Mike of Mike's Baseball Rants brought up the same point in one of his awesome Joe Morgan Chat Days a couple of weeks ago ("By the way, Clemens seems to have forgotten that he ever played for the Blue Jays let alone had two of his best years there."), and it lead to this exchange about Clemens v. Pedro.

Something else just occured to me... all this talk by Clemens as if he's already been selected for Cooperstown is more than a little presumptuous. Sure, he's got the numbers, but has he never heard of Pete Rose? Strange things can happen between now and then.

'Presumptuous' may well be Roger's middle name(witness putting a '300 wins' patch on a glove, etc.), but I think he'd know if he'd been gambling on baseball games. And short of his blister in the 1986 World Series turning out to have been faked to throw the Series to the Mets (part of a vast conspiracy including McNamara, Gedman, Stanley, Schiraldi and Buckner,) he's in. And everybody knows it. Unfortunately. I can't decide who my least favorite Yankee is, because Wells and Clemens keep coming up with new material.

Have the years 1997 and 1998 been completely erased from Clemens' memory?

Yes, but not for the reason you think, Dave. Roger was so blissfully happy during those years -- what with being closer to his family and all -- that he simply forgot he was "working," or pitching for the Blue Jays. All Rocket man can remember are the lazy picnics with his Khildren and his Kindred Spirit (his wife), the mild winters of Toronto, and long walks along the beach with his kanine kompanions.

Those shutouts and double-digit strikeout games? They were visions of future days with the real team of his choice, the New York Yankees, whose home stadium, as we all know, is very close to Roger's family, too.

It sure is easy to see why some people dislike this guy....

My $.02, which I already gave to Rob Neyer via email a long time ago: The era of free agency will probably change the way the HoF does business, and I think Clemens will be the motivation for eliminating the whole cap issue.

IOW, free agency results in more and more players moving to several different teams over the course of their careers, it will no longer make sense to distinguish one such team over the others in many cases. Clemens' case is the litmus test, so to speak. I believe that despite the history, players after Clemens will simply be inducted, rather than inducted AS one thing or another. Which makes more sense, anyway.

And if not Clemens, then Rickey. Or Robbie. Or Randy.

Someone (perhaps a Red Sox fan) once suggested that Clemens should go into the Hall of Fame with a giant dollar sign on his cap.

Didn't Clemens actually turn down a better offer from the Yankees to sign with Toronto?

Hijack, the below is from rotoworld. The Jays got their Arizona pitcher.

Scott Service - R - Toronto Blue Jays Jun 16

Blue Jays claimed RHP Scott Service off waivers from the Diamondbacks.
Service had an 18/2 K/BB ratio in 18 1/3 innings with the Diamondbacks, and that's probably why the Blue Jays wanted to give him an opportunity. Still, there's nothing else to like here. This move is probably going to turn out badly.

By the way, how do you do that squiggly thing to either highlite a previous quote or in a cut-n-paste insertion. Anyone? Cheers.

While I may not be able to defend Clemens' revisionist history -- whereby the years 1984-1998 were spent toiling unappreciated and unloved -- I think I can understand his motives.

Clemens clearly has a sense of his place in history, and like him or not, he is fully deserving of it. As many, including Rob Neyer, have recently argued, a strong argument can be made for Clemens being the greatest pitcher of the modern era.

And what better way to immortalize his memory than to have him side by side in the pantheon of Yankee greats, with Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle, etc. What better company to keep long after you're dead and gone?

Certainly he is being disingenuous about the sweet and cuddly Mr. Steinbrenner being the only person on planet earth who had faith that he wasn't washed up -- we in Ontario have a bone to pick on this matter -- so he'd be better served by taking his chances and just running his true agenda up the flagpole rather than insulting the masses with such obvious nonsense.

Dave, I think he turned down a smaller offer from the Yankees, which ticked me off because 1) Clemens had said he wanted to play for a contender, and the Yankees were coming off a World Series win, while the Blue Jays were still re-building; 2) he had said all along he wanted to be closer to his family in Texas.

I have many irrational reasons for liking certain players, but the few players I dislike -- Bonds, Clemens, Juan Gonzalez, Jeremy Giambi -- usually make it difficult for me to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Service.

I was just persuing his player cards at Baseball Prospectus.

Looks like he's slightly above-average. Good K rate, a shade high on the walks and homeruns.

Predicted VORP = 4.4

He was in the Oakland system a few years back, so JP presumably knows what he's getting.

http://economics.about.com


I was just persuing his player cards at Baseball Prospectus.

Looks like he's slightly above-average. Good K rate, a shade high on the walks and homeruns.

Predicted VORP = 4.4

This year he has an ARP of 2.7, which means he's performed better than every Jays reliever this year except Lopez. I haven't calculated his dERA, but it has to be pretty low given his K/BB rate.

Before Service joined the team, the second best reliever this year has been Tanyon Sturtze?!?

Mike

Scott Service is certainly well-travelled. His stops, in order: Philadelphia, Montreal, Chunichi (Japan), Cincinnati, Colorado, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Oakland, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Arizona, and now Toronto.

