We could be seeing a lot of rocket-red-glaring this evening in Baltimore, and not just because our friends south of the 49th are celebrating Independence Day. Kelvim Escobar returns to the mound against Baltimore for the first time since his, shall we say, ill-advised drilling of Jeff Conine set off an Orioles rally and a lot of hard feelings between two clubs that must be getting sick of one another by now. The Jays' current funk seemed to start with that game; hopefully they can turn it around today. It's an unusual 5:05 start to accommodate fireworks and families. Greg Myers and Frank Catalanotto will sit against Rick Helling.
Thanks for picking me up, Jordan, even though I now have 33.6 K modem access to the Internet on a screaming 486 laptop with 16 MB of RAM. I also have a family yelling at me for tying up the phone line, so I'll be an occasional visitor only, until Rogers technicians FIX THE DAMN CABLE!!!
Ten days ago, in the sixth inning, with one out and first base open, Escobar rang a fastball off Conine's helmet -- Jeff had homered in the fourth -- and woke up the Orioles. Baltimore responded by scoring four runs in that frame, knocking Kelvim out. Counting that day, the Jays (who were on a roll at the time) have lost 7 of 10. I'm not placing all the blame on one beanball, nor am I enough of a mind-reader to know if it was intentional. But if you're looking for a moment when things changed, it's as good as any.
The O's will be motivated for additional revenge today, so it's a tough assignment for Kelvim; as always, he must keep his cool to be effective. It will be the third meeting in 15 days for these pitchers -- Escobar went six strong innings and the Jays pounded Helling at Camden Yards on June 19. Could be explosive.
Ten days ago, in the sixth inning, with one out and first base open, Escobar rang a fastball off Conine's helmet -- Jeff had homered in the fourth -- and woke up the Orioles. Baltimore responded by scoring four runs in that frame, knocking Kelvim out. Counting that day, the Jays (who were on a roll at the time) have lost 7 of 10. I'm not placing all the blame on one beanball, nor am I enough of a mind-reader to know if it was intentional. But if you're looking for a moment when things changed, it's as good as any.
The O's will be motivated for additional revenge today, so it's a tough assignment for Kelvim; as always, he must keep his cool to be effective. It will be the third meeting in 15 days for these pitchers -- Escobar went six strong innings and the Jays pounded Helling at Camden Yards on June 19. Could be explosive.
Escobars pitching well, just about outta the fifth with a shutout.
The top of the order is coming up for the Jays to start the sixth. Its time to torch Mr. Helling just like last week at around this point of the game.
The top of the order is coming up for the Jays to start the sixth. Its time to torch Mr. Helling just like last week at around this point of the game.
Woo-hoo! What a throw by Reed Johnson to nail Surhoff at the plate! I can't remember the last time a Jays outfielder actually threw out a runner at home. Shades of Jesse Barfield. Inning over, scoreless after 5.
What a throw by Reed Johnson! One hop, right to the glove to nail a surprised Surhoff and keep it scoreless.
Super Kelvim in the house!
Come on Delgado, drive'em in...
Come on Delgado, drive'em in...
I'm following the came on Gamecast and saw that O-dog had to leave the game. What happened? Does it look like he got seriously hurt?
Hinske's blast was tremendous, but the Hudson injury doesn't look good. Could be a Bordick/Clark platoon at 2B for a while, and they might even want Cat to start taking some ground balls.
Reed Johnson made an incredible throw to pick up his team while deflating the O's, and Tom Wilson gunned out a would-be base stealer. Delgado now has 92 RBI, fourth-best all-time before the break. Escobar's poise has matched his stuff, and Boston is crushing the Yankees. It's been a pretty good day, except for O-Dog's groin pull.
Kelvim has thrown 87 pitches through six, so he's probably not going to finish this one. Acevedo needs at least an inning of work, regardless of the score.
Reed Johnson made an incredible throw to pick up his team while deflating the O's, and Tom Wilson gunned out a would-be base stealer. Delgado now has 92 RBI, fourth-best all-time before the break. Escobar's poise has matched his stuff, and Boston is crushing the Yankees. It's been a pretty good day, except for O-Dog's groin pull.
Kelvim has thrown 87 pitches through six, so he's probably not going to finish this one. Acevedo needs at least an inning of work, regardless of the score.
Hudson was running out a fielders choice and pulled his groin.
It isn't quite Super Kelvim, but an encouragin start nonetheless. The Hudson injury should stop the playing time woes as long as he's gone if Cat can play 2nd. They could play Cat at second, Phelps at DH and have an outfield of Stewart-Wells-Johnson. If only Hudson could play short and Woodward could be a super utility type off the bench.
Jordan, is that selective memory forgetting Raul Mondesi? I can't say for certain he threw anyone out at the plate but I can remember, fondly, some of the strikes he threw to third.
I realize the Hudson/Woody remark was foolish wishful thinking but it sprang to mind while thinking about the lineup without Orlando. I still think trading Stewart is best, even in order to contend this year. I agree that he IS a better player than Johnson the defense gets a big kick with Reed in right and The F Cat in left. They must be able to get a no. 5 starter for this guy or a solid middle reliever. Maybe even one of those and a 4th OF. I don't think the prospect you get in return for him would be worth it, but I think he can help a playoff run with MLB ready role players coming our way.
I'm not sure we need role players for Stewart. We got Clark, Johnson, Werth, Berg and Bordick. Pinch hitting ability from the two headed monster.
If they're going to trade Stewart it has to be for pitching.
Aq's gone and done it. Ouch. Pitching me thinks. As well, as has been speculated on this page Aquillino could be either hurt or have a dead arm. The ball isn't nearly as sharp as it was three or so weeks ago. To bad.
To late to get Leskanic I guess.
