Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - Game 64: No Excuses For Escobar

The Jays try to shake off last night's disappointment this afternoon, while the Reds will be fired up from their latest miraculous comeback. Cincinnati starter Jimmy Haynes isn't quite as bad as his 0-4, 9.42 suggests -- since returning from the DL May 27, he's got two no-decisions, allowing two runs in five innings at Atlanta, and holding the Yankees to three runs in six innings at the Smallpark. Still, you have to expect the Toronto bats to do some damage, as usual. Cat, Delgado and Myers have all had success against Haynes in the past.

Kelvim Escobar was superb through four innings in his last start, allowing a fluke infield single and no walks while striking out five. Then, in the fifth, he started shaking his right hand while pacing nervously around the mound between pitches, and (not being very patient with Kelvim) I thought, "oh, boy, here we go again." Sure enough, he coughed up the 2-run lead his mates had given him against Card's ace Matt Morris, and he was gone after six, taking the loss. What I didn't know is that Escobar's hand wasn't numb because of the (possibly psychosomatic) nerve problem that bothered him in his last stint in the rotation. After the game, he explained -- when batting in the top of the fifth, he got jammed fouling off a Morris fastball, and it really stung.

Like other Jays this season, notably Walker and Hinske, Kelvim didn't admit the extent of the pain and gamely, but foolishly, tried to pitch through it. Today against a potent Reds attack, he has little margin for error. How he handles Dunn, Casey and Griffey in the first inning could set the tone for the whole game. The Toronto bullpen is shaky and overworked, so the team is counting on Escobar to go seven innings, and he won't be on a pitch count. If he rises to the occasion and pitches anything like he did in those first four frames last week, our boys should return home 2-4 for the ludicrous NL road trip and a very respectable four games over .500 for the season, with winnable series on deck against the Pirates and the (probably Sosa-less) Cubbies. If the prospect of seeing Sammy twice caused you to already shell out $200 per head for the SkyDome sleepover next weekend, my sympathy.

Posted by Coach on Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 12:24 PM EDT.

Game 64: No Excuses For Escobar | 37 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Pistol - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 12:52 PM EDT (#100591) #

I was looking at the Jays pitching stats this morning and Escobar's actually been the 4th best pitcher on the team behind Lidle, Halladay, and Lopez (granted 4th best isn't exactly a huge compliment). His K, BB, and HR rate all indicate a much lower ERA than he has - so I think he's either been unlucky, or has had bad defense behind him. I expect a 'quality start' out of him today.

ludicrous NL road trip

Is this a strength of schedule issue?

_Lefty - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#100592) #

Anyone see the T.O Sun article today about Tosca saying that the Jays are going back to the "4" man rotation concept again? Says they're going to talk about it Monday. Seems a bit of psycology to me. Float it out as a trial balloon a week ago, gather up the concerns, deal with those. Step back, show Davis to the team again then plow forward.

Coach - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#100593) #

Pistol, my beef with interleague play begins with how unfair it can be to have (for example) Oakland playing the formidable Giants six times while Seattle's so-called "rivalry" home-and-home is with the San Diego Patsies. This cheapens the AL West race, and could theoretically cost the A's a playoff spot.

The only thing more ludicrous than tilting the balance of the schedule is forcing AL pitchers to hit. No matter how much BP they take for a couple of weeks to prepare, the fact remains that they are vulnerable to injury. Seeing live big-league pitching for just one or two games a year, even someone who was once a decent hitter no longer has the pitch-recognition skills or reflexes to get out of the way of an inside fastball, as both Escobar and Tim Wakefield will confirm. I'm not a proponent of the DH, and wish AL pitchers had to bat all the time, but this annual exercise in futility is dangerous as well as pointless.

_Lefty - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#100594) #

Kelvim Escobar - R - Toronto Blue Jays Jun 8

After Doug Davis' poor performance Saturday, the Blue Jays are considering going to a four-man rotation.
Carlos Tosca has three options for Thursday's game: Mark Hendrickson, Doug Davis, or Escobar. The betting is that it will be Escobar, on three days' rest. Source: Toronto Sun

(the above was culled from Rotoworld)

And Tosca just said to the ever insightful Faulds that he wants 6-7 from Kelvim today. I sure hope he can use his defense instead of racking up 7-10 K's.

