Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - Game 63: Weather Permitting

If it isn't postponed because of rain, like the games in Philly and New York, the Jays will send occasional starter Doug Davis to the hill against the Reds, who are desperate to get a good start from anyone. Tonight it's B.C.'s own Ryan Dempster, who is going to be activated from the DL. There was some talk of sending the slumping Felipe Lopez down, but I believe they decided to give up on Joey Hamilton instead.

The Toronto hitters, particularly the 2-3-4 men, had a great night in the series opener, and their production should continue, but it's hard to imagine Davis shutting down the Cincinnati bats like Doc did last night. If they do get to play, this could be a high-scoring affair. There are a couple of televised distractions this evening, like Funny Cide attempting to win the Triple Crown less than an hour from now, and the Devils trying to hoist Lord Stanley's mug in Anaheim. We have friends visiting, so I won't be providing a play-by-play, and may not see much of the ball game.

It's off topic, but did you see what Joe Torre did to Roger Clemens this afternoon? Seventh inning, leading 1-0 on a three-hitter and having thrown just 84 pitches after a bleeder single by Sosa and a walk to Alou on some very close calls, Rocket Man got the hook! Juan Acevedo promptly served up a three-run jack to Eric Karros on the very first pitch. Unbelievable; when a guy's going for his 300th win, don't you let him get out of his own minor jams? I keep hearing Elton John in my head: And I think it's going to be a long, long time...

Posted by Coach on Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 05:52 AM EDT.

Game 63: Weather Permitting | 24 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

_jason - Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 05:54 PM EDT (#100628) #

I wonder what good ol'George will have to say about Torre's pull?

_A.K.A. - Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#100629) #

Clemens shook his arm earlier that inning, so that may have been the real reason he was pulled.

Also, weather forecast for Cincy is dry.

http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/local/USOH0188?lswe=cincinnati+oh

_Geoff North - Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#100630) #

I own Dempster in the BBFL - he has been a pretty maddening pitcher this season. He had a couple of nice outings, and then he singlehandedly sunk my teams chances at winning the pitching rate stats with one stinker of an outing - the one where he gave up, what was it, seven runs in the second inning, and couldn't even get the third out? Arrgh. I'm sitting him today - I just don't trust his chances against the Toronto bats. Watch him shut down the good guys, if he pitches a gem, feel free to blame it on me.

Mike D - Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#100631) #

Way off-topic, but it's to settle a bet:

To which Van Halen song did Dan Plesac warm up at SkyDome? Was it even Van Halen? We're in the midst of a three-man argument.

Pistol - Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 08:50 PM EDT (#100632) #

OK, I'll pile on......

I'm glad Dunn is leading off for the Reds. If not he might have a few more RBIs against the Jays this series.

It wouldn't be the worst idea for him to lead off if he was on a team like the Jays (well, it'd still be a below average idea), but he's on an NL team following the pitcher in the lineup.

So do people in Cincinatti refer to Bob Boone as 'Ba' as in Ba-Boone?

_A - Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#100633) #

So I'm sitting here listening to Tom and Jerry, I hear Creek's night is up because Phelps is going to pinch-hit. I like that idea: Lefty's given 4 decent innings, he's being seen for the second or third time, since his stuff isn't good and he won't blow you away Creek's probably looking at getting batted around on sooner or later (if not in the 5th you'd probably get 1:1 odds for the 6th).

So Phelps does his job, hitting a single, Clarke to third and the move was worth while, right?...NO! Why Tosca puts in Tam with a tied ball game bewilders me. Unless he's worried the bullpen's better half has been worked a little too much lately, (tho Doc threw 8 innings himself yesterday) placing Tam in that situation is like raising the white flag.

I realize I'm writing this after Tam gives up the solo job but it's almost scientificly proven that the ineffective righty relieves pressure by alowing runs.

_Jeff - Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#100634) #

http://www.hauserreport.com
Torre was, I hope, overreacting to his craven decision to give in to Clemens and allow a key pitcher to throw more than 130 pitches against the Sox in the Clemens' first try for 300. Torre usually keeps his starters in too long and shows little faith in his bullpen; as a Yankee fan, I hope that the fact that this particular decision failed (and was dumb) won't make Torre hesitant to do the right thing in the future.

_Pete D - Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 09:30 PM EDT (#100635) #

Speaking of Tam, it looks as though he could be the next Frascatore...blowing leads and then stealing the wins from the deserved starters. Prediction: Tam will be 10-2 by the end of the season with an ERA above 6.00.
I think we found out how Tam made the Jays' roster. Nice hit Jeff!