If they're going to trade Stewart it has to be for pitching.
Aq's gone and done it. Ouch. Pitching me thinks. As well, as has been speculated on this page Aquillino could be either hurt or have a dead arm. The ball isn't nearly as sharp as it was three or so weeks ago. To bad.
To late to get Leskanic I guess.
Escobar stayed in one batter too long, and so did Lopez, who wasn't as sharp as he can be. I'm not going to second-guess Tosca for those decisions, but why Sturtze? Fordyce was hitting over .450 against Tanyon, and ripped him again. What are they saving Acevedo for?
This game can break your heart.
This game can break your heart.
This one goes to Tosca's account. Always too many pitches after...
Well we've seen just about every reliever melt down over the past couple days now.
I really don't want to hear what a brain JP is until he fixes this shite.
That was completely unfair to the starting pitcher generally and particularly unfair to this team.
Bloody awful.
I really don't want to hear what a brain JP is until he fixes this shite.
That was completely unfair to the starting pitcher generally and particularly unfair to this team.
Bloody awful.
No, I don't blame Tosca for this one. He has no bullets in his gun. How can he have any confidence in the pen. I will blame him however for his overuse of Lopez previously. This is what you get.
Heartbreaking, yup I'll echo that.
Heartbreaking, yup I'll echo that.
Don't we have a better hitter than Bordick on the bench?
Jabonoso, if Howie Clark had hit for Bordick and Myers for Woodward, the Jays would have had no SS if they tied it up. Don't we have a better baserunner than Reed Johnson, who took off on a line drive while trailing by three? Absolutely unforgivable.
Maybe I shouldn't say role players, like, we don't need a bench guy. I mean a fifth, or fourth starter who is capable of pitching 6 innings and leaving with the lead right now. Or a good middle reliever that can bridge the gap from the sixth to the eigth or something along those lines. I'm saying I'd rather that than a second tier pitching prospect who isn't as good as McGowan, Thurman, Bush, or Arnold anyway.
Damn, this streak IS getting ugly. Isn't too early to be ready to panic now. Maybe not panicking, but ready to hit the panic button.
Damn, this streak IS getting ugly. Isn't too early to be ready to panic now. Maybe not panicking, but ready to hit the panic button.
Hey Donkit,
Now your talking. A top 20% middle reliever and a no. 3 starter. And if JP doesn't panick now then theres no sense getting all worked up.
I truly believe management is showing negligence now. Actually, I said in a post a couple daze ago that I think they've already made up there mind.
This team is two pieces away. Two easy pieces.
I'm not going to jump on the rook Johnson either. He has been electic running the bases since he's been up. Matos got caught stealing third and they still won.
Kelvim pitched a very nice game today. Now he truly knows how Doc felt in April.
I think it is encumbent on JP to speak to the team and the fans because this is maddening. He needs to get off the fence now. He shoulda been off it last week when all of this was becoming very very clear.
Now your talking. A top 20% middle reliever and a no. 3 starter. And if JP doesn't panick now then theres no sense getting all worked up.
I truly believe management is showing negligence now. Actually, I said in a post a couple daze ago that I think they've already made up there mind.
This team is two pieces away. Two easy pieces.
I'm not going to jump on the rook Johnson either. He has been electic running the bases since he's been up. Matos got caught stealing third and they still won.
Kelvim pitched a very nice game today. Now he truly knows how Doc felt in April.
I think it is encumbent on JP to speak to the team and the fans because this is maddening. He needs to get off the fence now. He shoulda been off it last week when all of this was becoming very very clear.
To me, there are 2 options - give up on this season and start trying to trade some of the salaries, or make more than a half-hearted attempt (ie. Scott Service) at improving the bullpen.
Coming into this game, the Jays ranked 27th in bullpen ERA, ahead of only the Rangers, Bosox and Royals. Of the teams currently in first or second in their divisions, only the Sox, Cards and Royals rank in the bottom half. While I think the Jays' starting pitching would be enough to win if they had a decent 'pen, the performance of this relief group simply puts too much pressure on the starters. Lopez seems to have taken some steps backward, Sturtze is his usual self again, and Service has lately been showing why he was waived in Arizona.
I'm not pressing the panic button, but I think everyone should come to the realization that this team - at least with its current pitching staff - has no chance at a playoff spot. We'll see occasional flashes of brilliance from the team, but they can't keep in the race over 162 games with the players they have.
Coming into this game, the Jays ranked 27th in bullpen ERA, ahead of only the Rangers, Bosox and Royals. Of the teams currently in first or second in their divisions, only the Sox, Cards and Royals rank in the bottom half. While I think the Jays' starting pitching would be enough to win if they had a decent 'pen, the performance of this relief group simply puts too much pressure on the starters. Lopez seems to have taken some steps backward, Sturtze is his usual self again, and Service has lately been showing why he was waived in Arizona.
I'm not pressing the panic button, but I think everyone should come to the realization that this team - at least with its current pitching staff - has no chance at a playoff spot. We'll see occasional flashes of brilliance from the team, but they can't keep in the race over 162 games with the players they have.
Panic? About what? A disappointing game? A few of them in ten days? Sheesh. George Steinbrenner has more patience than you people.
Lefty, you are way off base with this "negligence" remark. No GM works harder to improve his team than J.P., who never loses sight of the big picture. Have you ever bothered to consider how difficult it is to compete in the AL East with a budget half of Boston's and a third of New York's? Of course there are going to be holes in the lineup -- the first baseman makes more than a third of the payroll! It's nonsense to call "a top 20% middle reliever and a no. 3 starter" easy pieces. Do you see anyone giving them away?
