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The Moose is 16-7, 2.92 against Toronto lifetime, 2-0 already this year. Only Frank Catalanotto (.464 in 28 AB) has had any real success against him; Cat was 2-for-4 in the third game of the season, and had one of just three Jays hits on April 15, when Mussina was superb, striking out nine. If there's any hope for the boys in blue, it's that Mussina hasn't been as dominant in his last two starts as he was going 7-0 with a 1.70 ERA to start the campaign. Both Anaheim and Texas got to him for four runs, about the most the Jays can expect tonight.

On the mound for the good guys is Kelvim Escobar, making his second start since 2001. The failed closer lasted just three innings against the Royals, walking three, striking out three and allowing two hits. Because he goes so deep into counts, he required 61 pitches that night, and should be ready to stretch out to 80 or 85 tonight, if he's effective. The proud owner of a fastball that hits the upper 90s, an equally nasty slider, a devastating splitter and a back-breaking changeup, Kelvim likes to show them all to every batter. He will undoubtedly need help from the bullpen at some point tonight, and while Tanyon Sturtze might be the first man up, it's also likely we'll see Doug Creek at some point; the erratic lefty hasn't worked in a week.


If I sound pessimistic, it's because it's a mismatch, at least on paper. The only things in Toronto's favour are intangibles: they are one of baseball's hottest teams in May, especially at the plate, and had another fine game last night, so they should be confident. The Yankees have to be worried about their injured (or slumping) hitters and their shaky bullpen, not to mention their inconsistent defence. So nothing is guaranteed, and anything's possible. The Carlos Delgado who hit just .209 against Mussina with 20 strikeouts in 67 previous AB might not be the same guy who is currently destroying AL pitching. Escobar may pitch seven efficient innings.

With a win tonight, the Jays would really start to make the Yankees nervous. An inspired Cory Lidle might outpitch Boomer, and anybody can beat Jeff Weaver, even Doug Davis. The most ardent Toronto fans, a group to which I proudly belong, were hoping for a split in this series, so a sweep is highly unlikely, and it's probably New York's turn tonight. Like many of you, I'll be flipping between the hockey game on CBC and the ball game on Sportsnet.
Game 49: Can The Jays Solve Mussina? | 39 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Coach - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#101907) #
It isn't raining at the moment, but they are just removing the tarp and there's a delay announced until approximately 7:30. Derek Jeter was supposed to start, but at the last minute, he's being replaced at SS by Enrique Wilson, and Torre is shuffling his already makeshift batting order. Perhaps this is just weather-related, but the radio crew doesn't have any details. Stay tuned...
Coach - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 08:25 PM EDT (#101908) #
Jeter has a "tight" hamstring, so the Yankees are taking no chances on a cool, damp night with the possibility of a slippery field.

Top 1: Both Stewart and Cat hit sharp liners right at infielders, then V-Dub stretched his hit streak to 11 games with an opposite-field double under Giambi's glove. Tom Candiotti, not surprisingly, is a big fan of Mussina's knuckle-curve, which froze Delgado for the K.

Bottom 1: Because Escobar is a horrible fielder, the Yanks had Soriano bunt his way on -- Hinske, playing deep, had no chance. Since Kelvim doesn't bother holding runners, Soriano stole second easily on the first pitch. After a Rivera ground out, Giambi sliced a double to the gap left-center; 1-0 Yanks. Escobar did make a nice pitch to pop up Posada, then tried to throw fastballs past Matsui, eventually losing him. Myers couldn't find a foul pop, which gave Mondesi another life (score it E-10 for an easy play not made) but Kelvim punched him out looking on his 23rd pitch of the inning, so it wasn't costly.

Top 2: Great at-bat by Myers to draw a walk after falling behind 0-2, then Phelps worked a 3-1 count, but Mussina came back to get him. Hinske flared a 2-2 curve for a single, then O-Dog went inside-out for a bloop to shallow left that loaded the bases. Bordick bounced one up the middle (13 game hit streak) to cash in two, and the Jays took the lead without hitting a ball hard. After a Stewart full-count popup, Cat calmly stroked a 2-2 pitch up the middle (Wilson should have had it) for an RBI single to make it 3-1. Mighty Moose has thrown 56 pitches in two innings against the incredibly patient Toronto hitters.