Coach - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#100595) #

While waiting for the game to begin, Tom Cheek chatted with Darrin Fletcher, who is in Cincinnati as a spectator. Fletch quoted Vernon Wells as saying the ball doesn't seem to carry particularly well down the lines at the new park, but from gap to gap (where Vernon and Carlos have been hitting it) it really flies. That might raise eyebrows among physicists and/or meteorologists, but perhaps there's a prevailing breeze up the middle toward the river, in addition to the flat mound.

Mike Wilner, asked about the Jays' team chemistry by a caller on the rain-delay radio show, said he believes it's terrific now, but had some blunt opinions about a couple of years ago. One former player called it the worst situation he was ever in, and according to Mike, who spent plenty of time in that clubhouse as a reporter, Delgado was unhappy, Mondesi's behaviour was awful, Felipe Lopez had a horrible attitude, and both Hamilton and Carpenter did plenty of whining. This is an aspect of the J.P. overhaul that is often overlooked. The new guys, like Hinske, Wells, Lidle, Myers and Cat, bring more than physical skills to the table, and Toronto has become a fun place to play again.

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#100596) #

http://economics.about.com
Does anyone recall Elliot Friedman interviewing Carlos Delgado a couple years ago? That was a terrific interview. You could tell Carlos didn't care for Mondesi at all, but he was being very diplomatic about the whole thing. I found it pretty amusing. It was the interview where Carlos said that he doesn't care "what a bunch of drunks" thought about him.

Mike

_Chuck Van Den C - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#100597) #

Three innings in and Escobar the Seductor is one again looking more like a Cy Young candidate than a man just looking for a role, any role, on the pitching staff. "Hmmm, when I don't nibble, I'm surprisingly effective. Why has no one suggested this to me before?"

_Dr B - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#100598) #

I thought Kelvim was there for his hitting....:-)

Coach - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#100599) #

Wow. That 1-2 fastball Escobar threw past Griffey in the fourth was 97 on the slow Sportsnet gun; had to be 100 MPH. He's got wicked, wicked stuff and as Chuck humourously suggests, may be getting a clue how to use it effectively.

Helping himself with the bat, staked to a 4-0 lead, an economical 42 pitches through four -- let's hope Kelvim can sustain this excellent start for a few more innings.

Coach - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#100600) #

After a leadoff double in the sixth by Castro (with anything resembling hustle it was a standup triple) Kelvim looked shaky for a couple of pitches, but Crash settled him down. The full-count splitter to fan a perplexed Dunn might have been the best of Escobar's mere 67 pitches so far. Three hits, no walks and 5 K's through six very impressive innings.

_A - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 06:05 PM EDT (#100601) #

I'm loving Carlos' new attitude, even though it's 4-nil, with a man on 3rd he's just trying to get the ball on the ground just to get number 5 across the plate. Last year he'd be swing for the fences.

Coach - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#100602) #

Right on, A. (Or as his friends call him, ACF). That's the difference between a selfish player and a team guy, and in part because of that shift in attitude, 2003 is shaping up to be Delgado's finest season.

This is officially a masterpiece by Escobar. Two batters over the minimum, 94 pitches, and no sign of tiring as he punched out two more befuddled Reds in the eighth. Knowing he had this kind of talent and still managed to underachieve was why I found Kelvim so exasperating, but this has been a delight to watch.

If there's time after the game for Mike Wilner to take a few calls on the FAN 590, I'm going to plug the BB exclusive interview with Keith Law, coming up on Tuesday. We'll see if Wilner knows about the ZLC.

_Gerry - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 06:45 PM EDT (#100603) #

Has anyone noticed how Vernon Wells has abonded the "work the count" philosophy. He is a fitst pitch, any pitch, hitter now. It looks like he swings at the first pitch over 50% of the time.

It is OK until he hits a slump.

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 06:49 PM EDT (#100604) #

http://economics.about.com
Oh man.. what a line today by Escobar:

Escobar, P 9.0 4H 0R 1BB 8K

Who saw that coming?!?

A couple of off-topic questions:

1. Does anyone know if the Jays bothered to send in an appeal? (I'd be surprised if they did)

2. Who was at the White Sox/Jays $2 game with us? The only names I remember were Craig and Dave Till. If you were there, could you let me know. I'd like to be able to put faces to names. It would have been nice if Coach were there. Instead I'll pretend he's manager Lou Brown from Major League (and I mean that in the nicest possible way!)