Why does J.P. have to "get off the fence?" Because you say so? He (and Paul Godfrey) made it abundantly clear that they will decide if they are buyers or sellers after the four upcoming series with the Yankees and Red Sox. That seemed reasonable when they said it, and it's reasonable now. It's a good thing the team isn't being run by the knee-jerk bandwagon jumpers.
Lefty, you are way off base with this "negligence" remark. No GM works harder to improve his team than J.P., who never loses sight of the big picture. Have you ever bothered to consider how difficult it is to compete in the AL East with a budget half of Boston's and a third of New York's? Of course there are going to be holes in the lineup -- the first baseman makes more than a third of the payroll! It's nonsense to call "a top 20% middle reliever and a no. 3 starter" easy pieces. Do you see anyone giving them away?
Why does J.P. have to "get off the fence?" Because you say so? He (and Paul Godfrey) made it abundantly clear that they will decide if they are buyers or sellers after the four upcoming series with the Yankees and Red Sox. That seemed reasonable when they said it, and it's reasonable now. It's a good thing the team isn't being run by the knee-jerk bandwagon jumpers.
Coach, I am humbled :-) . IMO, though, the playoffs this year is falling out fo reach. Contradicting that, though, is that I think the Jays should be buyers because their offense is so good, they should be trying to insure a playoff trip this year. I don't think Stewart could fetch a no.3 OR a top notch reliever. But could he get a proven no. 4 AND a relief guy a few notches above Doug Creek or Jeff Tam?
To follow up on that, maybe the lineup shuffle would help some players. Maybe Hinske, like Stewart as a leadoff man, is just comfortable at the two? We could have Cat-Hinske-Wells at the top of the order followed by Carlos-Frankencatcher-Phelps-Hudson-Johnson-Woodward. Maybe Hudson could lead off , put Cat at the three and have Wells driving in Delgado? I simply think that, right now, the lineup would be better without Stewart unless he can perform in the three hole which he hasn't been able to do yet.
Coach, I wouldn't consider myself a bandwagon jumper - only a realist. I'd be absolutely shocked if they somehow remained in contention after the Sox-Yanks stretch, and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if they manage it. I think the timing of my remarks, coming after a brutal loss, might make it sound like I'm deserting ship or running around like the proverbial headless chicken.
I don't blame J.P. for waiting, but I believe he'll be selling next month. And maybe that's not such a bad thing.
I don't blame J.P. for waiting, but I believe he'll be selling next month. And maybe that's not such a bad thing.
Is there a market for a Stewart out there right now? the only team I can see right now that may need an OF is the Dodgers, there is a mention of a possible trade between LA and the Yankees, Mondesi for Paul Shuey
Well Oakland has been mentioned and with Harden almost ready they have a surplus of starters, maybe Harang or a prospect, besides Billy won't be shy about over paying (if) because there is always the poss of an adjustment TBNL.
Seattle may have some interest but less likely.
Seattle may have some interest but less likely.
Don't go refering to me as a bandwagon jumper as well. Its baseball season till the end of October. But I don't where rose coloured glasses either.
There are relievers available. How about Kim and Leskanic as two who quickly come to mind. Have a look at Leskanic debut line for the Royals the other day, for cripes sake the Kansas City Royals. It was one inning no ratio and the 3 K's. Exactly how he was pitching the past month with the Brewers. To top that off he is pitching for free for the rest of the year.
Shadow mentions Shuey. Well known fact as well. I actually believe the Dodgers would prefer Stew over Mondesi. And as you have mentioned they should clear Stew out so that Johson gets to play everyday. Not that I agree that Johnson should play everyday but it has been mentioned time and again. Pleae remember, earlier I defended Johnson. People need to read all of ones comments and not cherry pick what they don't like,don't you think.
Craig spot on. The Jays are slipping back, partly becuase of what the opposition is doing but more because of what the Jays are not doing. And if people think that JP is not responsible for giving the team their present scrap heap bullpen then I'm sorry we depart on reality.
The bullpen is making real money, when the Royals get a top %20 reliever for free. We always talk about the need for the team to be cost conscious. My this isn't the way to go about it, plucking rejects off the street.
The July rules changed last year with the Spos Colon deal. And its further evolving.
JP knew either knew what he had for pitching at the beginning of the season or at least he should have known. Unfortunatly this team went on a run and threw the five year plan off track. JP came out and said that if the team is in a position to go for it they will. Well he's letting that position slip. Intentionally? I'm not sure. But I do suspect he has made his mind up and he ain't goin for it. Jp is the one who allowed the expectations to rise. He's the boss and should know the buck stops with him.
And finally I'm not telling him nothing, I'm just one wee Jays fanatic who see's a chance or perhaps seen a chance for a magical season.
Just call me disappointed but on the wagon since the teams inception.
Now I'll have a drink.
There are relievers available. How about Kim and Leskanic as two who quickly come to mind. Have a look at Leskanic debut line for the Royals the other day, for cripes sake the Kansas City Royals. It was one inning no ratio and the 3 K's. Exactly how he was pitching the past month with the Brewers. To top that off he is pitching for free for the rest of the year.
Shadow mentions Shuey. Well known fact as well. I actually believe the Dodgers would prefer Stew over Mondesi. And as you have mentioned they should clear Stew out so that Johson gets to play everyday. Not that I agree that Johnson should play everyday but it has been mentioned time and again. Pleae remember, earlier I defended Johnson. People need to read all of ones comments and not cherry pick what they don't like,don't you think.
Craig spot on. The Jays are slipping back, partly becuase of what the opposition is doing but more because of what the Jays are not doing. And if people think that JP is not responsible for giving the team their present scrap heap bullpen then I'm sorry we depart on reality.
The bullpen is making real money, when the Royals get a top %20 reliever for free. We always talk about the need for the team to be cost conscious. My this isn't the way to go about it, plucking rejects off the street.
