quiroz now, and talk about them as if they're part of what Ricciardi's doing right. Two years they were "just more evidence that Gord's an idiot".
The converse is also true, Ricciardi shouldn't be given a free pass for things he's done wrong... the man is a huge improvement over Ash, but he's far from perfect. What has J.P. done wrong? Here are some examples off the top of my head: He's wasted the asset that was Jayson Werth, he signed Sturtze/Tam when Halama/Ligtenberg where available at similar rates and with higher upside, and he continues to allow his manager to play Russian roulette with his bullpen night in and night out. Am I second-guessing and making assumptions left and right? You bet I am, but that's never stopped us from ripping the likes of Ash.
It looks like the article was written a few weeks ago. The Ravens have been on the road this week, and JP was definately in Toronto last night.
Also, the team is moving to Manchester, NH next year, but from what I heard from a resident there (I lived there before moving to CT) is that the new park won't be ready until 2005 and that they'll play in an old park next season.
Also, the team is moving to Manchester, NH next year, but from what I heard from a resident there (I lived there before moving to CT) is that the new park won't be ready until 2005 and that they'll play in an old park next season.
Jonny, I agree about JP- the decision to sign Sturtze was a bad one, and has probably turned out as bad as it could...giving Doug Creek a ML contract so early on was another mistake. I don't like any of his in-season pitching pickups except maybe Acevedo- they just don't strike me as having much upside at all. Justin Miller's injury hurt their depth a bit, as did Pete Walker going down. There was a lot of talent on the market superior to Sturtze, and for what they're paying him, Creek and Tam, they could've had a more dependable starter.
Toying with Werth was a mistake, but based on last year, he didn't seem ready for the majors this year anyway, so you can't really fault JP for his lack of development unless your going to credit him for the major jumps by Rios, Gross and Quiroz.
He's done a great job so far, and even a lot of moves I didn't trust have turned out well...Bordick, Myers, ect...but some others that haven't...
Toying with Werth was a mistake, but based on last year, he didn't seem ready for the majors this year anyway, so you can't really fault JP for his lack of development unless your going to credit him for the major jumps by Rios, Gross and Quiroz.
He's done a great job so far, and even a lot of moves I didn't trust have turned out well...Bordick, Myers, ect...but some others that haven't...
Who has/had more effect on how both their organization approaches the draft and how they influence whom their Scouting Directors actually select/draft?
I fail to see the relevance of this question. Suppose that Ash had absolutely no idea who he was drafting and he was basically acting as Tim Wilken's puppet. So what? The fact still remains that the Jays drafted well under his watch. Even if he didn't understand anything himself, he hired people who knew how to find talent. In the end, it's results that matter, and Ash's draft record is, in my opinion, quite good.
I'm with you, Jonny (and Jabonoso) when it comes to Ash. As for JP, I don't deny that he's made a few silly moves, but I'm quite willing to accept them along with the rest of the package. Tam and Sturtze and Creek put together have hurt the team less than Steve Parris did, both in the chequebook and on the field. It's easy to forget Koch/Hinske, the Mondesi dump, Tom Wilson, Thermal, Pete Walker, FLop for Arnold, Crash, Cat, Aquilino, the successful drafts, and the clearing of the dead wood to make room for Wells, Hudson, and Phelps, but these moves far, far outweigh the dubious pitching signings of last offseason.
John
I fail to see the relevance of this question. Suppose that Ash had absolutely no idea who he was drafting and he was basically acting as Tim Wilken's puppet. So what? The fact still remains that the Jays drafted well under his watch. Even if he didn't understand anything himself, he hired people who knew how to find talent. In the end, it's results that matter, and Ash's draft record is, in my opinion, quite good.
I'm with you, Jonny (and Jabonoso) when it comes to Ash. As for JP, I don't deny that he's made a few silly moves, but I'm quite willing to accept them along with the rest of the package. Tam and Sturtze and Creek put together have hurt the team less than Steve Parris did, both in the chequebook and on the field. It's easy to forget Koch/Hinske, the Mondesi dump, Tom Wilson, Thermal, Pete Walker, FLop for Arnold, Crash, Cat, Aquilino, the successful drafts, and the clearing of the dead wood to make room for Wells, Hudson, and Phelps, but these moves far, far outweigh the dubious pitching signings of last offseason.
John
Guys, there's no winners or losers here, and if anyone's taking the tag of "idiot" i'll fight you for it, alright?
Just one thing here though, Johnny G. intro'd this thing with talking about who would fare where in Blue Jaysdom because of the draft. So I, and I don't believe Johnny, was including anaylsis about free agents, trades, etc... Otherwise, sure the Sturtze's & Creek's or whom ever come into play on the overall critique.