Mike

Coach - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 07:04 PM EDT (#100605) #

The phone lines at the radio station are jammed, no doubt with people jostling to climb aboard the Jays bandwagon.

I don't think Escobar tired in the ninth, as much as he simply got excited. Gil Patterson was calling "nice and easy, Esky" throughout the game, and Crash was making lots of calming gestures along the way. Kelvim relaxed again in the Griffey at-bat, and the DP grounder was a dandy way to seal it.

We shouldn't expect this kind of amazing result every time, but if he can remember what he learned in the first four innings in St. Louis and built upon today, there should be many more solid starts in his future. As Cerutti said on the broadcast, some guys don't even begin to put it all together until they're 27; perhaps Kelvim's turned a career corner. Dare I say it? Maybe they shouldn't trade him after all. At least the asking price has skyrocketed.

Mike, I'm still sorry I missed that White Sox game. I always enjoy the company of the ZLC faithful, and expect to be at the Dome on Tuesday and Wednesday. Anyone who wants to meet there, drop me an e-mail.

_R Billie - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 07:07 PM EDT (#100606) #

This was 2001 form for Escobar today. The key is always control of his fastball and not an insistence for striking everyone out. He threw a lot of two strike sinkers today. He also busted out the curve a few times which gave him a very important second offspeed pitch which he could use to K righties and get ahead against lefties (although the latter strategy didn't work too often).

Gil Patterson was heard yelling "nice and easy Escy" several times today referring to Escobar's habit of overthrowing and losing control and movement on his pitches. By maintaining 90% effort he kept the strong movement of his fastball within the strike zone more often than not and that made all the difference. His fastball ranged anywhere from 94 to 97 mph and one even came in at 91.

_R Billie - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#100607) #

Coach, the maturing of a power pitcher in his late 20's is exactly why I've been arguing in favour of Escobar as a starter all this time. If an organization like Atlanta can live with Russ Ortiz as a starter who has all kinds of control issues then a pitching poor team like the Jays can certainly live with Kelvim.

I do think he'll still be traded (though that could change) but the Jays might actually get something good now. If we can get Stewart back healthy that gives the Jays potentially three big chips to deal with in Stewart, Escobar, and Lidle should they fall more than 3 or 4 games off the pace by mid July.

robertdudek - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#100608) #

I was there sitting to Craig's right.

Pepper Moffatt - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 07:16 PM EDT (#100609) #

http://economics.about.com
Ahh.. you came late right? That's one more ZLCer. Who else was there?

No Memory Mike

_the shadow - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 07:35 PM EDT (#100610) #

Pirates in town next week,Tues.-Lidle,
Wed. -Halladay
Thur.-Escobar????
Then the Cubs Fri. -Sturtze or Lurch,(against Pryor)
Sat. -Lidle
Sun. -Halladay
Is this pushing it a little(a lot), or is it feasible

robertdudek - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 07:39 PM EDT (#100611) #

I came in with Craig

Coach - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#100612) #

Shadow, that's pushing it. Maybe in September, if they're still in the hunt, but not in June. They can use either lefty (Hendrickson's last chance?) on Thursday, and come back with Escobar on normal rest Friday. Lidle's made it clear he doesn't want to pitch on three days' rest, so I have no idea what they have planned for Saturday. Another reprieve for Davis wouldn't surprise me, despite the way Tosca's public statements go back and forth on the four-man rotation. I've said before that Sturtze might be more consistent if he's allowed to start again, so that's worth trying, too.

_Donkit R.K. - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#100613) #

Did anyone else forget about our good friend Super Kelvim? I mean, I love the guy, but it's been so long since he showed up, I basically forgot about him. The bane of his existence, Inconsistent Kelvim, was getting pretty maddening. Long Live Super Kelvim!

_A - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#100614) #

Don't hurt yourself jumping on the bandwagon...let's just remember the last time he had an outing like this was September 25, 2001 (9-0 over the O's, CG SO).

I'll admit I'm extremely impressed but that's only got him 4 extra games to prove (to me) that he's worth a spot in the Majors. I mean sure we know he's got the stuff but using it every 500 days isn't going to keep you around long.