The July rules changed last year with the Spos Colon deal. And its further evolving.
JP knew either knew what he had for pitching at the beginning of the season or at least he should have known. Unfortunatly this team went on a run and threw the five year plan off track. JP came out and said that if the team is in a position to go for it they will. Well he's letting that position slip. Intentionally? I'm not sure. But I do suspect he has made his mind up and he ain't goin for it. Jp is the one who allowed the expectations to rise. He's the boss and should know the buck stops with him.
And finally I'm not telling him nothing, I'm just one wee Jays fanatic who see's a chance or perhaps seen a chance for a magical season.
Just call me disappointed but on the wagon since the teams inception.
Now I'll have a drink.
Emotions understandably running high after such a tough loss.
I'll mention this here re: L.A. A few weeks ago Tom Maloney (former National Post baseball beat writer and now the Calgary Herald Sports Editor) did an interview with J.P.(Unfortunately since it ran in an Izzy Asper paper no internet link is available.) The article was pretty blase,but I found this interesting, Maloney asked Riccardi what move he regretted making most during his tenure...J.P. surprised me by stating that he wished he never had traded Paul Quantrill and wouln't mind getting him back.
I'll mention this here re: L.A. A few weeks ago Tom Maloney (former National Post baseball beat writer and now the Calgary Herald Sports Editor) did an interview with J.P.(Unfortunately since it ran in an Izzy Asper paper no internet link is available.) The article was pretty blase,but I found this interesting, Maloney asked Riccardi what move he regretted making most during his tenure...J.P. surprised me by stating that he wished he never had traded Paul Quantrill and wouln't mind getting him back.
Ah Wildrose, a man after my own heart. One who would critise the boss of Canwest. Thanks for your comments last week too. I hear rumours the Post will be killed pretty soon.
I think the one thing that JP has realized since his trade of Quantrill is the need for that one steadying hand in the bullpen. Although Quantrill was overpaid for his innings pitched, how much better would he have made the bullpen having him out there with scrapheap help rather than 5 stiffs? At least we know JP shouldn't make the same mistake twice.
Getting a bit off topic, but just a few weeks ago about 10-15 writers left the Post for other papers, including the Globe and the Star. Christie Blachford was the only name I'm familiar with, but that might be the first sign of a sinking ship.
Panic? About what? A disappointing game? A few of them in ten days? Sheesh. George Steinbrenner has more patience than you people.
Wait a minute here, there I am sitting--off the wagon--thinking, (I know, oh oh)and I remember that Cashman went out and secured the services of Dan Mecili, Karim Garcia and Reuben Sierra. Not that they were panicking though. I'd just say taking care of business.
Wait a minute here, there I am sitting--off the wagon--thinking, (I know, oh oh)and I remember that Cashman went out and secured the services of Dan Mecili, Karim Garcia and Reuben Sierra. Not that they were panicking though. I'd just say taking care of business.
Let's not eat each other alive in here too too bad. Kent's the eternal optomist who loves to tow the company line, but even he knows, losing games to the Tigers & Orioles is now way to get/keep yourself in contention, let alone let your GM know you mean 'AL East' business. It's been a fun two months, and what ever happens in '03's final three months is a nice little bonus on the way to the clubs of '05,'06, &'07 -- if you believe in such things.
Wildrose, if you could, do you have the exact quote Ricciardi gave about Quantrill? If there was any context to that i'd love to hear it. Does that mean he'd pay a bullpen guy 3 million a season now? I would still doubt that, myself.
Wildrose, if you could, do you have the exact quote Ricciardi gave about Quantrill? If there was any context to that i'd love to hear it. Does that mean he'd pay a bullpen guy 3 million a season now? I would still doubt that, myself.
I still think that the Jays' long-term plan is sound, but this year's burst of success may lead to negative PR if they take a step or two back in the next couple of years.
Stewart and Escobar will almost certainly be gone after this year, as will Lidle. (Unless Lidle improves, he could wind up back in Toronto as an NRI.) This will leave the Jays with only one serviceable starting pitcher, and with Arnold, McGowan, and Bush not quite ready.
And I don't see the bullpen improving much - there isn't any help on the way in AAA. (Jason Kershner and Brian Bowles are the best Syracuse has.) This isn't J.P.'s fault (except for trading Quantrill) - good pitchers are hard to find, especially good, cheap pitchers.
By 2005 or 2006, the prospects currently kicking butt in New Haven will be ready to go in The Show. But will the fan base have regressed again by that point? And will the kids be able to make up for the (probable) loss of Delgado, who will no doubt be plying his trade in the Bronx or in Fenway?
Stewart and Escobar will almost certainly be gone after this year, as will Lidle. (Unless Lidle improves, he could wind up back in Toronto as an NRI.) This will leave the Jays with only one serviceable starting pitcher, and with Arnold, McGowan, and Bush not quite ready.
And I don't see the bullpen improving much - there isn't any help on the way in AAA. (Jason Kershner and Brian Bowles are the best Syracuse has.) This isn't J.P.'s fault (except for trading Quantrill) - good pitchers are hard to find, especially good, cheap pitchers.
By 2005 or 2006, the prospects currently kicking butt in New Haven will be ready to go in The Show. But will the fan base have regressed again by that point? And will the kids be able to make up for the (probable) loss of Delgado, who will no doubt be plying his trade in the Bronx or in Fenway?
C'mon Dave,
Delgado in pinstripes? He won't sign with them if he's forced to share first with Giambi. And I don't think Theo is going to shell out big bucks for another bat when clearly their problem is pitching. I think a more likely destination would be L.A. so he can hang out with his close buddy Shawn Green.
Delgado in pinstripes? He won't sign with them if he's forced to share first with Giambi. And I don't think Theo is going to shell out big bucks for another bat when clearly their problem is pitching. I think a more likely destination would be L.A. so he can hang out with his close buddy Shawn Green.
