The last time Roy Halladay faced the Tigers, he spun a closing day masterpiece -- allowing just two hits (and no walks) in eight IP, for a 1-0 win, his 19th of the 2002 season. Doc is 6-1, 1.97 in seven starts against Detroit, but even he needs a little support, so let's hope the slumbering Toronto bats wake up tonight against Adam Bernero. Johnson's in RF, Cat's at DH, Phelps keeps waiting for that Stewart trade.
It was also the last game Ernie Harwell did. I'm confident Doc can hold them down; 2 runs is all we need.
Funk, slump, whatever -- it's over. 4-0 on a 2-run blast by Wells, and Delgado has also gone deep.
Call it classic hubris if you must, but Elvis has a better chance of coming back than the Tigers tonight.
Somewhere in my junk drawer back in Mississauga, I think I still might have my CFTR-680 Bob Costas mask from Game 3 of the '89 ALCS.
Somewhere in my junk drawer back in Mississauga, I think I still might have my CFTR-680 Bob Costas mask from Game 3 of the '89 ALCS.
Everybody's contributing -- Reed has two bunt singles, and Hinske just hit a sharp single up the middle. Bernero's done -- too bad. Steve Sparks' first hitter, Woodward, cashed in the fifth run with a sac fly.
Well, here I go thinkng again. I know, I know what your saying. Whats going to spew forth this time. Shannon hitting in the three hole and moving Wells to five? No no.
I'm thinking our question as to whether Jays are buyers or sellers--if it hasn't yet to be decided--is starting to become clear.
The Jays are starting to fall back now. Over the past week we have seen a number of deals being made. Actually the deals started with the Bosx Kim deal. The below is copied from rotoworld. They are the players the Brewers recieved for a very decent reliever and cash.
I'm thinking its back to the five year plan for the Jays on the basis of the teams inactivity. Hope I'm wrong but if not its to bad.
Basically the Royals get a cheap reliever for a surplus prospect and a scrub.
Alomar went for a song as well, haven't really looked at the Everett deal but suspect the Rangers are paying most of his deal too. This seems to be the trend. If the team receiving the player takes on his salary then all you need to do is give up a bag of balls and a AAAA player. Sometimes both. In this case the Brewers are on the hook for a chunk of salary so they get the propect Macado.
In this environment I think the Jays can easliy get better this season but they can't wait until the trade deadline or they will be to far out with to few games to make it up. The dynamics of the deadline deal are different this year and probably was initiated by the Expos in the Bartolo deal. Done well before the deadline.
ROTOWORLD
KanAlejandro Machado - 2B - Milwaukee Brewers Jul 2
Brewers acquired infielder Alejandro Machado and RHP Wes Obermueller from the Royals for RHP Curtis Leskanic and cash.
Machado is a decent second base prospect, but the Royals decided he was expedable because of Ruben Gotay's presence. The 21-year-old was batting .287 with a .368 OBP and 20 SB for Double-A Wichita. Machado doesn't have a lot of upside, but he could be a lesser Eric Young. The Brewers assigned him to Double-A and figure to keep him there for the rest of the season.
Wes Obermueller - S - Milwaukee Brewers Jul 2
RHP Wes Obermueller was traded from Kansas City to Milwaukee in a three-player deal.
The 26-year-old Obermueller made his major league debut last year, posting an 11.74 ERA in two starts for Kansas City. He was 10-5 with a 4.40 ERA, 108 H and 62/42 K/BB in 106 1/3 IP for Triple-A Omaha. His stuff is subpar for a right-hander, so although he could see some time in the Milwaukee rotation this season, he's not a good bet for long-term success. The Brewers have assigned him to Triple-A for now.
I'm thinking our question as to whether Jays are buyers or sellers--if it hasn't yet to be decided--is starting to become clear.
The Jays are starting to fall back now. Over the past week we have seen a number of deals being made. Actually the deals started with the Bosx Kim deal. The below is copied from rotoworld. They are the players the Brewers recieved for a very decent reliever and cash.