_Pete D - Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#100636) #

I don't get Torre. Why would he put in a struggling pitcher with an ERA of 7.83 in Acevedo (now 7.99) when win #300 has eluded Clemens so very well over the past couple of weeks? Well, Weaver didn't fair to well either, but still... Osuna has an ERA of 1.90.
I am sure Clemens will get 300, but who knows? Maybe Torre will throw in Sierra when Clemens has to leave the game with a lead.

_Jordan - Saturday, June 07 2003 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#100637) #

Okay, can I just say that Cliff Politte's act is wearing a little thin for me? And I was thinking this even before Larue's blast. Ninth-inning meltdowns, game-tying home runs allowed, leads endangered or lost -- as David Spade might say, I didn't like this show the first time I saw it, when it was called Kelvim Escobar. Politte's now allowed 10 earned runs in his last 5 appearances and 8 homers in just 25 innings this season. I'll admit I don't know who the answer at closer is, but it sure doesn't much look like the guy who's got the job now. This is exactly the way the Jays played in April -- losing winnable games. It's not a trend I want to see making a comeback.

_Lefty - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 03:45 AM EDT (#100638) #

Hey Jordan, what about aquillino lopez. He did allow 2 hits on Saturday but no runs scored. Over the past month he has been very impressive. Got a great K to IP. I know he's real young but ....

_Chuck Van Den C - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 08:44 AM EDT (#100639) #

I know he's real young but ....

Wasn't it discovered that Lopez was 28, and not 23 as he had previously claimed? Wasn't this partly behind Gillick's decision to make him available in the rule V draft?

If so, then he's only a year younger than Politte.

I had previously been of the mind to mainly use Lopez in low leverage situations, like Thurman last year, to get some success and gain some confidence. But desperate times call for desperate measures...

Looks like it's time to perhaps give Lopez the highest leverage situations and get Politte some more work in middle relief, so that he can find his groove back.

Pistol - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 08:58 AM EDT (#100640) #

While Lopez has probably been the Jays best reliever, it's probably better to leave him where he is. He can be more useful coming into tight spots in the 7th or 8th with runners on base and can pitch more than an inning if needed.

The Jays really don't have any great alternatives so I think you just have to ride out Politte's troubles for now.

robertdudek - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#100641) #

Lopez has already been given the high-leverage situations - the 7th and 8th of a close game are just that. A 3 run lead in the bottom of the 9th is NOT a high-leverage situation.

_Chuck Van Den C - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#100642) #

Lopez has already been given the high-leverage situations

Fair enough. I was certainly not alluding to last night's game. I agree that that protecting a 3-run lead for one inning is relatively low leverage.

And I will concede that Tosca's use of Lopez as the set-up man probably already has him logging the higher leverage innings, albeit inadvertently. By annointing Politte as the closer -- his reward as top ranking reliever on the team -- Tosca is likely, unwittingly, giving Politte the easier and lower leverage tasks (protecting 2- and 3-run leads in the 9th). I think the Blue Jays are not alone in inadvertently giving their set-up man the more challenging assignments.

Perhaps, then, my suggestion is not only off base, but totally wrong. Should Lopez be annointed closer, he would likely be used less and in lower leverage situations.

I guess I'd just like to see Politte given the opportunity to log some innings in middle relief, if only for a while.

Pistol - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#100643) #

I think it's time to pull Davis from the rotation. If he's not going to get strikeouts he can't walk anyone, and can't allow any HRs, but he's doing the latter 2 at a pretty high rate. Plus, he can't seem to get out of the 5th inning.

If the 4 man rotation won't be used I would throw Sturtze back into the rotation and let him eat innings like the plan was when he signed.

Coach - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#100644) #

The radar gun on Sportsnet is notoriously low, but last night it clocked more than one Politte fastball at 89 MPH. He's usually at 92-93 on that gun, which translates to 96-97 almost anywhere else. I think Cliff's being a gamer and pitching hurt, to the detriment of his team, just like Pete Walker did in April. When he did reach back for something extra last night, almost everything was way high, so both his velocity and command are missing. I'd attach his right arm to a lie detector, then ask him how he feels. Even if he's not hiding an injury, there's a mechanical problem to be solved. I can't make the comparison to Escobar's woes, which were (are?) primarily located between his collar and his cap. It isn't a concentration or focus issue that's plagued Politte in these last three appearances, just a lack of stuff.

