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It's one of my favourite plays in baseball.


And it's always a big play. When an outfielder throws out someone, at a minimum he's turning an opposition base runner into an out. He's not retiring a hitter, he's removing someone who's already reached base and is therefore a threat to score. When an outfielder throws out a runner at home plate, it's the next best thing to actually taking a run off the scoreboard.

As it happens, the Blue Jays once employed the man who may well have possessed the finest outfield arm ever. Ever. In the history of the game. Not enough people understand this, and while we all knew while we were watching him play that Jesse Barfield had a remarkable arm, I don't think we fully understood quite how historically great he was.

In the updated edition of his Historical Baseball Abstract, Bill James presents the following little Data Table

                      BK   Innings  Rate
Chuck Klein          195 13,740 14.2
Jesse Barfield       162 11,547 14.0
Roy Cullenbine       100 7,268 13.8
Bob Johnson  208 15,302 13.6
Mel Ott     257 20.043 12.8
Roberto Clemente 266 20.755 12.8
Paul Waner 247 19,887 12.4
Ben Chapman 159 12,994 12.3
Dom DiMaggio 147 12,089 12.2
John Callison 175 14,997 11.7

It's simply a chart of BaseRunner Kills per 1000 innings (about 111 games). The list is confined to men born in the 20th century. This is sadly necessary. Outfielders who played before 1920 were able to throw out many, many more baserunners than a modern outfielder. With the scuffed dirty baseballs, and opposing hitters simply trying to put the ball in play, they could play much shallower than a modern outfielder. They could play shallow enough to field a ground ball and get the force at second base. Tris Speaker (449 career BaseRunner Kills, approximately 20 per 1000 innings) did it all the time. So you have to draw a line to eliminate all those outfielders active before 1920. It's too bad - one would like to know how Speaker would stack up under modern conditions (pretty damn well, I'm thinking - he was Tris Speaker, after all). Unfortunately this also counts out Bob Meusel, who was active after the Ruth Revolution but born in 1896. Meusel was universally regarded as having the best outfield arm of his time (the 1920s). Had he been listed here he would have come in third, just behind Klein and Barfield.

And as for Chuck Klein, there's something we need to know about his home field. This is the Baker Bowl in Philadelphia:

The right field line was just 270 feet from home plate, and the wall itself was 40 feet high - higher than the Green Monster in Fenway, with a 20 foot high screen on top.  The Phillies right-fielder played much, much closer to the infield than any modern outfielder. A modern right fielder takes up a position shading towards the right-centre alley - he's about 270 feet from home plate, and at least 75 feet from the wall. If Klein took up a position just 40 feet in front of the wall - well, he may have had a shorter throw to first base than the third baseman.

Klein did spend two seasons with the Cubs, and did enough to demonstrate that he did indeed have a good arm - with Chicago he threw out 20 runners in about 2145 innings - a rate of 9.32 per 1000 innings. But as a Phillie, Klein threw out 174 runners in about 11,583 innings - 15.02 per 1000 innings. There's obviously a pretty massive park illusion to account for here.

Klein's BaseRunner Kill rate as a Cub is a little bit better than Vladimir Guerrero's (Vlad is at 9.3 per 1000) and quite a bit better than Ichiro Suzuki's (7.0 per 1000). He's not quite as good as Larry Walker (10.3 per 1000). Klein had a fine arm, obviously. But Barfield's was much, much better. None of these other guys are even close to Barfield.

Only one current outfielder, by the way, active in the years since James published his book, is in a position to carve out a place on this list. That's Jeff Francoeur of the Braves, who has 56 BaseRunner Kills in just 4,632 innings. At 11.9 per 1000, he'd just edge John Callison off the Top 10.

One of the things that got me interested in looking into the subject was a passing remark made by Mike Green (I think - was it you, Mike?). Oddly enough, the subject had very little to with outfielders. Under discussion were the respective strengths and weaknesses of the Jays' two catchers, and I remember Mike (I think!) saying something to the effect that while Barajas had a better arm, Zaun was better at blocking the plate. And I thought - okay, that may be true, but for some reason I think Barajas is much better than Zaun at catching the long throw and making a play. So I was going to look into BaseRunner Kills at home plate, and find out how often each catcher was involved.

Well, I didn't do that! Sorry! I need to wait until the season is in the books, and Retrosheet gets updated! But I still wanted to find out where BaseRunner Kills happen. So I did, for the Blue Jays outfielders, anyway. And that brings us to our Data Tables!

Now it would have been fun to make these tables complete, just so you can chuckle at the very weird names you'd find at the bottom of these llists. Garth Iorg and Willie Upshaw in centre field? Yes, that happened. Domingo Cedeno and Dave Stieb in left? Who could forget!  Manuel Lee and Dave Collins in right? You're chuckling right now, aren't you.