Bottom 2: Handed a 2-run lead, Escobar proceeds to walk the first two hitters. I can't watch him any more.
Craig B - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#101909) #
You can open your eyes coach... Soriano grounded into a 6-4-3 double play to end the inning without a Yankee run.
Craig B - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#101910) #
They're going to make Mussina's arm fall off. This is a grat performance.
Craig B - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#101911) #
Also a great performance. I'm not sure what "grat" means.
Craig B - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#101912) #
Me again. Just to put that remark into context, Mussina has thrown 87 pitches through four innings, he's had to throw *58* strikes just to get twelve outs. The Jays have worked a huge number of counts and have basically taken Mussina - one of the league's five best pitchers - and smacked him around like a rookie.

This is one heck of an offense.
_Jabonoso - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#101913) #
Is there a pitch count for Kelvim?
_Jabonoso - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#101914) #
Looks like Kelvim could give us some badly needed quality starts, bbs and all...
It a shame he is in the ZLC doghouse...
_Eric - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#101915) #
Hm...Why is Matsui in center and not Mondesi?
Craig B - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#101916) #
Anderson looks like Nuke LaLoosh out there.
Craig B - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#101917) #
It a shame he is in the ZLC doghouse...

Well, he's not in my doghouse. I mean, he was, but he showed a ton of character in relinquishing the easy closer's job for the much tougher job of starting, when the team really needed him. And he has shown in the past he *can* be effective.

Hm...Why is Matsui in center and not Mondesi?

Matsui's a natural centerfielder, has played there for many years. Mondesi hasn't played centerfield regularly for five years...
Coach - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#101918) #
Escobar left with the 4-1 lead after five, throwing 74 pitches, 42 for strikes. He allowed just three hits, but walked four. Good call by Tosca to let him finish on a positive note. Pete Walker struck out Giambi and Posada and got Matsui to ground out -- a welcome return. Mussina is also done, with rookie Jason Anderson taking over. Myers just ripped a 2-out double down the line to score Stewart with the fifth Toronto run. I'm very happy to have been wrong.

Jabonoso, I admire Kelvim's talent, it's his inability to get the most out of it that I find incredibly frustrating. With just a little more effort to improve himself, he could be great, but it doesn't seem to matter enough to him.

Mark Hendrickson is warming up in the bullpen alongside Sturtze -- what's that all about? Is Creek hurt, or is he no longer in the mix?
_R Billie - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#101919) #
Hey, Kelvim as a starter was never in my doghouse. I never like him as a short reliever.

He's not going to ever be easy to watch. But neither was Bartolo Colon early in his career. Neither was Russ Ortiz...well ever. In fact I would call Escobar a BETTER version of Russ Ortiz. Both will allow tons of baserunners and throw lots of pitches, but Kelvim has better stuff.

Control of his fastball is everything for him. Once he establishes his feel in a game he can be very tough to hit. That's why I like him stretched over a greater number of innings. If he was at full starting strength he still would have had enough pitches left to possibly go two more innings.

Now here's my question. If he keeps this up, if the develops as a starter and returns to his 2001 form the rest of this season...WHY trade him? The Jays want a high ceiling starter with experience yet youth who isn't prohibitively expensive. That fits Escobar exactly in my books.

Mark my words, if he gets traded to an organization with a competent pitching coach, he will be a Matt Clement like story.
Coach - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#101920) #
Billie, no pitching coach can help a guy who doesn't want to listen or do the work. Are you saying Gil Patterson isn't competent? He's done a great job with Walker, Politte, Hendrickson -- guys who weren't exactly stars before they arrived here, and are useful big-leaguers now.
_R Billie - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#101921) #
Escobar strikes me as not the brightest bulb in the world but he doesn't strike me as a guy who doesn't want to work or succeed. He just needs to be convinced that he doesn't have to strike everyone out. That is don't get ahead 1-2 and then go full count with two splitters in a row.