All I was pointing out as i'm sure many would, we all know Ricciardi runs the Blue Jays Org top to bottom and is definetly a driving force in it's drafting policy, Gord Ash, while I have no hardcopy way of proving it, i'm sure we all can agree would have been "less" invloved in the Jays annual draft strategy. But, yes John, it's under Gordo's watch so sure he gets credit of course, whose denying him that? But in very short time the facts should look pretty clear...And actually, debating the differences between Gord Ash and J.P. Ricciardi would be pretty easy, but it makes for a long list, and there are far better posters here to do it than me.
Just one thing here though, Johnny G. intro'd this thing with talking about who would fare where in Blue Jaysdom because of the draft. So I, and I don't believe Johnny, was including anaylsis about free agents, trades, etc... Otherwise, sure the Sturtze's & Creek's or whom ever come into play on the overall critique.
All I was pointing out as i'm sure many would, we all know Ricciardi runs the Blue Jays Org top to bottom and is definetly a driving force in it's drafting policy, Gord Ash, while I have no hardcopy way of proving it, i'm sure we all can agree would have been "less" invloved in the Jays annual draft strategy. But, yes John, it's under Gordo's watch so sure he gets credit of course, whose denying him that? But in very short time the facts should look pretty clear...And actually, debating the differences between Gord Ash and J.P. Ricciardi would be pretty easy, but it makes for a long list, and there are far better posters here to do it than me.
I'd be better equipped to respond to that if I knew what you were talking about... winners or losers? Who said anything about winners or losers?
I didn't even mean to say anything about Ash vs. Ricciardi. I meant to say something about how we perceive the two. It seems to me that J.P. gets one big "Good G.M." label while Ash gets one big "Bad G.M." label... and I think that's silly, it's an oversimplification. I'm speculating that Ash will have a good draft record when it's all said and done, and I'm saying that J.P. hasn't been a shining star in everything he's done so far.
Ash vs. Ricciardi? I believe J.P. will be remembered as a much better G.M. than Gord. But Gord should not be remembered as all bad, because he wasn't.
Is the word "oversimplification" a sort of oxymoron of itself?
I didn't even mean to say anything about Ash vs. Ricciardi. I meant to say something about how we perceive the two. It seems to me that J.P. gets one big "Good G.M." label while Ash gets one big "Bad G.M." label... and I think that's silly, it's an oversimplification. I'm speculating that Ash will have a good draft record when it's all said and done, and I'm saying that J.P. hasn't been a shining star in everything he's done so far.
Ash vs. Ricciardi? I believe J.P. will be remembered as a much better G.M. than Gord. But Gord should not be remembered as all bad, because he wasn't.
Is the word "oversimplification" a sort of oxymoron of itself?
Johnny, I believe you're only talking about players acquired through the draft, "Yes"? Posters were picking sides, who agrees with who, so I was saying, sh*t let's keep the focus! This is has now gone numb, Gordo Ash will have a good drafting record -- all praise -- and so will J.P. Ricciardi, only we'll know that Ricciardi's drafts were run totally by him, to suit his requirements.
Man, some of these posts go stupid. It's basic english. I guess it's my fault.
Man, some of these posts go stupid. It's basic english. I guess it's my fault.
Shane,
I think this is largely my fault. I wasn't trying to gang up on you. Jonny had expressed some frustration that Ash doesn't seem to get much credit for the things he did well. I wanted to let him know that he isn't the only one who thinks that. When it comes to the larger point of who is the better overall GM, I agree with you that there is really no comparison (as does Jonny, judging from his last post).
We're long past the point of arguing anything substantial (and I have contributed as much as anyone to getting us here), so I'm going to call it quits.
Nice chatting with y'all,
John
I think this is largely my fault. I wasn't trying to gang up on you. Jonny had expressed some frustration that Ash doesn't seem to get much credit for the things he did well. I wanted to let him know that he isn't the only one who thinks that. When it comes to the larger point of who is the better overall GM, I agree with you that there is really no comparison (as does Jonny, judging from his last post).
We're long past the point of arguing anything substantial (and I have contributed as much as anyone to getting us here), so I'm going to call it quits.
Nice chatting with y'all,
John
for my money, JP's worst move was letting Scott Eyre walk on waivers to the Giants... it wasn't much of a headline grabber but Eyre would be a nice cheap option right now.
Jayson Werth might be one of those players who can't cut down on his strikeouts enough to be a productive major league hitter. He may still turn it around, but there's no doubt that he's regressed somewhat this year.
He has the potential to be a very good defensive outfielder.
He has the potential to be a very good defensive outfielder.