I'm thinking its back to the five year plan for the Jays on the basis of the teams inactivity. Hope I'm wrong but if not its to bad.
Basically the Royals get a cheap reliever for a surplus prospect and a scrub.
Alomar went for a song as well, haven't really looked at the Everett deal but suspect the Rangers are paying most of his deal too. This seems to be the trend. If the team receiving the player takes on his salary then all you need to do is give up a bag of balls and a AAAA player. Sometimes both. In this case the Brewers are on the hook for a chunk of salary so they get the propect Macado.
In this environment I think the Jays can easliy get better this season but they can't wait until the trade deadline or they will be to far out with to few games to make it up. The dynamics of the deadline deal are different this year and probably was initiated by the Expos in the Bartolo deal. Done well before the deadline.
ROTOWORLD
KanAlejandro Machado - 2B - Milwaukee Brewers Jul 2
Brewers acquired infielder Alejandro Machado and RHP Wes Obermueller from the Royals for RHP Curtis Leskanic and cash.
Machado is a decent second base prospect, but the Royals decided he was expedable because of Ruben Gotay's presence. The 21-year-old was batting .287 with a .368 OBP and 20 SB for Double-A Wichita. Machado doesn't have a lot of upside, but he could be a lesser Eric Young. The Brewers assigned him to Double-A and figure to keep him there for the rest of the season.
Wes Obermueller - S - Milwaukee Brewers Jul 2
RHP Wes Obermueller was traded from Kansas City to Milwaukee in a three-player deal.
The 26-year-old Obermueller made his major league debut last year, posting an 11.74 ERA in two starts for Kansas City. He was 10-5 with a 4.40 ERA, 108 H and 62/42 K/BB in 106 1/3 IP for Triple-A Omaha. His stuff is subpar for a right-hander, so although he could see some time in the Milwaukee rotation this season, he's not a good bet for long-term success. The Brewers have assigned him to Triple-A for now.
Just 78 pitches by Halladay tonight. Maybe they will bring him back on 3-days rest Sunday (rather than 5-days rest vs. Boston on Tuesday). That would set him up better for the All-Star Game. But the Red Sox would get a break by missing him (of course, it would also be a break for Halladay to avoid the Sox). What should the Jays' rotation be up to the break?
So because the jays have their first slump in...oh, 2 months, they're out of it?
Trade Stewart JP, he's taking playing time away from others.
Trade Stewart JP, he's taking playing time away from others.
Stephen, I'm sure they want Doc to pitch against Boston on the 8th and the Yankees on the 13th. Davis starts tomorrow (if it's not rained out) but will skip a turn after that. Lidle pitches on the 5th and 10th, Escobar on the 4th and 9th, Lurch on the 6th and 11th. That leaves the 12th for Davis, or whoever takes his place.
After the break, Doc could start the second game against the Red Sox and return on four days' rest to face the Yankees. It will be interesting to see whether Lidle or Escobar gets the call in the opener against Boston; Cory will be off his preferred five-day routine anyway, so it's tempting to start Kelvim and bring him back a day early against the Yanks.
How about Doc, going 0-for-April and still becoming the first 12-game winner in the majors?
After the break, Doc could start the second game against the Red Sox and return on four days' rest to face the Yankees. It will be interesting to see whether Lidle or Escobar gets the call in the opener against Boston; Cory will be off his preferred five-day routine anyway, so it's tempting to start Kelvim and bring him back a day early against the Yanks.
How about Doc, going 0-for-April and still becoming the first 12-game winner in the majors?
When a team hits as well top-to-bottom as the Jays, the "slumps" won't last long. The top four in the order went 7-for-16 tonight, with Johnson and Hinske contributing two hits each, so everyone should be loose and confident again going into Baltimore.