I of course meant no offence to Gil Patterson...he's only been the coach for a short time. But I can't stress enough that not everyone develops and matures at the same rate. Escobar is not like the highly disciplined, intelligent Greg Maddux or Mark Prior. He's a throwback to the Nuke Laloosh type characters with the million dollar arm and ten cent head.

Part of the blame has to go to the Jays for bringing him up as a 21 year old long before he was mature or had a significant number of AA innings, let alone AAA innings. JP Ricciardi would dig his own grave before he rushed the Jays pitching prospects to the degree that Halladay, Carpenter, and Escobar were in the mid-90's. Imagine Dustin McGowan coming up the big leagues right now and that's basically what they did with those three pitchers.

San Diego and Florida strike me as organizations with decent pitching coaches (Florida's penchant for blowing out arms aside) but why couldn't they get anything out of Matt Clement and the Cubs did? Because the Cubs had (A) a better pitching coach (one of the best in the majors) and (B) acquired Clement in his late 20's, just about the age when your average starting pitcher reaches maturity and has his best years.

Kelvim is just about the age that Matt Clement was when he made his big turnaround with the Cubs. I hope he does it with the Blue Jays because it would be very painful for me to see it happen with another team. Kelvim represents the true cost of rushing players to the big leagues before they're ready. If he came up at 24 years old instead of 21, he may have had a much different career...not the mention the Jays would control his rights for a lot longer.
robertdudek - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#101922) #
I think the whole thing with Escobar is command. Many power pitchers improve their control with time. In fact, for most good young pitchers (almost invariably power pitchers) it's a race to see whether they will find their command, lose their fastball, or get a serious injury first.

If he continues to start, a guy like Kelvim should, over time, develop greater control of his fastball and off-speed pitches. If he does that and maintains his fastball and avoids serious injuries, he's going to be a top-notch pitcher.

This assumes that Kelvim wants to be a good big league pitcher.
robertdudek - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 10:34 PM EDT (#101923) #
Except that the Jays were hovering in a pennant race and Escobar absolutely burst onto the scene. At that point it was hard to resist the notion that Escobar would be an instant star.
robertdudek - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#101924) #
I'm referring to Kelvim's '98 campaign.
_R Billie - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 10:46 PM EDT (#101925) #
Understood Robert...but a pennant race still doesn't excuse bringing up a 21-year old with virtually no experience in the high minors or demonstration of good command in the minors. We're not talking about Frankie Rodriguez who absolutely blew away the minors.
_Maybe - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 11:01 PM EDT (#101926) #
Mark Hendrickson is warming up in the bullpen alongside Sturtze -- what's that all about?

Throwing a side? This would be his day, and due to the rain he might not have thrown one earlier.
_jason - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#101927) #
Watched the game. I think a lot of credit should go to the Jays hitting coach, because it seemed to me that the Jays hitters are adhering to a philosophy of working the pitcher into deep counts and going with the pitch, rather than just happening to hit well individually.

Also, I noticed Candiotti seems to talk about what the hitters are doing wrong or right more than the pitchers, which seems to be the opposite of what Cerrutti does. Anyways, I think he's at least marginally better than Cerrutti but that Faulds has got to go. But at least he's not Brian Williams.
_rodent - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#101928) #
Pretty satisfying. About Escobar: Robnjohn opined that he had thrown enough pitches to have gained a feel/command for his heater. That seemed about right. He looked most confident his last inning.

Mike was good tonight, eh? Completing a tough double play--Tam having put him at risk with the low throw, Posada's illegal-use-of-hands, Delgado scooping. And then in the ninth, in the hole--that was hit hard--great throw from one knee, Delgado stretching. Oh, and the fist pumps. These guys are having fun. The Yankees sure as hell aren't.
_rodent - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 11:22 PM EDT (#101929) #
Sorry. Tomnjohn.
_Shane - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#101930) #
Doug Creek went on the DL with a case of lack of talent, otherwise known as a sore elbow. Josh Towers was added to the 40man in his stead.
_benum - Friday, May 23 2003 @ 11:44 PM EDT (#101931) #
Still no Sac's! (hooray!)

Even with a first and second no out situation in the 4th that had Candioti thinking bunt, Carlos has Bordick swing away.