From the "Keeping up with BB Authors" department...
Robert Dudek's latest AL East bi-weekly review is up here. A good read as always.
(I haven't been closely following Primer lately and I figured I might not be the only one, hence the link.)
Robert Dudek's latest AL East bi-weekly review is up here. A good read as always.
(I haven't been closely following Primer lately and I figured I might not be the only one, hence the link.)
The Jays are a team that can more than hold their own in terms of contending right now and in the coming couple of years. Do we as hardcore supporters of the club really want to think of ourselves as something like the Edmonton Oilers? We develop players then are willingly resigned to letting them run off to greener pastures. Maybe the better example is the Expos. How many times could they have won the championship but for dollars.
Is this a big league team or not? Everyone knows they have always been a big league team until the past few seasons. In spite of Ash's shortcomings in terms of some contracts, at least he tried. Bold if not silly decisions to sign real ballplayers like Dalgado. 3 mil for Quantril. Wrong but he had his reasons.
It is a new regime and we must give them credit where it's due. But also the regime must be able to withstand critism as well.
Dave's right, it's the fans that matter. Thats why it's sports. If it is run strictly on business lines then they're going to loose the casual fan who buys the jersey and six tickets a year. Ash tried to appease that. His mistake was that he couldn't field a team that would at least challenge the big boys in the league.
It's not good enough for us--the fans-- to hear that we have only lost 5 million this year. Or the team is in the black for 5 million. We want to see the ballclub play and play to win. This team will only make money again when the Skydome is 75% full for 81 games a year.
Edmonton Oilers make it cuz it's a hockey town. Toronto's a hockey town too. To drop the level of expections to meet current revenue expectations is a very poor marketing move. Unless the intention is to simply hang on in perpetuity.
None of the above is intended to trash a sound five-year plan. Heck Mao woulda shot the apparatchiks for less. But there has to be a belief and a light which us normal fanatics can see. We won't buy inactivity. We will have hard questions when some of our talent is sent packing for less than even odds of return. And it's been a long time since this team had a chance and see it widdled away is a bummer.
Loyalty is earned, not to be expected; I think.
Is this a big league team or not? Everyone knows they have always been a big league team until the past few seasons. In spite of Ash's shortcomings in terms of some contracts, at least he tried. Bold if not silly decisions to sign real ballplayers like Dalgado. 3 mil for Quantril. Wrong but he had his reasons.
It is a new regime and we must give them credit where it's due. But also the regime must be able to withstand critism as well.
Dave's right, it's the fans that matter. Thats why it's sports. If it is run strictly on business lines then they're going to loose the casual fan who buys the jersey and six tickets a year. Ash tried to appease that. His mistake was that he couldn't field a team that would at least challenge the big boys in the league.
It's not good enough for us--the fans-- to hear that we have only lost 5 million this year. Or the team is in the black for 5 million. We want to see the ballclub play and play to win. This team will only make money again when the Skydome is 75% full for 81 games a year.
Edmonton Oilers make it cuz it's a hockey town. Toronto's a hockey town too. To drop the level of expections to meet current revenue expectations is a very poor marketing move. Unless the intention is to simply hang on in perpetuity.
None of the above is intended to trash a sound five-year plan. Heck Mao woulda shot the apparatchiks for less. But there has to be a belief and a light which us normal fanatics can see. We won't buy inactivity. We will have hard questions when some of our talent is sent packing for less than even odds of return. And it's been a long time since this team had a chance and see it widdled away is a bummer.
Loyalty is earned, not to be expected; I think.
Hey Guys this my first post on battersbox , I thank D.S and Matt for telling me about this great site !
I have been lurking for about a month and I am very impressed with quality of the stories and of the knowledgeable posters . I have been a Blue Jay Fan since I skipped school to go to Toronto first game against the white sox at old exhibition stadium.
Baseball is such a great game to watch and so heart breaking like tonight ! I would dearly love to see the Jays make the playoffs , but alas I think our hearts will be broken by our non-existent pen. Tom Henke , Duane Ward , Mark Eichhorn etc... please come out of retirement and save our bleeding blue jays hearts !
Well , the future looks bright down on the farm but I think we were spoiled after have 2 back to back World Series wins. Imagine the poor sods that are Red Sox fans and have been waiting since 1918 for a World Series Win. Now that is heartbreaking thought !
I look forward to reading your stories and Comments ! Go Jays ! Maybe J.P can pull a rabbit or pitcher out of his hat without trading away the future.
I have been lurking for about a month and I am very impressed with quality of the stories and of the knowledgeable posters . I have been a Blue Jay Fan since I skipped school to go to Toronto first game against the white sox at old exhibition stadium.
Baseball is such a great game to watch and so heart breaking like tonight ! I would dearly love to see the Jays make the playoffs , but alas I think our hearts will be broken by our non-existent pen. Tom Henke , Duane Ward , Mark Eichhorn etc... please come out of retirement and save our bleeding blue jays hearts !
Well , the future looks bright down on the farm but I think we were spoiled after have 2 back to back World Series wins. Imagine the poor sods that are Red Sox fans and have been waiting since 1918 for a World Series Win. Now that is heartbreaking thought !
I look forward to reading your stories and Comments ! Go Jays ! Maybe J.P can pull a rabbit or pitcher out of his hat without trading away the future.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/04/SP249106.DTL
All those not named Keith Law hoping to latch on to a major-league teams: have a last name of "Alderson." Click my name for more ...
All those not named Keith Law hoping to latch on to a major-league teams: have a last name of "Alderson." Click my name for more ...