Out of it? If Boston holds off Tampa Bay, the Jays are 2 1/2 games back of the wild card, with both the Red Sox and Oakland to pass. That's a very difficult assignment for a team with three starters and a patchwork bullpen. The remarkable thing about this season is that Toronto seems so close to being "in it," but realistically, this is a 90-win team, third in the East. I don't think J.P. would shed too many tears if the Jays dropped a game or three farther back over the next couple of weeks, so the illusion of being a contender would be over, and he could deal from strength to build for the future.
Out of it? If Boston holds off Tampa Bay, the Jays are 2 1/2 games back of the wild card, with both the Red Sox and Oakland to pass. That's a very difficult assignment for a team with three starters and a patchwork bullpen. The remarkable thing about this season is that Toronto seems so close to being "in it," but realistically, this is a 90-win team, third in the East. I don't think J.P. would shed too many tears if the Jays dropped a game or three farther back over the next couple of weeks, so the illusion of being a contender would be over, and he could deal from strength to build for the future.
Nah Lurch, I didn't say the Jays are out of it and I didnt mention the Jays slump, but they are slipping back and we are at the halfway mark. We can't rely on the Yanks, Bosox and A's to rollover. As has been mentioned by every regular to the BB the pitchings the problem. The Jays either need to address this or not. JP gets to make that choice. All I'm doing is speculating that perhaps JP has made his mind up already.
Letting Leskanic go by to me is at least an indicator. Everyone one knew Leskanic was very surplus to the Brews needs. Everyone. Everyone knows the Jays need at least one quality reliever. Who knows if JP had any discussion with them. But certainly salary can't be used as an arguement cuz the Brewers are picking perhaps all of it up.
Leskanic if picked up would have inherited the closers role. Automatic.So we get Acevedo, et al. Actually it might be interesting to see how much salary the Jays have taken on with other teams scrap heap pitchers, Acevedo and Service incidently occupy two positions on roto team as injury replacements. So I have some faith in them to perform 1/2 decent.
But to ignore an opportunity to clearly improve the pen .... well I'm just scratching my head and wondering.
Letting Leskanic go by to me is at least an indicator. Everyone one knew Leskanic was very surplus to the Brews needs. Everyone. Everyone knows the Jays need at least one quality reliever. Who knows if JP had any discussion with them. But certainly salary can't be used as an arguement cuz the Brewers are picking perhaps all of it up.
Leskanic if picked up would have inherited the closers role. Automatic.So we get Acevedo, et al. Actually it might be interesting to see how much salary the Jays have taken on with other teams scrap heap pitchers, Acevedo and Service incidently occupy two positions on roto team as injury replacements. So I have some faith in them to perform 1/2 decent.
But to ignore an opportunity to clearly improve the pen .... well I'm just scratching my head and wondering.
That's a very difficult assignment for a team with three starters and a patchwork bullpen.
Do you mean the Red Sox or the Jays?
Obviously you can't rely on the A's and Bosox to collapse, but they're not thinking the Jays will either. I guess we have to wait until they actually play them.
Do you mean the Red Sox or the Jays?
Obviously you can't rely on the A's and Bosox to collapse, but they're not thinking the Jays will either. I guess we have to wait until they actually play them.
Everyone knows the Jays need at least one quality reliever...Leskanic if picked up would have inherited the closers role...But to ignore an opportunity to clearly improve the pen.
That's pretty extreme praise for CL, isn't it? The guy is ok but nothing special at all. He's a shade better than Scott Service if at all...they give up a similar amount of baserunners and home runs but Service strikes out more guys...but carries with him that extra baggage due to missing all of 2002 with injuries. Like with Acevedo, I don't think we can confuse has closed in the past with is a closer.
Leskanic was not, is not and never shall be the answer. Amen.
That's pretty extreme praise for CL, isn't it? The guy is ok but nothing special at all. He's a shade better than Scott Service if at all...they give up a similar amount of baserunners and home runs but Service strikes out more guys...but carries with him that extra baggage due to missing all of 2002 with injuries. Like with Acevedo, I don't think we can confuse has closed in the past with is a closer.
Leskanic was not, is not and never shall be the answer. Amen.