I agree with Tosca here for sure. 3 to 1 for the Jays + Mussina is on the ropes = go for the big inning.
As it turns out they only scored 1 in that inning anyway, but I like the Weaver ball here.

There is a place and time for the sacrifice (although it's used too much in todays offensive era), the Jays haven't been there yet.
_Geoff North - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 12:47 AM EDT (#101932) #
Interesting quote from Escobar in Yahoo!'s recap of the game:

``Tonight at the beginning of the game, I didn't feel very good. But at the end, I felt stronger,'' Escobar said. ``I always get stronger later in the game.''

Just a sweet nothing quote for the reporters after the game, or is there at least a kernal of truth to it? Would help explain some of his failings as a short reliever, and makes you wonder why the Jays stuck with him in that role for as long as they did.
_Geoff North - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 12:48 AM EDT (#101933) #
A question, what happened on the Posada slide play?
_jason - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 01:02 AM EDT (#101934) #
I think he was frustrated he was hit 3 times in 2 games so he pushed Bordick while he slid into 2nd base. It wasn't a big deal but it could have been if Bordick was hurt.
_R Billie - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 01:27 AM EDT (#101935) #
I don't know if there's a way to go about showing that Escobar improves as the game goes on. I guess you could look at his 2000 Splits and 2001 Splits and scroll right to the bottom for his pitch count breakdown.

I'm not sure that it says much at all. 2000 was the last time he was a full time starter and he had a very high first inning OPS against that year. In 2001 though, his OPS against was consisently good both early and late. Only when he exceeded 105 pitches did it go up significantly.

As to why he was put in short relief...well the Jays needed a closer after trading Koch and JP designated Escobar (presumably because he fit the "profile" of a closer). Which logistically did not make sense...the Jays were short on quality starters and that removed one of the few starters they had that actually pitched well the previous year. Finding another closer would not have been simple but it should have been possible.
_leftcoast pete - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 01:58 AM EDT (#101936) #
I guess everyones signed off now. excellent disussion on escobar tonite. one thing everyone is forgetting though, two seasons ago he was switched from Kochs set up man to starter mid season. I had him on my fantasy team that year. the team did exactly the same with him as they are doing now. they built up the inning and pitches slowly. escobar blossomed in the starting role then Bam. The fingers on his pitching hand would go numb after two innings. The team was pretty scared circulatory problems no one knew. Thats one of the main reasons they traded Koch. They needed a premium role for escobar figuring his condition was being brought on with the strain of starting. I think if his circulation keeps pumping then so will he. As well I believe the earlier contributions are spot on. Trade Escobar and heartbreak may follow. Million dollar arm and ten cent brain. Thats right to. Go Jays Go. Looking for the wildcard?
Craig B - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 03:38 AM EDT (#101937) #
I think he was frustrated he was hit 3 times in 2 games so he pushed Bordick while he slid into 2nd base.

It looked to me on the replay (hard to tell, I only saw it once) that he nailed Bordick in the cup, but who knows. At any rate, it was clearly deliberate interference.
Coach - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 07:11 AM EDT (#101938) #
How classy is Mike Bordick? Even though he was hurt on the play (left ankle) and it's obvious there was illegal contact, he made sure nobody blamed Posada for intent to injure:

"I think I was on him and he just threw up his arms to protect himself."
robertdudek - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#101939) #
Kelvim had 15 starts in AA before he was called up. AA fits my definition of high-minors. Many pitchers have found suceess in the majors with fewer starts in AA/AAA.
Gitz - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#101940) #
Robert,

Please provide some pitchers who have had success jumping from AA to the minors, or at least those who did so with a little AAA experience. I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious as to your definition of "many." (Damn this impersonal Internet; if we were in person I wouldn't have to make 94 percent of the qualifications I do. But I can't make it out to Toronto. The SARS threat, you see.)

