Williams is due to hit a rough stretch - he's not as good as he's pitched. Now's as good a night as any.

Huh. Heads-up... triple play.

If St. Louis does this in Toronto, I'm not sure this call gets overturned... but just watch.

Unbelievable. Is the umpire taking back his call? Time to protest.

Did he *ask* for help? No. Bizarre.

The Jays should get the force at first and second,the red-birds can't have it both ways!

The Jays ought to protest this game. The umpires obviously blew the call - Cat trapped the ball - but they can't reverse a call like that.

And it looks like they are going to protest it.

Is playing a game under protest purely symbolic, or will MLB review the events and adjust things after the fact if they feel it's justified?

Its mostly symbolic. I have NEVER seen the umpires reverse a call after making it. Tosca did the right thing, making sure he made them toss him.

Does this mean the second and third base umps can overule the homeplate umpire on close balls and strikes? The correct call was made...but this is not baseball.

MLB will review a game played under protest (it used to be the league president, who knows who does it in interleague play) and if the umpires are adjudged to have blown the call (I think they have, but I'm unsure, I'm checking now with my sources and the Official Rules) they certainly will replay the game, or reprise it from the triple play that was called.

How on Earth is Alderson et al gonna deal with this? Seriously, do they chalk the whole thing up to a bad call, or three bad calls in this case, give the crew a slap on the wrists and move on? Ithink that's what's gonna happen. Don't look for any sympathy from the US Media. Total bull.

Wow, replay the whole game? That would take more spine than Bud Lite can dream of. Anybody ever seen this enforced?

When Woody hit the bases clearing triple, I thought Rod Black was going to have an MI. Seriously, it's not Game 7 of the World Series, dude...simmer down about 10 levels.

I'm watching this game from the St. Louis feed (I can't tell you guys how annoying Joe Buck is in his homer mode) but I don't know what Tosca could be protesting. I'm been watching in and out so maybe I'm not sure what the issue is. Is it that Danley didn't ask for help before the other umpires jumping in? If that's the case, I think the umpires will be applauded for being proactive in correcting what turned out to be a poor call.

I would appreciate being enlightened - I'd be shocked in any case if the game will be replayed from the point of the mistake though.

Tosca was upset that they "reversed" a call. In baseball, the call is made and then the call stands.

Jason - but umpires do "reverse" calls. For example, a common reversal is on a ball that one umpire thinks is not a home run, especially on fair/foul calls. Other umpires will huddle up and will change the call if necessary.

More often than not, the reversal is the correct call, as it was in this case with Catalanotto. I don't like it but I don't see how the Blue Jays can win this one.

Tosca should have a leg to stand on because it's not a simple safe/out call. The subsequent two outs hinged on the inital out call being made. The second base umpire called the two baserunners out right away. If he thought the catch call was questionable, he shouldn't have called the baserunners out.

The problem with umpires offering help, unasked, is that it's explicitly against the rules, specifically Rule 9.02(c).

Generally, "safe" or "out" is a judgment call and is irreversible.

An excellent rundown of changing calls :

http://eteams.com/baseball/boards/obrrules/message.cfm?id=143143

There is simply no scope to deny this protest. The initial three "out" calls cannot be changed, it was a triple play, and the game will have to be replayed from that point.

I still can't see it happening--but imagine if it did after Woody throws a no-no!

Oh, um, hi. Semi-frequent lurker, very infrequent poster.

Scott, as soon as it happened I started thinking the same thing. :) Just the cruel, cruel little demon in me.

Craig - thanks for the knowledge. Rule 9.02(a) says that a judgment call is whether a runner is safe or out - of course, the list is not exhaustive as it includes other judgment decisions. It looks like a lot of it is going to depend on the umpires' game report. I didn't see the play so I don't know if Danley asked for help or the other umpires stepped in uninvited. I have a feeling I know what the report is going to say though.

Another Scott - I was typing the same thing about a no-hitter before I refreshed and saw your comment. Like you, I can't see it happening.

Unbelievable. Is the umpire taking back his call? Time to protest.

If Kerwin Danley had asked for help instead of just making the out call on the original hit, there would be no grounds for a protest. His cronies would have told him it looked like no catch. But he didn't! What I'm sure Tosca was telling all four umps -- and the embarrassed crew sure did give him a l-o-n-g time to make his point -- was that they NEVER take back a safe or out call. Not even if you blow it as bad as Don Denkinger in the World Series, or Danley tonight. And if the batter was out, it was a triple play. Simple. The second base ump made the correct call -- if the batter was out, so were both runners.

Whatever La Russa said (presumably, "you can't call a triple play on a single") caused the Four Stooges to start covering up like cats in a litter box. The other three refused to eject Carlos because they knew he was right; they stalled for ten minutes, leaving that distasteful chore to Danley, who caused the whole mess in the first place. MLB should suspend all four, with Danley and home plate ump Wally Bell (who could have had the guts to uphold the "wrong" call on the grounds that it was made) getting extra-long vacations.