Oh, forgot about Stewart. I'm not sure that Read Johnson can keep this amazing display up all year. He certainly doesn't enjoy the pedigree to say that he can. I sure hope he does because he's electric right now. I'm thinking about Eric Byrnes here a little as well. Lightning in a bottle. But, theres always a but though, its all about sustaining performance. We will get to see if Johnson sustain this level of play and it will be particularly interesting to see when Stew's gone.
And heres the second but. I, and I'm sure many others do not really believe the Jays will get very much for him. Just look at the market so far. All indicators are that the Jays will have to keep his salary on the books to get anything of perhaps future value for him.
My view is take the draft picks, let Johnson and Josh sort themselves out and add a starter and a reliever is possible.
Here's my batting order,
Johnson rf
Cat dh/rf Against RHP, and lousey lefties
Stewart lf
Dalgado 1st
Wells cf
Myers/Wilson
Hinske 3rd
Hudson 2nd
Woody SS
Phelps shares bats with Johnson and Cat. He might even give Dalgado a couple days off. When Johnson is on the bench Hudson leads off Phelps can slots into the catchers spot ot drop the catcher back one spot.
This lineup not only allows Stewart to drive in runs, it allows him to use his developing power and opens up the speed game because of Stew's gimpy strings. Stewarts bat is being wasted. This guys Garret Anderson. Keep him the rest of the year if your not going to get anything for him. And watch this team challange hard.
And heres the second but. I, and I'm sure many others do not really believe the Jays will get very much for him. Just look at the market so far. All indicators are that the Jays will have to keep his salary on the books to get anything of perhaps future value for him.
My view is take the draft picks, let Johnson and Josh sort themselves out and add a starter and a reliever is possible.
Here's my batting order,
Johnson rf
Cat dh/rf Against RHP, and lousey lefties
Stewart lf
Dalgado 1st
Wells cf
Myers/Wilson
Hinske 3rd
Hudson 2nd
Woody SS
Phelps shares bats with Johnson and Cat. He might even give Dalgado a couple days off. When Johnson is on the bench Hudson leads off Phelps can slots into the catchers spot ot drop the catcher back one spot.
This lineup not only allows Stewart to drive in runs, it allows him to use his developing power and opens up the speed game because of Stew's gimpy strings. Stewarts bat is being wasted. This guys Garret Anderson. Keep him the rest of the year if your not going to get anything for him. And watch this team challange hard.
Lefty,
Toronto only gets the draft pick(s) if they offer Stewart arbitration. And since he's already making 6 million, there is no way they are going to do that. Stewart is as good as gone, regardless of whether the team is a buyer or seller.
Toronto only gets the draft pick(s) if they offer Stewart arbitration. And since he's already making 6 million, there is no way they are going to do that. Stewart is as good as gone, regardless of whether the team is a buyer or seller.
JP isn't rolling over at all.
Once we get through with Baltimore, we have 12 straight games with the Yankees and Red Sox. That's the testing ground. If we're still in it after that, the team has proven it can compete now.
If we're not, then fine, we trade Stewart (who, by the way, is really good and will be missed), maybe Lidle, maybe Escobar, and hunker down for 85 wins and a real shot in 2004-05.
It's win-win, really. But those 12 games are the test.
Once we get through with Baltimore, we have 12 straight games with the Yankees and Red Sox. That's the testing ground. If we're still in it after that, the team has proven it can compete now.
If we're not, then fine, we trade Stewart (who, by the way, is really good and will be missed), maybe Lidle, maybe Escobar, and hunker down for 85 wins and a real shot in 2004-05.
It's win-win, really. But those 12 games are the test.
The Jays are actually quite lucky the schedule makers give them the opportunity to test their mettle against the best in the division in late July as opposed to early August.
Toronto only gets the draft pick(s) if they offer Stewart arbitration. And since he's already making 6 million, there is no way they are going to do that. Stewart is as good as gone, regardless of whether the team is a buyer or seller.
Doough, I guess thats it then. Better take that bag of Dodger blue-balls quick and wave bye to one very talented ball player.