Doesn't take much to set off you BJ fans, does it? A couple games blown to our lousy Os and you're ready to jump off a bridge. You could learn some perspective by rooting for the orange-and-black for a while.
Hang in there Jays! You're needed in the battle against the Evil Yankee Empire!!
And if the Jays need a starter and a reliever ... the Os are selling.
Hang in there Jays! You're needed in the battle against the Evil Yankee Empire!!
And if the Jays need a starter and a reliever ... the Os are selling.
Panic? a sinking ship? Turmoil? Trouble in paradise?
Enough about the National Post, back to the Jays.
Enough about the National Post, back to the Jays.
Luke Prokopec...
Blew out is labrum again, as most may have heard, and apparently he won't be blowing kisses to the Blue Jays medical staff anytime soon:
"I am much more comfortable with this (Cincinnati's) medical staff than I was with Toronto's," Prokopec said. "This will be 100 times better."
Gee, Oh boy
Blew out is labrum again, as most may have heard, and apparently he won't be blowing kisses to the Blue Jays medical staff anytime soon:
"I am much more comfortable with this (Cincinnati's) medical staff than I was with Toronto's," Prokopec said. "This will be 100 times better."
Gee, Oh boy
Quantrill, minus the salary, is exactly the kind of bullpen guy I'm talking about. He doesn't even need to be at his level (though the better the player, well, the better it is of course). Someone who cna pitch an inning if you need it or three if you need it. Not spectacular but can bridge the gap. If Tanyon Sturtze could pitch he'd be perfect because he cad basically give you any number of innings in a single outing.
Toronto is only 3.5 games out of the wild card spot and people are talking about giving up? On any given day any team has the ability to beat any other team. Last night a team scored eight runs with two out in the eighth. I don't care who's pitching, that's hard to accomplish. Baltimore had some luck on their side and they took advantage of it. This kind of thing happens to every team in the league. I'm not saying the bullpen couldn't use improvement- heck, there isn't a team in the AL east that couldn't use some help- I just feel that there is no reason to think that there is really any difference whether it was the Yankees or the Devil Rays who beat you on July 4th. The team is 47-40 and has as good of a chance as any to improve their team enough to make the playoffs.
Not sure anyone on this thread is talking about giving up. People are just saying that the team needs a couple parts.
I started by saying if they moved Stewart now, I thought their lineup would be better off for this year and they could pick up a pitcher or two that can play now and still contribute in a few years. Not trade Stewart and give up. I like the suggestion by someone in Da Box that they could get Aaron Harang for Stewart. That would be excellent. He has proven this year that he can contribute now (bye bye Doug Davis) and he is still young and has some room to improve.
Snellville, who knows enough about baseball to be teaching the rest of us a lesson in the Batter's Box Fantasy league, is exactly right. This season was never supposed to be about making the playoffs for Toronto; the current standings should be cause for celebration, not despair. Dodger fans, expecting a contender for their $100 million, have a legitimate reason to be upset.
Whoever posted as "Must be nice": instead of whining anonymously about nepotism, try interning with a big league team for several summers, then graduate from college and see if you don't get a job offer. It worked for Brian Cashman and Theo Epstein, neither of whom had relatives in the business.
Lefty, I doubt I'm the only one in the ZLC who is tired of your sloppy writing and even sloppier thinking, but the others are too kind to speak up. Blaming J.P. for "allowing" your expectations to rise is a classic example of inane babbling. You're entitled to your opinions -- however wrong -- but your constant use of "we" and "us" is really annoying. You certainly don't speak for me, or for the team. Maybe you should start a Brewers blog and sing the praises of Gord Ash to the equally misguided.
Whoever posted as "Must be nice": instead of whining anonymously about nepotism, try interning with a big league team for several summers, then graduate from college and see if you don't get a job offer. It worked for Brian Cashman and Theo Epstein, neither of whom had relatives in the business.
Lefty, I doubt I'm the only one in the ZLC who is tired of your sloppy writing and even sloppier thinking, but the others are too kind to speak up. Blaming J.P. for "allowing" your expectations to rise is a classic example of inane babbling. You're entitled to your opinions -- however wrong -- but your constant use of "we" and "us" is really annoying. You certainly don't speak for me, or for the team. Maybe you should start a Brewers blog and sing the praises of Gord Ash to the equally misguided.
Coach - I think your point about this being a so-far positive season is right. I'm somewhat of a pessimist, and I believe that we'll soon be looking to move some bodies, but it doesn't mean that I'm not happy with theseason. My frustration is with this latest spell, and only because it's tough enough to contend against the big spenders without going into a tailspin.
J.P. has done a great job, Escobar looks like a viable second or third starter, and we've got a crop of good, young hitters. What's not to like?
Any word on why the Jays weren't interested in Leskanic? He's been great for the Brewers for the past 2 1/2 years.
J.P. has done a great job, Escobar looks like a viable second or third starter, and we've got a crop of good, young hitters. What's not to like?
Any word on why the Jays weren't interested in Leskanic? He's been great for the Brewers for the past 2 1/2 years.
In my post on this thread, I was making one pessimistic assumption: that the Jays will follow the Full Oakland Model, and never re-sign any of their potential free agents.
There's some sound reasoning behind this: there's no point in tying up large sums of money on players who are beyond their peak years (see "Mondesi, Raul" for an example of this). But the "dump 'em all" approach only works if the talent coming up the pike is better than the talent being let go.
I think of Stewart, Lidle and even Escobar as replaceable commodities. But Halladay and Delgado pose a more difficult problem: they are truly great players, which are hard to find. When they become free agents, do you: (a) overpay for their peak or even past-peak years, and run the risk of throwing money down the drain, or (b) hope that your scouting and development staff can churn out three more Delgados and Halladays to replace them?
I don't know the answer to this question - presumably, that's why J.P. makes the big bucks :-).