But alas - it simply ain't worth the bother to format all those zeroes. So we'll stick with the 15 men who played the most at each of the three outfield positions.

These are the numbers for their careers as a Blue Jay. I've just sorted them by innings played. The final four columns give you which base each of these BaseRunner Kills seems to have taken place at (occasionally it's hard to decide!), along with the rate of BKs per 1000 innings.

First the left fielders:

	Player	  POS	G    INN   PO   BK  ERR  DP    PCT   1b  2b  3b	Home   BK per 1000

1 George Bell LF 963 8279 1804 68 71 10 .963 3 31 10 25 8.2
2 Shannon Stewart LF 698 5909 1346 26 23 4 .984 1 8 6 11 4.4
3 Al Woods LF 523 4290 1072 30 30 5 .973 1 15 7 7 7.0
4 Joe Carter LF 389 3201 686 15 26 2 .964 2 4 4 5 4.7
5 Reed Johnson LF 398 2516 541 20 5 1 .991 0 8 7 5 8.0
6 F. Catalanotto LF 314 2290 461 19 3 4 .994 3 6 4 6 8.3
7 Dave Collins LF 217 1709 435 16 5 4 .989 0 6 5 5 9.4
8 Candy Maldonado LF 207 1704 377 15 8 1 .980 0 7 3 5 8.8
9 Jose Cruz LF 183 1497 349 13 3 4 .992 0 3 1 8 8.7
10 Barry Bonnell LF 173 1085 263 7 4 0 .985 2 3 1 1 6.5
11 Adam Lind LF 82 668 141 5 0 0 1.000 0 3 1 1 7.5
12 Otto Velez LF 82 540 139 8 6 3 .961 0 4 0 4 14.8
13 Robert Perez LF 83 509 118 3 2 0 .984 0 1 1 1 5.9
14 Mookie Wilson LF 60 488 112 2 3 0 .974 0 1 1 0 4.1
15 Carlos Delgado LF 58 454 90 3 2 0 .979 0 2 0 1 6.6

Of the men who spent a decent amount of time in left, the two who threw out baserunners most frequently were Otto Velez in extremely limited time and Dave Collins. Dave Collins, of course, didn't throw very well at all. However, Collins had exceptional speed and outfielders with great speed often are able to throw out a great many base runners - they get to balls the runner does not expect him to reach, or they get to the ball much more quickly than the runner expects. Omar Moreno, the old Pirate and Yankee centre fielder (affectionately remembered as "Omar the Out-Maker"), had one of the weaker throwing arms of his time but in 1980 he managed more BaseRunner Kills than his teammate Dave Parker. In 1984, by then a Yankee, Moreno threw out three times as many baserunners as his teammate Dave Winfield, in considerably less playing time. Parker and Winfield, of course, were widely (and justifiably) regarded as having among the very finest throwing arms in the game while they were active. But this happens, and it's not to be mocked  - the BaseRunner Kill is a Big Play, always, and whether it's the speed of the leg or the strength of the arm that makes it possible doesn't much matter.

It's also true, of course, that runners didn't exactly hesitate before challenging the arms of Collins or Moreno.

The distribution by base for outs recorded is quite similar for left fielders and right fielders. The main difference is that left fielders don't get as many of their BaseRunner Kills at third base, which means that second base and home account for a somewhat larger proportion of their total BaseRunner Kills. This is mainly because nobody goes first to third on a ball that lands in front of a left fielder. Blue Jays left fielders have thrown out 17 men at first (5.5%), 129 at second (41.9%), 61 at third (19.8%), and 118 at home (38.3%). George Bell's numbers are quite typical - Shannon Stewart got a somewhat larger than expected share of his BaseRunner Kills at home, and I'll bet there was an outstanding relay from Alex Gonzalez on at least half of them.

And of course left fielders don't throw out nearly as many baserunners overall, because left field is where you put the guy who doesn't throw very well.

It's a little surprising to see how poorly Joe Carter does, although we may be seeing a small sample size effect as well as the fact that as he threw well enough to play right field, and posted quite decent numbers in this respect as a right fielder.) It may have been sufficient to discourage enemy baserunners from going for the extra base with the same abandon that they would have had if Stewart or Nixon was fielding the ball.