Collectively, it's the worst job of umpiring I've seen since a pair of clowns in Barrie, presumably friends of the coach, stole a game from my undefeated Newmarket tyke Rep team in 1997 by going for a ten minute walk down the right field line until curfew was reached, instead of letting us hit. Those guys were crooked; this crew is merely incompetent.

Finishing this game is a farce. The ugliest, most ridiculous "no-hitter" in baseball history should be replayed from 1-0, start of the third. Any other decision by MLB is going to require a better spin doctor than Sammy Sosa.

Even more important, Woody's on my fantasy team. Will his no-no (did I just jinx it?) Stick if the protest goes through?

If Woody pitches a no-no, there is no way this protest is being upheld, right or wrong.

On a positive note, Josh Towers wasn't horrible.

Coach--uglier than Joe Cowley and AJ Burnett's no-hitters? Impossible! :)

I had made the assumption that the game was being played under protest but I don't see any evidence of it in the game notes from Yahoo, Sportsline or USA Today. Can you protest a game after you've been ejected?

Butterfield announced the protest after Tosca got the boot.

And yeah, I was kidding about Towers.

Spicol - thanks. The St. Louis are unbearable to listen to so I've only been watching the video feed.

Small prediction : MLB will deny the protest on the perverse, but undeniably correct reason that "you can't protest a judgment call" and that the safe/out call is a judgment call.

Time for a little "life isn't fair" lesson for all the kiddies out there.

Good job O-Dawg. It seems it's always the middle infielders who break up no-hitters.

The best part of this entire game was seeing Kerwin Danley, Bill Welke, Rob Drake (who are probably all 6') and Wally Bell (who is well over 6' and looks massive with the chest protector on) all surrounding little ol' 5'7 Carlos while he ripped into each of them.

Damn. I wanted to see if Bud had the cooyongs to cancel a no-no. (Yes, I know the answer.)

I'd also like to acknowledge Pat (master of the inane) Tabler for letting us know that "if they wanna break this up, I think what the Jays have to do is swing the bats" ...

Tom Cheek wants in on the babble-fest and points out that the silver lining for the Blue Jays is that the Yankees won, so coupled with the Red Sox loss the Blue Jays will maintain their place in the A.L. East standings.

Pardon?

Cooyongs? I gotta admit, that's a new one for me.

Well, he did need some work AND it is his hometown so I guess they really had to pitch Politte ... but he is on my fantasy team and I don't have Woody to offset this little effort. Oh well. Here's hoping they have more success containing the Reds.

I don't live in Toronto and I haven't been there in almost nine years but I watch and listen to all the Jays games I can. Joe Buck is the first person I have heard pronounce Tosca's name with a long "O" sound.

AFAIK, Tom, Jerry and Mike W have always pronounced it Toss-ca as opposed to Buck's Toes-ca (I haven't seen any RSN, TSN or CBC broadcasts). Someone please tell me that Buck's pronunciation is wrong so I can feel justifiably annoyed with him.

OK - only 12 runs to go to catch up.

Huckaby pinch hits and doubles? What a game.

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Can somebody explain to me what happened RE: The appeal?

I don't see any scenario where the umps didn't goof.

If the ump who originally made the call changed his mind and reversed the call, he violated the first half of 9.02(a):

Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions.

If instead he changed his call due to the advice of another umpire, he goofed again. See 9.02(b) and the first part of 9.02(c):

9.02(b)If there is reasonable doubt that any umpire's decision may be in conflict with the rules, the manager may appeal the decision and ask that a correct ruling be made. Such appeal shall be made only to the umpire who made the protested decision.

9.02(c)If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

So they only way the umpire could change his call under the rules is by 9.02(c), where the call was appealed by the manager under rule 9.02(b). However since it's a safe/out call it's not covered by 9.02(b), so neither manager can appeal the call due to 9.02(a). Since it's not an appeal play, 9.02(c) doesn't apply.

The last half of 9.02(c) covers checked swing appeals.

To be honest, other than the very rare fair/foul reversal, I've never played or been an umpire in a game where another umpire has changed a call. I'm surprised that kind of thing can happen in the bigs.

If anyone can provide me with any more info, I'd be grateful.

Cheers,

Mike

Joe Buck makes it sound like Toes-ca is protesting the game because even if the ball wasn't caught, Buck is suggesting that Toes-ca claimed that Tino was out at second base on that play when replays show otherwise.

I'd be curious to see what shakes down and if what Craig, Mike M and Coach say are even heard by the Commish's office. Somehow, I doubt it.

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I'd be curious to see what shakes down and if what Craig, Mike M and Coach say are even heard by the Commish's office. Somehow, I doubt it.

I'm 100% sure the Jays will file a formal appeal giving a similar argument to what is posted on here and I'm 99% sure that they'll lose.