The one bit of good news: the Jays' ownership have stated - and I believe them - that they will be willing to acquire a player or two to take them over the top when the time comes. (Not sure that this year is the time, though.)
There's some sound reasoning behind this: there's no point in tying up large sums of money on players who are beyond their peak years (see "Mondesi, Raul" for an example of this). But the "dump 'em all" approach only works if the talent coming up the pike is better than the talent being let go.
I think of Stewart, Lidle and even Escobar as replaceable commodities. But Halladay and Delgado pose a more difficult problem: they are truly great players, which are hard to find. When they become free agents, do you: (a) overpay for their peak or even past-peak years, and run the risk of throwing money down the drain, or (b) hope that your scouting and development staff can churn out three more Delgados and Halladays to replace them?
I don't know the answer to this question - presumably, that's why J.P. makes the big bucks :-).
The one bit of good news: the Jays' ownership have stated - and I believe them - that they will be willing to acquire a player or two to take them over the top when the time comes. (Not sure that this year is the time, though.)
Supposedly, JP was going after Ben Sheets but was turned down. I think Sheets is the type of player that JP is interested in acquriring, young guys who will fit into the core group of players, and not rentals. I wonder what he was offering?
Dave, I was also wondering the same thing about Delgado. Can they afford at this point to let his bat leave? Phelps might be able to put up decent numbers, but this team's offence revolves around Delgado. Unlike Oakland, the Jays don't have a big three in the rotation to rely on.
Dave, I was also wondering the same thing about Delgado. Can they afford at this point to let his bat leave? Phelps might be able to put up decent numbers, but this team's offence revolves around Delgado. Unlike Oakland, the Jays don't have a big three in the rotation to rely on.
http://economics.about.com
Any word on why the Jays weren't interested in Leskanic? He's been great for the Brewers for the past 2 1/2 years.
He hasn't been really. He missed the entire year last year due to injuries and he's still a big injury risk. Why give up a couple of prospects for a guy who might not be with the team next week?
Mike
Any word on why the Jays weren't interested in Leskanic? He's been great for the Brewers for the past 2 1/2 years.
He hasn't been really. He missed the entire year last year due to injuries and he's still a big injury risk. Why give up a couple of prospects for a guy who might not be with the team next week?
Mike
Mike - Sorry, I was looking at 2001, not '02. I guess a lot would have depended on the asking price.
Coach: Your last statment sounds like the owner of the ball telling the kids im the block who you want to play with. I happened to be very much in the same page as lefty, craigs and many others, that:
* Like very much what JP has done
* Find that although there is a high success with the hitting ranks there is much to be done with pitching
My personal opinion is that JP knows more about batters than pitchers, that Toronto had 2/3 their hitters in place and only 1/3 of the pitching staff, he filled that 1/3 with very good hitters at a bargain price ( Hinske, Cat, Myers, Wilson ) but the two thirds of pitching has been a mess ( Liddle is fine, so Walker and Cliff )few good and many, many others ( anybody has the full list? )that have failed: Luke, Sturtze, Miller, Creek, Tam and like a dozen AAAA and AAA guys. Everybody knows it is much more difficult to find and get good pitching but the results are not spectacular.
For me coaching is a concern and I know very well this point of view is impopular here.
And in particular pitching management is yielding both a high rate of lessions and poor performances...
* Like very much what JP has done
* Find that although there is a high success with the hitting ranks there is much to be done with pitching
My personal opinion is that JP knows more about batters than pitchers, that Toronto had 2/3 their hitters in place and only 1/3 of the pitching staff, he filled that 1/3 with very good hitters at a bargain price ( Hinske, Cat, Myers, Wilson ) but the two thirds of pitching has been a mess ( Liddle is fine, so Walker and Cliff )few good and many, many others ( anybody has the full list? )that have failed: Luke, Sturtze, Miller, Creek, Tam and like a dozen AAAA and AAA guys. Everybody knows it is much more difficult to find and get good pitching but the results are not spectacular.
For me coaching is a concern and I know very well this point of view is impopular here.
And in particular pitching management is yielding both a high rate of lessions and poor performances...
There was little luck involved in last night's loss- the O's hit every ball hard in the 8th. I guess it was my fault, in some karmic way, for having talked so much smack to the drunk O's fans behind me after they harassed me for cheering at Hinske's slam.
I've haven't been paying as much attention here as I usually do, so forgive me if this has been talked to death- what's up with Tosca's inability to use his bench? Last night, 9th inning, runner on 1B-
Bordick hits for himself. Howie Clark, Josh Pehlps, Greg Myers on the bench. Bordick has had 104 AB against RHP, posted a .461 OPS. Tosca was saving Myers to hit for Wood, but Wood's got a .731 OPS against RHP. Clark has, in 41 AB, a .955 OPS against righties, Phelps is at .830.
I know that would've limited options in the field, but its the f*cking 9th inning. If they go up by a run or tie it, they can bring Cat onto the field to play 2B and stick Clark at SS. It would cost them the DH, but who cares at that point. Carlos just outdid himself with this one- the game was over, but he didn't give his team its best chance for a miracle. Sloppy.
I've haven't been paying as much attention here as I usually do, so forgive me if this has been talked to death- what's up with Tosca's inability to use his bench? Last night, 9th inning, runner on 1B-
Bordick hits for himself. Howie Clark, Josh Pehlps, Greg Myers on the bench. Bordick has had 104 AB against RHP, posted a .461 OPS. Tosca was saving Myers to hit for Wood, but Wood's got a .731 OPS against RHP. Clark has, in 41 AB, a .955 OPS against righties, Phelps is at .830.