I own Cliff in the BBFL, and despite his 36.00 ERA and 7.00 WHIP for the week, my Toronto Walrus leads the Sub-Urban Shockers in four of the six pitching categories, with one day to go. Just thought I'd mention that, Jordan.

_the shadow - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 12:02 PM EDT (#100645) #

Pistol I agree, put Tanyon back in the rotation, can't be any worse (can it?)

_Lefty - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#100646) #

Interesting info guys. after careful analyses of all the contributions I'd lean 60/40 for leaving Lopez where he is. The reason--Lopez is often used like last night for 1.3 innings or sometimes longer depending on the need for a dependable reliever. I think this would seriously cut down on effective quality felief pitching from the bullpen overall as it appears that without Lopez shutting down the opponents to get to the ninth there would be no lead to close.
On the %40 side Politte has proven effective as the set-up man for the past 100 or so games.
Coaches point kinda haunts me though, if Politter is pitching with an injury now as eveidenced by by reduced fastball then he can not be counted on to cover that extra 2/3 innning.
I believe all of this is very crucial considering the lack of depth from the 3,4,5 pitchers coupled with what might be the worst bullpen in baseball.
I do however have a solution if the Jays are serious about taking a run at the wildcard. Call up Thurman, who as Gideon reported is lights out for the first three innings but only has two effective pitches going for him. The Jays need to decide if he has the stuff to be a MLB starter or not. If its is presumed that he will be a middle reliever then call him up now to take Lopez's role, move Politte back to short use set up, ie 2/3 an inning and let Lopez close. The guy looks like he has K-Rod stuff. Also reminds me of Mariano Rivera his first year in the bigs.

_Chuck Van Den C - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 12:26 PM EDT (#100647) #

Pistol I agree, put Tanyon back in the rotation.

Agreed. Davis figures to have about as little upside as Sturtze, perhaps even less, so why not give Tosca a second lefty in the pen? Sturtze at least has a recent history of being able to give a team 7 crummy innings rather than just 4.

It should be noted that Davis does not have LOOGY written all over him with L/R splits of 812/796 in 2000-2002 and 768/885 this season.

It isn't a concentration or focus issue that's plagued Politte in these last three appearances, just a lack of stuff.

I concur with Coach here. I'd rather hear Politte 'fess up to an injury that he's pitching through rather than hear that he's simply lost his effectiveness. He's the kind of player that's easy to root for. I hope he can sort himself out.

_Chuck Van Den C - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#100648) #

Also reminds me of Mariano Rivera his first year in the bigs.

I hope not! Rivera's ERA in 1995, largely as a failed starter, was 5.51. He did become Mariano Rivera in 1996, however, once moved to the bullpen fulltime.

The Lopez/Rivera comp is a little off in one other regard. Lopez's slider is very effective against RHB but he has been vulnerable to LHB this season. Rivera's biting cutter has made him more effective against LHB than RHB throughout his career. Some switch-hitters even elect to bat righthanded against him.

_Lefty - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#100649) #

Right you are Chuck. I didnt go back to Rivera's career stats before my last contribution. I was relying on my memory and it only went as far as when Rivera was relieving. That year Rivera was an unheralded reliever. By mid to late season it was becoming apparent that the kid had devasting stuff. Then the Yanks went into the playoffs and faced the Mariners. During those playoffs the Yanks decided that they would let Wettland go heading into the next season.
Lopez stuff gets more devasting as the ball crosses the plate. With Rivera it was a rising fastball and the batters would swing as the ball was rising up to their shoulders. The ball "appeared" to to gain MPB. I see simalarities with Lopez. Not necessarily where its crossing the plate but the inability of MLB players to make good contact. Many are walking away truly confounded. Take a look at his K to IP ratio. K-Rod, Riverish looking.

_Mick - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#100650) #

I don't mean to be TOO picky here, but you're collapsing two years into one.

Rivera was a rookie in '95, yes. Made 10 starts. Yanks played (and lost to) Seattle in the playoffs.

The next year, 1996, Rivera was a full-time reliever, the Yankees won the World Series -- after beating Texas and Baltimore, not Seattle, in the playoffs -- and Wetteland, the WS MVP, left after that season.

To refer to Rivera as "unheralded" that year is wildly inaccurate since -- and people do forget this -- he actually finished third in the Cy Young balloting as a setup man. I'm just guessing, but that has to be the highest finish ever by someone with such low "counting stats" -- 8 wins and 5 saves.

_Lefty - Sunday, June 08 2003 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#100651) #

Mick, i was going to leave this but me thinks you are being too picky. he was unheralded going into the season not going out of it obviously. Thanks though.

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