_jason - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#100615) #

I heard something like Frank Catalanatto won't have enough games of MLB service to be a FA at the end of the season, that he'll only be arbitration eligible? Does anybody know if this is true or not?

_Andrew Edwards - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#100616) #

Mike, I was there.

Tall, glasses.

_Andrew Edwards - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 10:55 PM EDT (#100617) #

... and the guy who came and sat in the second row around the seventh was Keith Law.

Coach - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 10:58 PM EDT (#100618) #

Cat will be exactly one day short of qualifying for free agency this winter. That wasn't the only reason J.P. signed him, but it was a nice bonus to get what amounts to a club option for 2004 at market value. I doubt they will go anywhere near arbitration, because I expect the Jays, who appreciate every aspect of his game and his personality, to offer him an extension, assuming his wonky back remains healthy. Frank gives the impression he's very happy to be in Toronto, in a perfect role for his talents on a club with a chance to contend soon, so it could be a long, amicable relationship. Use indelible ink to write him in at LF and leading off next year, and pencil him in for 2005.

_jason - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#100619) #

Cat would make a great LF, he seems to handle it expedentially better than when he plays RF. I hope they can sign him to an extension, as I'm guessing Stewart is on his way out. Probably for the best.

Dave Till - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 11:28 PM EDT (#100620) #

Regarding Escobar: at some point, I think you just have to accept that he isn't going to get any better. This is his seventh year (sixth full year) in the big leagues; he's third on the club in service time, trailing only Delgado and Stewart.

Because he's already 27, you've got to assume that he'll start losing a few inches off his fastball sometime in the next couple of years. And if it's taken him this long to figure out how to win with killer stuff, how long will it take him to adjust to not being able to throw the ball by hitters?

I assume that Escobar is a free agent after this season, so I'd suggest trading him now, while his stock is still high. Though I'd trade him to a National League team, just in case he becomes Woody Williams II.

I think the Cat will return in 2004. As Coach says, he apparently loves it here, and he certainly fills a need - I can't imagine a better #2 hitter, and that's something the Jays were missing for a long time. (Jose Cruz in the 2 hole? Alex Gonzalez!? Homer freaking Bush!?)

_R Billie - Monday, June 09 2003 @ 12:00 AM EDT (#100621) #

Don't hurt yourself jumping on the bandwagon...let's just remember the last time he had an outing like this was September 25, 2001 (9-0 over the O's, CG SO).

Wow...tough room when throwing a complete game shutout against a team that just scored 9 runs off you the previous day isn't a demonstration of ability.

It was actually August 25th, 2001 that he threw his last shutout. But what this view neglects to take into account was that Kelvim wasn't a starter AT ALL last year. He was arbitrarily taken out of the role so we really won't know how many of those kinds of performances he would have had. Regardless, I would take the 4.27 ERA and one strikeout per inning he posted as a reliever from my third starter any day of the week.

Is the standard for a third starter in MLB throwing a shutout several times a year? If it is, the Jays aren't exactly bursting with candidates able to fill that role. Heck, how many of those performances can Doc lay claim to this year?

Regarding Escobar: at some point, I think you just have to accept that he isn't going to get any better. This is his seventh year (sixth full year) in the big leagues; he's third on the club in service time, trailing only Delgado and Stewart.

So what if it's his seventh year? He should have still been in AA and AAA for three of them. Who says he can't get better? Most people agree the best years a pitcher has are after his 26th birthday.

Because he's already 27, you've got to assume that he'll start losing a few inches off his fastball sometime in the next couple of years. And if it's taken him this long to figure out how to win with killer stuff, how long will it take him to adjust to not being able to throw the ball by hitters?

Does Bartolo Colon of today win more games than Bartolo Colon at 24? How about Randy Johnson, Al Leiter, Matt Clement, or any number of other power arms that didn't hone their control until they neared 30 years old? Pitchers do NOT develop like hitters. In fact, the downhill slope for both pitchers and hitters has been slowed considerably in the past ten years by advanced training techniques.