I know that would've limited options in the field, but its the f*cking 9th inning. If they go up by a run or tie it, they can bring Cat onto the field to play 2B and stick Clark at SS. It would cost them the DH, but who cares at that point. Carlos just outdid himself with this one- the game was over, but he didn't give his team its best chance for a miracle. Sloppy.
DS, thanks for the link. Milwaukee, with Ash advising Melvin about the Toronto system, would be asking for a lot of talent for Sheets. I'd guess Rios or Gross plus McGowan, if not more. Bob Elliott remains loyal to Gordo and the ex-scouts, so I take anything he says about the present front office with several grains of salt, and it's the time of year when many trade "whispers" originate in conversations between reporters.
The only way Delgado stays in Toronto for 2005 and beyond is if he puts other things ahead of security. I think it will be a very similar scenario to Jim Thome's last winter. The Jays will make a very reasonable offer, but he'll get an extra year (or two) and more total dollars from one of the rich clubs. About this time next year, there will be considerable chatter about Carlos waiving his no-trade clause to go to L.A., but his advisors, knowing it might be his last chance at a mega-deal, may prefer to wait for the potential bonanza of free agency.
Delgado's production can be "replaced" by the simultaneous maturity of Phelps, Hinske and Wells, who will all be in their prime by 2005, plus a new DH/1B. If they can afford to keep only one of their superstars, the Jays' resources are better spent locking up Halladay to an extension. This assumes Doc wants to stay, when he could open the vault almost anywhere once his contract expires.
The only way Delgado stays in Toronto for 2005 and beyond is if he puts other things ahead of security. I think it will be a very similar scenario to Jim Thome's last winter. The Jays will make a very reasonable offer, but he'll get an extra year (or two) and more total dollars from one of the rich clubs. About this time next year, there will be considerable chatter about Carlos waiving his no-trade clause to go to L.A., but his advisors, knowing it might be his last chance at a mega-deal, may prefer to wait for the potential bonanza of free agency.
Delgado's production can be "replaced" by the simultaneous maturity of Phelps, Hinske and Wells, who will all be in their prime by 2005, plus a new DH/1B. If they can afford to keep only one of their superstars, the Jays' resources are better spent locking up Halladay to an extension. This assumes Doc wants to stay, when he could open the vault almost anywhere once his contract expires.
What the Brews settled for Leskanik is like Towers and Sequea in our system, we got them for free during th offseason. Machado is even less developed than Sequea, but yes the asking price could be very high.
with respect to Sheets for sure a couple of blue chips were involved...
with respect to Sheets for sure a couple of blue chips were involved...
Everybody knows it is much more difficult to find and get good pitching
Jabonoso, I couldn't agree more. That's why J.P. traded F-Lop for Arnold, and drafted so many promising 21-23 year old arms. The clubs that waste millions on the likes of Omar Daal and Chan Ho Park will never win. Ricciardi's cut $30 million from the bloated Ash payroll, while improving every aspect of the team. He's created one of the best-hitting lineups in baseball on a shoestring, except for the $18 million 1B he inherited, and is well on the way to "growing" a pitching staff from within. It is impossible to do that overnight, and in just a season and a half of a three year plan he's close to pulling off a miracle, but that's still not good enough for some people.
Jabonoso, I couldn't agree more. That's why J.P. traded F-Lop for Arnold, and drafted so many promising 21-23 year old arms. The clubs that waste millions on the likes of Omar Daal and Chan Ho Park will never win. Ricciardi's cut $30 million from the bloated Ash payroll, while improving every aspect of the team. He's created one of the best-hitting lineups in baseball on a shoestring, except for the $18 million 1B he inherited, and is well on the way to "growing" a pitching staff from within. It is impossible to do that overnight, and in just a season and a half of a three year plan he's close to pulling off a miracle, but that's still not good enough for some people.
If only for avoiding obscene contracts with the Hamilton's and Hanson's of old, I should applaud and be happy, but still lots to be achieved and hopefully put together to win.
By the way, I am not that optimistic about hitting gold with our pitching prospects ( ala A's ), but I sure hope for a few championship runs in the near future...
By the way, I am not that optimistic about hitting gold with our pitching prospects ( ala A's ), but I sure hope for a few championship runs in the near future...
You give market value money to great pitchers, hitters are easy to find.
Lurch;
Hitters are easier to find than pitchers, I'll grant you. In the Jays' situation, Halladay is a more important target than Delgado. That said, I can't believe that hitters like Delgado are 'easy' to find. Were it possible to sign Delgado for the next few years at a rate fair to him, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Hitters are easier to find than pitchers, I'll grant you. In the Jays' situation, Halladay is a more important target than Delgado. That said, I can't believe that hitters like Delgado are 'easy' to find. Were it possible to sign Delgado for the next few years at a rate fair to him, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Coach, that was me who posted the Alderson link, partly as a diversion to the spiral of negativity and frustration surrounding the Jays' recent play. I was not whining about nepotism at all -- though I can see how that conclusion could be reached -- and it was not meant at all as a slight to Alderson, who is obviously qualified based on his experience and not his family name. He deserves the job, and, speaking as an A's fan, I hope he immediately gets to work convincing Billy Beane to get an OF who can hit.
That said, it can't hurt being Sandy Alderson's son!
That said, it can't hurt being Sandy Alderson's son!
With Lidle gone, or taking a pay cut, Stewart likely gone, Hinske and Wells signed for reasonable prices, and AAA talent ready to be called up how much would be free to pay Delgado? Would he show some graciousness to the team that groomed him and is tyring to build a contender around and re-up for 10-12 million?
McGriff-Olerud-Delgado-Phelps
I'd like to keep him too, but if it comes down to 10 million on him, or 10 million on a pitcher like Halladay...
I'd like to keep him too, but if it comes down to 10 million on him, or 10 million on a pitcher like Halladay...