His numbers don't indicate why he's been unsuccessful: he strikes out lots of batters, and doesn't walk all that many. His H/IP ratio isn't that bad, either. Is there some reason why people don't like him?

http://economics.about.com
His numbers don't indicate why he's been unsuccessful: he strikes out lots of batters, and doesn't walk all that many. His H/IP ratio isn't that bad, either. Is there some reason why people don't like him?

His career HR/9 ratio of 1.17 is pretty high. Plus he's a righty.

Mike

What Clemens, in his delusional self-centeredness has forgotten, is that the Hall of Fame is not for the players. It is for the fans. The HoF is a historical insitution, and in order to uphold historical integrity, must make objective choices. Roger simply cannot make the decision objectively, which is why he has no say. Roger won 192 of his wins with the Red Sox. Hmm...seems like quite an overwhelming percentage to me. Regardless, 13 years in Boston, 2 in Toronto, 5 in NY. Simply looking at those numbers make it clear what the objective decision is for history's sake.

http://economics.about.com
What Clemens, in his delusional self-centeredness has forgotten, is that the Hall of Fame is not for the players. It is for the fans. The HoF is a historical insitution, and in order to uphold historical integrity, must make objective choices. Roger simply cannot make the decision objectively, which is why he has no say.

I have to disagree with you on this one.

Clemens clearly had a falling out with the Red Sox. Why make him remember those times if he doesn't want to.

The Hall of Fame does honor players. If someone had a banquet in my honor, I'd be pretty annoyed if the centerpiece was a picture of me with my ex-girlfriend.. even if I was with her longer than I've been with anyone else.

I think it's about time the Hall of Fame got rid of having caps on the plaques entirely.

Mike

fyi: In-context Jays stats for 2003 through Sunday's games (including newest Jay Scott Service and former Jay Roger Clemens).

In a sense, I agree with you, Mike M. But, the hall has to think about 50, or 100 years from now. And Roger Clemens, for the bulk of his career, was a Red Sox. He put up his numbers wearing a Boston uniform. And little kids 50 years from now, in a sense, should talk about Roger as a member of the Red Sox. If they do away with the hats, that's fine. If they don't Roger should be wearing Boston. The Hall is an honor for the players, but it exists for the fans of today, and moreso for the fans of the future. The player is honored by going into the HoF, but the Hall exists for the sake of the fans.

http://economics.about.com
In a sense, I agree with you, Mike M. But, the hall has to think about 50, or 100 years from now. And Roger Clemens, for the bulk of his career, was a Red Sox. He put up his numbers wearing a Boston uniform. And little kids 50 years from now, in a sense, should talk about Roger as a member of the Red Sox.

I see your point, but do you think in 50, 100 or 500 years from now that people are going to be talking about Dave Winfield as a Padre?

Mike

Still, there's nothing else to like here. This move is probably going to turn out badly.

You know a thread is bizarre when it combines a conversation about Roger Clemens with one about Scott Service.

Continuing with Lefty's hijack...

Service's peripherals for 2003 (18/2 K/BB) do look great. And he's only allowed 1 HR in 18 innings. Geez, why wouldn't you give a guy like that a chance?

Thanks to Lee Sinins' encyclopedia, here are Service's career numbers followed by the league average, in brackets.

ERA: 4.91 (4.49)
K/9: 8.99 (6.35)
BB/9: 4.08 (3.45)
HR: 47 (42)
H/9: 9.29 (9.34)

His peripherals suggest a guy who should have been at least league average, maybe better. Must a been some bad luck in there, or maybe he's just not a clutch pitcher ;).

Other factoids:
* He's 36.
* He did not pitch in the majors at all in 2001 and 2002.
* If memory serves, he and Tim Pugh flip-flopped between Cincinnati and KC (and their respective minor league teams) about a jillion times in the 90's.

Service also had a heckuva year in 1998, so you never know. Not a bad pickup, as far as freely-available relievers go.

Throwing in another hijack, CBS Sportsline has, totally incorrectly, but nevertheless really enjoyably, put the Jays at #4 in this week's Power Rankings:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/6433837

Jurgen, one could also make a strong case that Greg Maddux is also better than Clemens.

Jason--

Sure, the case could be made, although personally I think Clemens nudges Maddux. My point was more that I think it's premature to say Clemens is the best when Pedro is still pitching at a level very similar to what Clemens was doing by age 30 (I actually thought Pedro was doing slightly better, but those Win Share calculations show it's pretty close). The key for Pedro, as I said to Mike, is to avoid that Stieb-like collapse.

What hats will Service and Acevedo wear when they go to the HoF?
They have pitched for about 17 mlb teams between the 2 of them !

All of you guys out there who would love to talk bad about Roger don't have a clue. I had the pleasure of spending a couple of days around him and he couldn't have been a nicer guy. He hooked me up with with tickets signed memorabilia just for doing a favor for one of his friends. He also even got me in contact with Derek Jeter and Bernie Williams. I still keep in contact with him and I think you really can't judge him until you get to know him. So what if all of his kids names start with "K" and he wasn't to finish his career in NY which is arguably the greatest city in the world. Don't forget about the Roger Clemens foundation that both him and his great wife Debbie have personally donated over 10 million dollars to. All of you haters don't have a leg to stand on.

I'm what, his pay for doing nothing this off-season?

Can you add me to your mailing list?

Thanks!