He wasn't a one trick pony in 2001 either. He only had one really disastrous start against Tampa Bay (when the arm tingles forced him out of the rotation) and outside of that he pitched between 4.2 and 9 innings, never allowing more than 4 earned runs. The potential good so far outweighs the bad with Escobar that I cannot comprehend those who would prefer they give rotation spots to folks like Tanyon Sturtze, Mark Hendrickson, and Doug Davis. Escobar has already proven far more than they ever have.

Craig B - Monday, June 09 2003 @ 12:12 AM EDT (#100622) #

Pitchers do NOT develop like hitters.

This is true.

In fact, the downhill slope for both pitchers and hitters has been slowed considerably in the past ten years by advanced training techniques.

This isn't.

Dave Till - Monday, June 09 2003 @ 07:16 AM EDT (#100623) #

The potential good so far outweighs the bad with Escobar that I cannot comprehend those who would prefer they give rotation spots to folks like Tanyon Sturtze, Mark Hendrickson, and Doug Davis. Escobar has already proven far more than they ever have.

I wouldn't go that far :-) - I'd rather have Escobar in the rotation than Sturtze, Hendrickson or Davis. Lurch might become a decent #4 or #5 starter in time; the others have no hope whatsoever. The Jays won't truly contend until they upgrade in all three slots.

My problem with Escobar is that I've seen it all before: flashes of outstanding performance, followed by times where he comes horribly unglued. It's happened this year, it happened last year, it happened the year before that, and the year before that, and the year before that. He cannot be relied upon to produce when you need him.

_R Billie - Monday, June 09 2003 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#100624) #

I can't think of a time when they needed a good performance any more than yesterday. Coming unglued as a starting pitcher makes Escobar no different than a majority of the starters out there who aren't designated the status of #1 or #2 pitchers on their staff. The difference between Escobar and all of those Doug Davis and Tanyon Sturtze type pitchers is he actually has the ability to be more than he has been.

I think people have become so polarized against Escobar because of "unrealized potential" that they're overlooking the fact that more often than not, he keeps his team in the game for about 6 innings. Sure the St. Louis start fell apart but he dominated for the first 4 innings and his team wasn't out of it when he left. And throw in the occasional performance like yesterday and that's enough to give you a reasonable mid-rotation starter. This guy despite throwing up to 98 mph has never had serious arm problems. All he needs is a chance at a full season in the rotation now that he's matured from his very early years as a starter.

I think Tosca and Patterson believe in his ability (more than JP apparently) as Buck did in 2001 which gives me hope that they aren't going to abandon the experiment at the first sign of trouble. In 2001, he had ratios comparable to Roy Halladay as a starter...the only thing that stopped him was the nerve pinch in his arm.

Dave Till - Monday, June 09 2003 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#100625) #

I think people have become so polarized against Escobar because of "unrealized potential" that they're overlooking the fact that more often than not, he keeps his team in the game for about 6 innings.

I am polarized against Escobar because of how badly he melted down in April. How many games did he, single-handedly, cost the Jays?

Having said that: I'm in favour of keeping him in the rotation for now. He's better than Davis, Sturtze, or Hendrickson. But I'd trade him for something useful, if possible: he's in his walk year, and I still think he's going to melt down.

But I'd be happy to be proven wrong :-).

_R Billie - Monday, June 09 2003 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#100626) #

Well, I think we can all agree that April was not the real Escobar (or Halladay for that matter) any more than June is the real Politte. If we're going to jump to conclusions based on small samples we aren't going to get anywhere. His ratios outside of hits allowed were not much different than what he's doing now.

The Jays lose nothing by having Escobar in the rotation. Any number of good things can happen...they'll either get a good starter or a good trade chip out of the deal. And if it doesn't work, he hasn't cost you any more wins than the alternatives would have. Having him at closer or middle relief would give the Jays the least possible return out of a trade. Nobody was going to trust the guy as a closer or setup man with the handicap that April put on his stats. Now that he's thrown a shutout as a starter, people have to take notice of him.

_the shadow - Monday, June 09 2003 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#100627) #

The Jays are in building phase so whether Escobar bombs or stars in his basically 10 starts till the trade deadline, has to be done just to determine if he has changed for the better, or is he the same problem as before, as for trading him to a NL team their GM's too will want to see what to expect from him before agreeing to any deals for their young prospects, so it is simply a matter of handing the ball to Escobar every 5 days sit back and see what happens, if he is a success then the Jays management will then have to decide to keep or trade him.

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