Doough, I guess thats it then. Better take that bag of Dodger blue-balls quick and wave bye to one very talented ball player.
Just saw this wire item:
"Blue Jays: Announced vice president Tim Wilken has resigned to explore other baseball opportunities."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/transactions
"Blue Jays: Announced vice president Tim Wilken has resigned to explore other baseball opportunities."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/transactions
I hear he has Felipe-Lopezish brain cramps from time to time but what would people think if JP claimed D'Angelo Jimenez? I mean, he's only 25 and now that he's been DFA, he'd be free. He walks at a pretty good clip and is growing into his power but doesn't have much of a glove. Doesn't that sound like a Blue Jay?
My guess is he's bound for Tampa or the tigers. He's actually a very good offensive player and his D should still develope. The brain cramps mentioned are actually probably from losing a year to a head injury while still Yankee property.
Jimenez was really treated unfairly by the Chi. Sox and was scape-goated for their horendous performance. During his tenure with the pale sox he was probably one of their most consistant players and that includes last season where he came round after he joined them.
I'm pulling for him and hope he ends up with Trammel or Lou who will shape him into a top flight ball player.
Yup, I hope he gets picked up and gets outta there and rubs Kenny's nose in it.
It is to bad shorts not his optimum position cuz he would be an offensive up-grade on Woody. He's not going to diplace O-Dog and well Hinske bullet proof.
Jimenez was really treated unfairly by the Chi. Sox and was scape-goated for their horendous performance. During his tenure with the pale sox he was probably one of their most consistant players and that includes last season where he came round after he joined them.
I'm pulling for him and hope he ends up with Trammel or Lou who will shape him into a top flight ball player.
Yup, I hope he gets picked up and gets outta there and rubs Kenny's nose in it.
It is to bad shorts not his optimum position cuz he would be an offensive up-grade on Woody. He's not going to diplace O-Dog and well Hinske bullet proof.
it allows him to use [Stewart's] his developing power
Lefty, you've mentioned Stewart's "developing" power on more than one occasion. What, specifically, are you referring to?
Here is a rundown of Stewart's OBP, SLG, 2B and HR over his career. 2003 stats are prorated to 2002's 577 at-bats.
1997, age 23, .368, .446, 13, 0
1998, age 24, .377, .417, 29, 12
1999, age 25, .371, .411, 28, 11
2000, age 26, .363, .518, 43, 21
2001, age 27, .371, .463, 44, 12
2002, age 28, .371, .442, 38, 10 (AL non-pitchers' SLG: .425)
2003, age 29, .363, .463, 49, 11
After his 2000 season, as you are doing now, I advocated moving Stewart into the 3-hole to leverage what I felt was the legitimate broadening of his offensive skills. His age 26 season was, sadly, an outlier, and he seems to have comfortably locked into being a 370/450 type of hitter.
I see no evidence of Stewart being in any kind of developmental phase. His age, his injury history and his track record all suggest that what we see now is likely as good is he's going to be from here on in.
Lefty, you've mentioned Stewart's "developing" power on more than one occasion. What, specifically, are you referring to?
Here is a rundown of Stewart's OBP, SLG, 2B and HR over his career. 2003 stats are prorated to 2002's 577 at-bats.
1997, age 23, .368, .446, 13, 0
1998, age 24, .377, .417, 29, 12
1999, age 25, .371, .411, 28, 11
2000, age 26, .363, .518, 43, 21
2001, age 27, .371, .463, 44, 12
2002, age 28, .371, .442, 38, 10 (AL non-pitchers' SLG: .425)
2003, age 29, .363, .463, 49, 11
After his 2000 season, as you are doing now, I advocated moving Stewart into the 3-hole to leverage what I felt was the legitimate broadening of his offensive skills. His age 26 season was, sadly, an outlier, and he seems to have comfortably locked into being a 370/450 type of hitter.
I see no evidence of Stewart being in any kind of developmental phase. His age, his injury history and his track record all suggest that what we see now is likely as good is he's going to be from here on in.