MLB will just probably argue that while the Jays are technically correct, umpires have been changing non-appeal calls for years. We've all seen instances where on possible homeruns fair/foul calls have been switched.. often due to managers yelling at umps to "get some help". I've always felt this is technically illegal, but everybody does it, so it's become part of the game. A deviation like this is small potatoes when you consider how big league umps completely disregard the strike zone in the rule book.

Every umpiring clinic I've ever gone to has stressed that you make the call once and sell it like you're absolutely certain that you're right, even if you're not. That's what makes this surprising to me.

Mike

We've all seen instances where on possible homeruns fair/foul calls have been switched.. often due to managers yelling at umps to "get some help".

I see this as a completely different situation, because calls were made by other umpires after the questionable call was made and before a stoppage in play. So, now it's like you have to go three plays back in order to correct a call. There's absolutely no way that should be allowed to happen.

Once again, the umpires have unduly influenced the outcome of the game instead of simply making decisions based on what has unfolded in front of them. If the call were made correctly and Matheny's hit were ruled a trap, then the baserunners may have advanced even further due to a faulty throw or something similar, but the umpires' calls caused the runners to hold. Ridiculous. This is the entire reasoning behind why umpires have not and SHOULD not be allowed to overturn calls that were made before the last action. Players should not be put in a position where they act based on an umpire's call only to have that umpire suddenly 'unsure'. Home run calls are different...players don't decide what to do based on the call.

Joey Hamilton gave up 3 runs in 2 innings tonight to see his ERA rise to 14.09.

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I see this as a completely different situation, because calls were made by other umpires after the questionable call was made and before a stoppage in play. So, now it's like you have to go three plays back in order to correct a call. There's absolutely no way that should be allowed to happen.

I agree.. which is why these types of appeals have become a commonly accepted practice, even though it's against the rules under a strict interpretation of the book. They're considered to be "legal" now under what I consider a very loose interpretation of a part of rule 9.05(c) General Instructions to Umpire

Each umpire team should work out a simple set of signals, so the proper umpire can always right a manifestly wrong decision when convinced he has made an error. If sure you got the play correctly, do not be stampeded by players' appeals to "ask the other man." If not sure, ask one of your associates. Do not carry this to extremes, be alert and get your own plays. But remember! The first requisite is to get decisions correctly. If in doubt don't hesitate to consult your associate. Umpire dignity is important but never as important as "being right.

To me this completely contradicts the section of 9.02 I quoted before. I usually take this to mean that if you accidentally yell SAFE on a play everybody (including yourself) knows is an out, quickly reverse your call. That's only my interpretation, tho, and I didn't even see the play in question to know how close/not close it was.

Mike

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A small goof. I believe the instructions to the umpire are **after** rule 9.05(c) and not a part of that rule. I'm not 100% sure about that, tho. I haven't umpired in a couple years. :)

Mike

Tosca is pronounced with a short vowel as in Toss. It's a Spanish surname and in Spanish there is no such thing as a long vowel sound.

I can't imagine MLB replaying the game from the point of the catch. (For one thing, they'd get death threats from Woody Williams' fantasy owners :-).)

I agree with Craig: sometimes, life just isn't fair, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Joey Hamilton gave up 3 runs in 2 innings tonight to see his ERA rise to 14.09.

Oops, I flubbed the math.

On the same night that saw Woody Williams lower his ERA to 1.99, Hamilton lowered, not raised, his ERA to 14.09 with his 2-inning-3-run effort.

Williams is due to hit a rough stretch - he's not as good as he's pitched. Now's as good a night as any.

Who's the idiot who wrote that?

Oh, wait....nevermind.

Politte has been awful in his last 2 appearances - both non-save situations.

1 2/3 Inn, 7 hits, 1 walk, 2 Ks, and 4 runs

If this was Escobar he'd be ripped. Is it a double standard if the same isn't done with Politte?

If this was Escobar he'd be ripped. Is it a double standard if the same isn't done with Politte?

Escobar was frustrating because of his history of inconsistency in the closer's role. This is Politte's first foray into suckiness. If he's still inconsistent in a year then yeah, I'll rip into him.

Woody Williams is living proof that movement and command is everything in pitching. He's not a big guy which just makes it easier for him to get his mechanics right every single time. It must be nice to be able to throw the ball exactly where you want, anytime you want. Loaiza's finding out the same thing this year too.

If this was Escobar he'd be ripped. Is it a double standard if the same isn't done with Politte?

I think a few factors buy Politte some latitude:

1. he has never used coming into a non-save situation as an excuse for not pitching well (at least, not that I've heard)

2. he was acquired cheaply and is not a failed uberprospect

3. he doesn't seem to have Escobar's natural talent

4. he makes considerably less loot than Escobar

5. he's much classier than Escobar

6. he hasn't proven that his recent failures are part of a larger pattern of consistent failure