And in centre, we have:

    Player        POS    G  INN     PO  BK  ERR  DP    PCT   1b  2b  3b  Home   BK per 1000
1 Lloyd Moseby    CF 1222 10436  3087  52   46   8   .986    3  23  13  13      5.0
2 Vernon Wells    CF  945  8131  2178  45   16   9   .993    3  16  11  15      5.5
 3 Devon White    CF  650  5631  1809  33   20   7   .989    2  12  11   8      5.9
4 Jose Cruz    CF  520  4460  1219  26   14   4   .989    3  7   8   8      5.8
5 Rick Bosetti    CF  361  3109  1040  38   21   5   .981    1  13  15   9     12.2
6 Otis Nixon    CF  227  1971   595   6   3   2   .995    1   1   4  0      3.0
7 Mookie Wilson   CF  160  1405   406   6    3   3   .993    0   2   1   3      4.3
8 Barry Bonnell   CF  141  1089   314   8    9   2   .973    0   5   1   2      7.3
9 Bob Bailor    CF  105  834   266  14    9   7   .969    0   2   6   6     16.8
10 Shannon Stewart CF  109   825   221   4    5   1   .978    0   1   1   2      4.8
11 Jacob Brumfield CF   98   736   213   6    4   0   .982    0   1   2   3      8.1
12 Gary Woods    CF   61   510   160   5    1   0   .994    0   0   3   2      9.8
13 Junior Felix    CF   52   444   120   6    1   2   .992    2   2   1   1     13.5
14 Reed Johnson    CF   64   440   115   3    0   1  1.000    1   0   2   0      6.8
15 Jesse Barfield  CF   65   414   139   7    1   3   .993    0   1   2   4     16.9
This is our first encounter with the wonder of Bob Bailor, whose ability to rack up the BaseRunner Kills was quite otherworldly. Bailor spent four seasons in Toronto, and played all three outfield positions - he was more or less the regular right-fielder in 1979 and 1980, and a super-sub the rest of the time. He also accumulated a little more than 100 games in centre, although he never played more than 47 games there in a single season. Bailor had both of the ingredients that help a fielder throw out baserunners: a strong, accurate arm and good speed. He also had a couple of things going for him that Jesse Barfield, say, didn't have. One was the element of surprise - for more than half of his games as an outfielder, he was a guy filling in rather than the regular. Backups on terrible teams don't carry reputations around the league. The other factor, of course, was that the opposition during the years 1977 through 1980 had a zillion baserunners, advancing merrily from base to base. The Law of Large Numbers says you're going to throw some of them out - there were days when it was more likely than the pitcher retiring a hitter.

This also helps account for the tremendous showing given here by Rick Bosetti, who was indeed a fine defensive player who ran and threw well, and also had no shortage of runners to try to erase.

Uniquely among the three outfield positions is the fact that centre fielders throw out roughly the same number of people at second base, third base, and home plate. This is not true for the other two outfield positions, as we've already seen for the left fielders. But as a group, Blue Jays centre-fielders have thrown out 17 men at first (6.4%), 96 at second (36.2%), 87 at third (32.8%), and 82 at home (30.9%).

Finally, in right:

    Player        POS   G    INN   PO   BK  ERR  DP    PCT   1b  2b  3b  Home   BK per 1000
                                                           
1 Jesse Barfield  RF  957  7776  1987  110  41  36   .981   11  38  20  41     14.1
2 Shawn Green    RF  569  4681  1130   43  17  14   .986    4  17   9  13      9.2
3 Alexis Rios    RF  517  4202   923   35  10   8   .990    1   9   6  19      8.3
4 Joe Carter    RF  440  3775   839   33  17   5   .981    3  13  10  7      8.7
5 Raul Mondesi    RF  307  2700   583  26  17   5   .973    3  10   5   8      9.6
6 Bob Bailor    RF  250  1942   491   32  10   8   .981    2   9  11  10     16.5
7 Junior Felix    RF  185  1561   370   14  16   1   .960    1   7   3   3      9.0
8 Reed Johnson    RF  197  1475   304   12   5   2   .984    0   6   4   2      8.1
9 Barry Bonnell   RF  160  1225   285   14   7   2   .977    1   5   4   4     11.4
10 Otto Velez    RF  152  1169   286   10   5   3   .983    1   4   1   4      8.6
11 Lloyd Moseby    RF  112   939   228   8   3   0   .987    1   4   0   3      8.5
12 George Bell    RF  114   886   209    6   5   2   .977    0   1   1   4      6.8
13 Orlando Merced  RF   96   827   190   10   3   4   .985    3   4   1   2     12.1
14 Rick Leach    RF   98   600   137    3   2   0   .986    1   1   0   1      5.0
15 Hosken Powell   RF   98   597   160    2   3   0   .982    0   1   0   1      3.3
Bailor, again - while his work often gathers a bunch of small samples, in 1979 he played 113 games in RF and gunned down 15 baserunners. Barfield himself only tops that rate of eliminating baserunners once. Bailor's most remarkable performance came in one of his small sample seasons - in 1980, he threw out 6 baserunners from right field in just 208 innings, which is beyond phenomenal.

