Excellent, we now have a new running joke for Batter's Box, two co-authors who disagree about the value of Chris Carpenter, revolving around the "scruffy" label. Myself, I like to discount the potential achievements of scruffy types with great prejudice...:)

Myself, I subscribe to the point of view that the Jays--or any other team--could always enjoy the contributions of a healthy and improving Carpenter *at the right price*. I'm of the opinion that the Jays' offer was appropriate under the circumstances from an organizational standpoint. There is simply too much risk surrounding Carpenter's health to offer more compensation at this time.

Was the contract offer reported anywhere? I haven't been able to find it. Was it a minor-league or major-league deal? I'm not completely familiar with roster rules, but since he was outrighted off of the 40-man did he have to pass waivers?

Was the contract offer reported anywhere? I haven't been able to find it. Was it a minor-league or major-league deal?

One of the reports I saw mentioned him being added to the 40-man roster after the Rule 5 draft. That makes it sound like it was a major league deal. I don't have anything official one that, though.

I'm not completely familiar with roster rules, but since he was outrighted off of the 40-man did he have to pass waivers?

Yes. Since he was arbitration eligible, any team that claimed him wouldn't be able to cut his pay by more than 20%, which would have still given him close to $3 million in 2003. No one claimed him because of that and he became a free agent.

Apparently Carp has accepted an offer from the Cardinals. If he was on the 60-day DL, he's exempt from the 40-man roster, which would be unaffected. This is only a mild disappointment, and not a big surprise. I think the Jays were sincere in wanting him to stay, but as I said about Sirotka, returning to one's home country can be an important factor, and I won't criticize their decisions.

Admittedly, I would be outraged and accusing him of "disloyalty" if I thought Carpenter was ever going to be an important part of a contending staff. But he's been an underachieving .500 pitcher so far, and now there are health questions in addition to a slow learning curve. Good luck to him, and maybe Toronto can beat him once or twice in the 2004 World Series.

It's kind of an odd report, isn't it? Ricciardi says the money was comparable and that there were other factors involved. Well, like what? The chance to wear a different uniform? The opportunity to swing a bat every five days? The ability to stick it to the Blue Jays for hardballing him a couple years back? Carpenter comes off sounding a little like a teenager who breaks up with his first-ever girlfriend when he realizes other girls think he's cute too. If that's the case, then he still has a little growing up to do. I'm also not a big fan of his agent, Bob LaMont, who seems to have a permanent grudge against the organization tracing back to his days representing Dave Stieb, and I can't help but wonder if that was a factor.

Anyway, it's too bad he didn't work out as a Blue Jay. I don't think the organization can second-guess itself, under either the Ash or Ricciardi regimes, for how he was treated. Unlike Escobar, whose roller-coaster Jays career has been only partly of his own making, Carpenter's failure to put it all together has to be laid mostly at his own feet and that of simple bad luck. So one of the Big Three is now gone, and a second may soon depart if JP can get value for Kelvim. Of the five-man rotation at the start of this very season (Halladay, Carpenter, Loaiza, Prokopec and Lyon), only Doc remains. Amazing.

I wonder if Carpenter wasn't afraid of moving back in the rotation with all the talks of the Jays picking up Armas and possibly Ortiz?

And if the story of him going to the Cards is true, they are a contender and he'd pretty much be gauranteed a solid shot at being in their shambles of a rotation.

I'm not too worried about it.

It would seem odd that Carpenter would fear joining a better rotation. I think it had more to do with his agent...LaMont tooks things very personally last off-season when the Jays went back on Gord Ash's promise to give Carpenter a longterm deal. LaMont even said he couldn't believe a new GM could mean such a dramatic reversal in philosophy.

As it is, Ricciardi probably saved the Jays from another disastrous big dollar deal.

If there had been a Batter's Box a year ago, we would have been all over Carp and LaMont, not necessarily for trying to get the best deal for themselves, but for "negotiating" via public mudslinging. I never understood why they thought J.P. should be morally bound to keep Gordo's foolish promises, and I was appalled that they would take their opinion to the press. Ricciardi showed admirable restraint, but it's safe to guess he wasn't pleased.

The timing of their cuddly "reconciliation," just before the trade deadline, when Chris was (temporarily) able to get people out, amused me. I wish he'd been healthy enough to have a decent first half in 2002 so the Jays could have traded him, but c'est la vie.

Perhaps the "other factors" were as simple as an ML deal from the Cards instead of the Jays' minor-league offer, or maybe they just want to raise little Sam (age 2 weeks) in the U.S.

Pardon the tangent, but we did mention Ash here a couple of times: Royce Clayton? You gotta be kidding. A panic move by the Brew Crew in response to missing out on their first choice, Neifi Perez.

I'd like to correct something I said earlier. The Star today said Toronto's offer was a minor league contract, while St. Louis' was a major league deal.