Stewart is a leadoff hitter - asking him to hit more homeruns is going to knock 25 points off his batting average. I think it is worthwhile to encourage him to be more selective - perhaps he can bump his walk rate up and put up OBPs in the .385 range.
I agree that Stewart seems to be best fitted to the number three hole. I don't think you ask him to change his game any, though. In the three hole, I believe, home runs are a bonus. With Delgado, Wells, and Frnakencatcher behind the three, you can treat it like the 1 and 2 and have them as on base guys. If he could put up a .385 OBP like Robert has suggested, he would be terrific in the three slot ahead of a masher like Delgado. That said, he's traditionally faltered outside of the leadoff spot. If he cna lose that mental block, it would be great. Unless the Jays are within one game of either the wild card or the division after this 12 game stretch, i think Stewart and Ldile should both go.
It is between the ages of 27 and 30 that everything comes into sync for good hitters. Garret Anderson had very similar power in his mid twenties and was always a great contact hitter. As your illuration points out Stew hit 21 during the 2000 season. So he can knock the ball.
He is the best pure hitter on the team, without doubt he would might lose a few points off the avg. for a while. But I suspect most of his avg. would be back once he got more comfortable with a slightly longer stroke.
I guess we'll get to see how Stewarts career progresses from afar.
Finally with Stewarts hammy's he is not a lead off hitter. At least he isn't anymore.
Espn player profiles mention many scouts feel many scouts feel Stewart is a number three hitter. He will not hit his twenty five out of the lead-off hole. I suspect the numbers can not reflect where he hits in the line-up.
Bernie Williams might be another comparison player to Stewart.
He is the best pure hitter on the team, without doubt he would might lose a few points off the avg. for a while. But I suspect most of his avg. would be back once he got more comfortable with a slightly longer stroke.
I guess we'll get to see how Stewarts career progresses from afar.
Finally with Stewarts hammy's he is not a lead off hitter. At least he isn't anymore.
Espn player profiles mention many scouts feel many scouts feel Stewart is a number three hitter. He will not hit his twenty five out of the lead-off hole. I suspect the numbers can not reflect where he hits in the line-up.
Bernie Williams might be another comparison player to Stewart.
As your illuration points out Stew hit 21 during the 2000 season. So he can knock the ball.
I think my illustration points out that he could knock the ball. Once. Several years ago.
He is the best pure hitter on the team.
I'll take the impure Delgado any day of the week! ;)
Finally with Stewarts hammy's he is not a lead off hitter. At least he isn't anymore.
Lefty, I disagree. Stewart's biggest skill is getting on base. He doesn't walk as much as you'd like, but he's pretty reliable for a .360 OBP. It's true he doesn't steal any more, but in the current offensive climate, that's not a huge loss. Frankly, I'd rather see speed at the bottom of the order anyway, where the single hitters live.
Bernie Williams might be another comparison player to Stewart.
Stewart is like a Bernie Williams Lite. Same type of skills, just not as good as Williams.
Stewart's best ever OPS (881 in 2000) is less than Williams' career OPS of 890. In his prime, Williams was good for an OPS in the 950-1000 range. Now that he's in decline at age 34, he figures to be "only" a 900 OPS type hitter, still better than Stewart ever was.
Williams is at around 850 this year, but I believe that he was playing through an injury that ultimately had him DL'd.
I think my illustration points out that he could knock the ball. Once. Several years ago.
He is the best pure hitter on the team.
I'll take the impure Delgado any day of the week! ;)
Finally with Stewarts hammy's he is not a lead off hitter. At least he isn't anymore.
Lefty, I disagree. Stewart's biggest skill is getting on base. He doesn't walk as much as you'd like, but he's pretty reliable for a .360 OBP. It's true he doesn't steal any more, but in the current offensive climate, that's not a huge loss. Frankly, I'd rather see speed at the bottom of the order anyway, where the single hitters live.
Bernie Williams might be another comparison player to Stewart.