I can think of two Jays immediately -- Brandon Lyon and Mike Smith (I think?) -- who came up too soon and were promptly whacked around.
_John N. - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#101941) #
Gitz,

Brandon Lyon was certainly whacked around, but I think "promptly" might be pushing it a little. In his rookie season (2001), he posted a 4.29 ERA in 63 innings with fairly good peripheral numbers. He won his first major league game in style, giving up one run on four hits and a walk in seven-plus innings. He got knocked around a bit in his next three starts, but I don't think that's a large enough sample on which to make a strong judgement, especially since he finished the year hot (albeit against poor hitting teams).

It is true that Lyon had a rough time in 2002. Was that due to being rushed to the majors? Perhaps, but his success in 2001 speaks to the contrary.
robertdudek - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#101942) #
Lookking through my Baseball Register, here are some current pitchers and their experience in AA and AAA before establishing themselves as big league pitchers.

Selected pitchers with fewer than 10 AAA starts before establishing themselves in the bigs.

pithcer ----------- AA ---AAA
Kelvim Escobar ---- 15 --- 0
Mark Prior -------- 6 --- 3
Roger Clemens ----- 7 --- 6
Jake Peavy -------- 19 --- 0
Odalis Perez ------ 21 --- 0 (13 relief)
Runelvys Hernandez 14 --- 0
Jeremy Affeldt ---- 28 --- 0
Kevin Millwood ---- 11 --- 9
Eric Milton ------- 14 --- 0
Mike Mussina ------ 7 --- 0
Roy Oswalt -------- 18 --- 5
Joe Kennedy ------- 7 --- 4
Brad Penny -------- 23 --- 0
Andy Benes -------- 16 --- 5
Josh Beckett ------ 13 --- 0
Tony Armas -------- 24 --- 4
Javier Vazquez ---- 6 --- 7 (for finetuning)
AJ Burnett -------- 23 --- 0
Mark Buerhle ------ 16 --- 0
Freddie Garcia ---- 19 --- 7
Joe Mays ---------- 10 --- 0
Brad Radke -------- 41 --- 0
Jeff Weaver ------- 1 --- 0
Scott Williamson -- 18 --- 5
Eric Gagne -------- 26 --- 9
Matt Anderson ----- 13(rel)- 0
Casey Fossum ------ 20 --- 3 (plus 2 in relief)
Chuck Finley ------ 0 --- 0

Chuck Finley was probably the last guy before Jeremy Bonderman to become a regular big league pitcher without playing at the AA or AAA level. That was from a cursory glance through The Register - I'm sure there have been quite a few others.
Gitz - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#101943) #
Good list, Robert. Looking at that list I see a common theme: a lot them were college pitchers.

Oswalt
Prior (USC)
Clemens (Texas)
Weaver (Fresno St?)
Anderson (Rice)
Mussina (Stanford)
Benes (Evansville)
Milton (Maryland)
Finley

Those are the collegiate pitchers I recognize; many others on that list, no doubt, also went to college but I can't recall and am too lazy to look it up.

Now, Robert, since I am so lazy to do it, and since you're so willing and good at this kind of stuff, let's compile a list of pitchers who have the same amount of experience but who have been devoured by the majors.

As for Lyon, I have yet to hear a reason why the Jays gave up on him so soon. Did he have attitude problems?
robertdudek - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#101944) #
Correction to my list: Mussina had 21 starts at AAA, so he drops off the list.

I found some other guys while flipping through the book, among them Jamie Moyer and Jason Bere.
robertdudek - Saturday, May 24 2003 @ 08:08 PM EDT (#101945) #
I don't think leaving them in AAA or bringing them up from AA to the majors affects their long-term prospects much . Sure, there have been guys that have washed out, but it would take a lot more research to find them because I'd have to go back through all my earlier Registers to find them.

Guys with terrific stuff rarely spend a long time at the AAA level. I'd bet that 90% of star pitchers started less that 30 games at that level. The reason is that once a pitcher establishes he can handle the high minors, most teams will bring him up, even if it means struggling for awhile.

Case in point - Mark Mulder - He had 24 indifferent starts at AAA (none below that level) and then posted a 5.44 ERA in 27 starts. The A's recognized, correctly, that he would eventually adjust to big league hitters and the sooner he got the chance the better.
Game 49: Can The Jays Solve Mussina? | 39 comments | Create New Account
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