Pardon the tangent, but we did mention Ash here a couple of times: Royce Clayton? You gotta be kidding.

That wasn't Gord's only questionable input into the Brewers' personnel decisions: Milwaukee also signed star-crossed Joe Lawrence to a minor-league contract and announced they'd be turning him back into a catcher. That ought to finish off whatever's left of Lawrence's career. And signing Clayton is just weird.

Milwaukee also signed star-crossed Joe Lawrence to a minor-league contract and announced they'd be turning him back into a catcher.

I find that totally bizarre. To paraphrase Douglas Adams, it's like a man turning around and saying "and another thing..." two hours after admitting he'd lost the argument. Still, Lawrence is only 25. If he really can go back to catching, there's still time for him to squeeze three years in the majors out of his career and set him up for life. He was a hell of a hitting prospect until 2001.

They will also make Lawrence a switch-hitter, and see if he can pitch. If he did bat left, he'd be in that Mark Johnson/Greg Myers thread. One of my pen pals disagrees, and I respect his opinion, but at 2B I saw Joey mess up on balls at his feet, and fail to get to bouncers to his left and his right. He muffed a few easy pivots, too. He knew how to play the position, but he wasn't very good. You have to be extremely good defensively to justify hitting a buck eighty Canadian and 91 points below the Ordonez line (thanks, Jordan.)

Hudson makes more mental mistakes, and Joe does have a good arm, but O-Dog's range is superior and his instincts excite the fans. But that same free-wheeling makes coaches cringe, and his style doesn't fit the methodical, efficient Ricciardi/Tosca Jays. I will root for Hudson wherever he goes; I think he's delightful. But he's a better fit for a run-n-gun team, worth more to Whitey Herzog than to Earl Weaver. The revolving door continues to spin.

Milwaukee is welcome to Lawrence, a decent pitcher is worth more to this club than Husdon, and I'd "settle" for Mark Loretta, who could slide over to SS if Woody needs a day off and give the big fella an occasional rest at third.

Craig, though too scruffy to play for me (Coach could also use a barber) is a heckuva leadoff man. He nailed the Myers story on the first pitch, and showed plus speed, posting Millson's Carpenter piece about five minutes after it was published.

For some reason, I've always thought that Carpenter never really wanted to pitch here, and had made plans to leave at the first available opportunity.

I also think that his agent was demanding too much money. Carpenter wanted a front-rank pitcher's salary, despite the fact that he has never had an ERA below 4.09, has only pitched 200 innings once, and has never allowed fewer hits than innings pitched. His career ERA's are 5.09, 4.37, 4.38, 6.26, 4.09 and 5.28. I still think he can help a team, but I'm not that sad that he's gone.

Anyone want to guess when Richard Griffin will interview Carpenter and make him the subject of a Jays-bashing column?

I almost forgot - is it a given that Hudson is definitely leaving? Are we sure that J.P. doesn't like him? (Yeah, I know about the pimp comment.) Hudson at least seems to play hard, whereas Lopez occasionally takes playing in the major leagues for granted, which is I guess what happens when you're handed a job at the age of 22.

My guess is that the Jays would prefer to keep both of them and let them fight it out for the 2B job, but will move either of them to get a quality starting pitcher.

Dave, I think the famous O-Dog quote had nothing to do with him getting sent down, as he was 0-for-Florida at the time. I don't think he was being "punished" in Syracuse; there were, and are, holes in his game that he needs to work on. And I don't think J.P. dislikes Orlando, but he prefers a different kind of player, more cerebral and more consistent, especially in the middle infield.

That said, they won't just dump him; they'll only move him if they get equal value. Jordan just floated a rumour about Mark Bellhorn in another thread; that's kind of interesting. Considering the Cubs liked A-Gone, why not shop that aisle again?

Anyone want to guess when Richard Griffin will interview Carpenter and make him the subject of a Jays-bashing column?

T-minus 48 hours and counting.

I almost forgot - is it a given that Hudson is definitely leaving?

If this rumour is true, then it may very well be. (Sneaky segue.)

Completely unrelated to Carpenter, scruffiness and 2B trade rumours, but not worth its own thread: the BB "front page" article list has been shortened to the last 10 days, from two weeks. We're so prolific, it was taking too long to scroll down to the hit counter, which is ticking along quite nicely, thanks, at about 1,000 visits per week.

Another trivial site note: if you don't "do" HTML, you can use "easy formatting" -- bold, italics & underlining -- in comments, by bracketing the text you want to format with two *asterisks* ackslashes or _underlines_ respectively. That's two of the "active" characters before and **\two\** after; not one at each end, as in the example. (If I typed them twice, the example would have been formatted, you see.) For greater emphasis, try **\ before and after; the text in between will be bold and italic.

I saw on ESPN that Carpenter got $1 million from the Cardinals next year.

CNN/SI says $500,000 guaranteed -- both may be correct. Certainly not a lot more than the Jays offered, if as much.