Stewart is like a Bernie Williams Lite. Same type of skills, just not as good as Williams.
Stewart's best ever OPS (881 in 2000) is less than Williams' career OPS of 890. In his prime, Williams was good for an OPS in the 950-1000 range. Now that he's in decline at age 34, he figures to be "only" a 900 OPS type hitter, still better than Stewart ever was.
Williams is at around 850 this year, but I believe that he was playing through an injury that ultimately had him DL'd.
Oh my, well I feel thoroughly admonished with well researched arguements Chuck. Point taken.
But in the end I obviously still see a lot more in Stewart than you so we'll just have to disagree. I'm sure glad Carlos is having one of his career years because he makes a great comparison to score points on what has turned into an apples and oranges discussion.
Bernie Williams has had his whole career on a championship calibre team surrounded by winners. Stewart on the other hand has lived in death valley since the end of the great T.O. Glory years. Cripes he had A_GON hitting behind him most of his career. Might have some bearing. Bernie in his early years could swipe a bag and as that part of his game dropped off his power emerged. But for many years people expected more power from him and in that respect he was always just a bit of a disappointment.
Completely agree with you that Stewart is Bernie lite but they are the a similar type of ballplayer thrown out for the purpose of illustrative comparison. They give their teams similar qualities. My intention wasn't to say Stew's as good as Bernie nor to compare him to Carlos.
Likewise Bernie could never be confused with someone like Giambi or Tino Maritnez. They're a differnet breed.
I'll be back to spew forth some more old fashion theories for you to sharpen your pencil on the fine points.
But in the end I obviously still see a lot more in Stewart than you so we'll just have to disagree. I'm sure glad Carlos is having one of his career years because he makes a great comparison to score points on what has turned into an apples and oranges discussion.
Bernie Williams has had his whole career on a championship calibre team surrounded by winners. Stewart on the other hand has lived in death valley since the end of the great T.O. Glory years. Cripes he had A_GON hitting behind him most of his career. Might have some bearing. Bernie in his early years could swipe a bag and as that part of his game dropped off his power emerged. But for many years people expected more power from him and in that respect he was always just a bit of a disappointment.
Completely agree with you that Stewart is Bernie lite but they are the a similar type of ballplayer thrown out for the purpose of illustrative comparison. They give their teams similar qualities. My intention wasn't to say Stew's as good as Bernie nor to compare him to Carlos.
Likewise Bernie could never be confused with someone like Giambi or Tino Maritnez. They're a differnet breed.
I'll be back to spew forth some more old fashion theories for you to sharpen your pencil on the fine points.
[Of Bernie Williams...] But for many years people expected more power from him and in that respect he was always just a bit of a disappointment.
While I can't refute the notion that some might have been disappointed, anyone who played Strat-O-Matic in the 90's would not have been. Williams always brought a lot of skills to the table: high batting averages, high walks, good (not great) double and homerun power, excellent defense. His was always a highly coveted card.
In his prime, his only real weakness was his throwing arm. And when considering his offense, you have to remember that he was a CF, not a corner outfielder or a first baseman, where the expectations of offense are much higher.
Despite playing in the media spotlight for such a long time, Williams was, to my mind, still an underrated player. He often played second fiddle to Griffey, even in seasons when he was arguably better.
While I can't refute the notion that some might have been disappointed, anyone who played Strat-O-Matic in the 90's would not have been. Williams always brought a lot of skills to the table: high batting averages, high walks, good (not great) double and homerun power, excellent defense. His was always a highly coveted card.
In his prime, his only real weakness was his throwing arm. And when considering his offense, you have to remember that he was a CF, not a corner outfielder or a first baseman, where the expectations of offense are much higher.
Despite playing in the media spotlight for such a long time, Williams was, to my mind, still an underrated player. He often played second fiddle to Griffey, even in seasons when he was arguably better.
Likewise Bernie could never be confused with someone like Giambi or Tino Maritnez.
Forgot to mention this in my last post...
Interesting that you mention Giambi. From where I sit, as offensive players (and ignoring footspeed), Shannon Stewart is Bernie Williams Lite and Bernie Williams is Jason Giambi Lite. (Just talking results here, not how they look at bat or achieve those results.)
All hit for decent batting averages. Williams separates himself from Stewart with extra walks and homeruns. Giambi separates himself from Williams with extra walks and homeruns.
Roughly speaking, start with Stewart. Add 100-150 points of OPS and you get Williams. Add another 100-150 points of OPS and you get Giambi. In both cases, the extra 100-150 points of OPS is made up of OBP (walks) and SLG (homeruns).
Forgot to mention this in my last post...
Interesting that you mention Giambi. From where I sit, as offensive players (and ignoring footspeed), Shannon Stewart is Bernie Williams Lite and Bernie Williams is Jason Giambi Lite. (Just talking results here, not how they look at bat or achieve those results.)
All hit for decent batting averages. Williams separates himself from Stewart with extra walks and homeruns. Giambi separates himself from Williams with extra walks and homeruns.
Roughly speaking, start with Stewart. Add 100-150 points of OPS and you get Williams. Add another 100-150 points of OPS and you get Giambi. In both cases, the extra 100-150 points of OPS is made up of OBP (walks) and SLG (homeruns).
Chuck, I agree completely with your last analyses and would slot in the teams he has had the luxury to play on.
I played roto throughout the 90's, 12 team AL 4by4 and adjusted to 5by5 about five years ago. Still do and for an old fart I don't do to badly on draft day.
Most of the same bunch of guys are still in our league today. Everyone always had their favorites and Bernie was always near the top of everyones list. Still is.
Funny though Stewart is still high on quite a few our my pals lists too. Personally I have taken a pass on bidding for Stewart for about 4 years. Cuz he hits leadoff and thats just not where he should be used.
Anyways Chuck its been fun. I think I had at least one supporter on this thread so thats not bad for ole lefty who loves to swim upstream. Much more interesting than just a nod and a wink all the time.
You guys are really sharp and are willing to really do your statistical analyses. Not me I couldn't be naffed, not to the same extent of you fella's but I sure love BB and the Batters Box, so feel free to swing away at my Doug Davis like fastballs.
I played roto throughout the 90's, 12 team AL 4by4 and adjusted to 5by5 about five years ago. Still do and for an old fart I don't do to badly on draft day.
Most of the same bunch of guys are still in our league today. Everyone always had their favorites and Bernie was always near the top of everyones list. Still is.
Funny though Stewart is still high on quite a few our my pals lists too. Personally I have taken a pass on bidding for Stewart for about 4 years. Cuz he hits leadoff and thats just not where he should be used.
Anyways Chuck its been fun. I think I had at least one supporter on this thread so thats not bad for ole lefty who loves to swim upstream. Much more interesting than just a nod and a wink all the time.
You guys are really sharp and are willing to really do your statistical analyses. Not me I couldn't be naffed, not to the same extent of you fella's but I sure love BB and the Batters Box, so feel free to swing away at my Doug Davis like fastballs.
Stewart's low strikeouts and high amount of ground balls would cause a lot of double plays from the 3-hole.
Cuz he hits leadoff and thats just not where he should be used
I'm not sure I understand why this is important. The only effect having him leadoff v.s. 3-spot is that he has probably less RBI and more Runs. I could bring up the obligatory protection and batting order studies etc. but really I don't know why this is always mentioned as an issue. There isn't that much of a difference (especially in the AL) between 1st and 3rd spots. Unless of course you mean from a roto perspective, then I can see where the rate stats would be an issue.
I'm not sure I understand why this is important. The only effect having him leadoff v.s. 3-spot is that he has probably less RBI and more Runs. I could bring up the obligatory protection and batting order studies etc. but really I don't know why this is always mentioned as an issue. There isn't that much of a difference (especially in the AL) between 1st and 3rd spots. Unless of course you mean from a roto perspective, then I can see where the rate stats would be an issue.