Barfield, of course, has the best career numbers of the men who played a few hundred games here. By a mile, and then some. While Barfield ran well enough to play centre field, Jesse's special gift was the strength and accuracy of his arm, and his remarkable totals on the long throws, to third and home, testifies to that. He completely blows away Raul Modesi, who did a very good job of throwing out enemy baserunners while he was a Blue Jay - Mondesi's 9.6 BaseRunner Kills per 1000 innings is excellent (slightly better than his career average of 9.0 per 1000 innings). It's better than Vlad, better than Ichiro, better than almost any active outfielder in the game today.

Overall, Toronto right fielders have thrown out 39 men at first base (9.8%), 157 (39.6%) at second. 93 (23.5%) at third , and 146 (36.9%) at home. Almost all BaseRunner Kills at first base are the second half of a double play - a runner in motion gets doubled off when the outfielder catches the ball in the air. I noticed only once a Jays outfielder throwing out the batter at first base, the old 9-3 groundout - it was Orlando Merced, by the way, although it's possible I missed another one or two. Anyway, right fielders make this play far more often, simply because they're much closer to first base - Barfield, with his combination of speed and arm strength naturally makes this play more often than anyone else as well.
 
Finally, here are the single season numbers for each outfield position. This list actually has some pretensions to completeness - it includes everyone who played at least 70 games at one of the three outfield spots in a season, and the seasons are ranked in order of Frequency of BaseRunner Kills.

        Player         POS    G     INN    PO     A   ERR  DP    PCT    1b   2b   3b  Home     BK per 1000
                                                        
2006    F. Catalanotto  LF    101   760    140   10    0    3   1.000    2    1    3    4       13.2
1986    George Bell    LF    147  1297    268   17   10    1    .966    1    6    5    5       13.1
1987    George Bell    LF    148  1267    249   15   11    2    .960    0    8    2    5       11.8
2006    Reed Johnson    LF    100   635    129    7    1    0    .993    0    1    4    2       11.0
1992    Candy Maldonado LF    129  1123    257   12    7    1   .975    0    6    2    4       10.7
1983    Dave Collins    LF    111   827    239    8    3    1    .988    0    2    3    3       9.7
1985    George Bell    LF    157  1375    318   13   11    3    .968    2    5    1    6       9.5
1984    Dave Collins    LF    106   882    196    8    2    3    .990    0    4    2    2       9.1
1981    Al Woods    LF    77   663    180    6    5    0    .974    0    3    1    2       9.0
1979    Al Woods    LF    127  1059    250    9    9    2    .966    0    7    2    0       8.5
2007    Adam Lind    LF    80   651    137    5    0    0   1.000    0    3    1    1       7.7
1996    Joe Carter    LF    115   935    165    7    7    1    .961    1    2    2    2        7.5
1977    Al Woods    LF    107   871    206    6    7    1    .968    1    2    2    1        6.9
2005    Reed Johnson    LF    118   590    134    4    1    0    .993    0    2    1    1        6.8
1980    Al Woods    LF    88   756    206    5    3    1    .986    0    3    0    2        6.6
1995    Joe Carter    LF    116   943    226    6    7    1    .971    1    2    2    1        6.4
1988    George Bell    LF    149  1271    251    8   15    1    .945    0    2    1    5        6.3
2001    Shannon Stewart LF    142  1216    257    7    5    0    .981    0    4    2    1        5.8
2005    F. Catalanotto  LF    111   761    163    4    0    0   1.000    0    2    0    2        5.3
2000    Shannon Stewart LF    136  1171    299    6    2    2    .993    0    3    1    2        5.1
2007    Reed Johnson    LF    70   503    108    2    0    0   1.000    0    1    0    1        4.0
1998    Shannon Stewart LF    110   843    207    3    5    0    .977    0    0    2    1        3.6
2002    Shannon Stewart LF    99   861    190    3    2    1    .990    0    1    0    2        3.5
1989    George Bell    LF    134  1188    257    4   10    1    .963    0    1    1    2        3.4
1990    George Bell    LF    106   922    224    3    5    1    .978    0    3    0    0        3.3
1982    Barry Bonnell   LF    98   624    157    2    2    0    .988    0    1    1    0        3.2
1999    Shannon Stewart LF    140  1207    244    3    5    1    .980    1    0    1    1        2.5


1978    Rick Bosetti    CF    135  1187    415   16    6    1    .986    1    2    8    5       13.5
1979    Rick Bosetti    CF    162  1386    463   18   13    4    .974    0   11    5    2       13.0
1983    Lloyd Moseby    CF    147  1221    399   11    7    1    .983    0    5    4    2       9.0
2005    Vernon Wells    CF    155  1358    351   12    0    4   1.000    2    3    0    7       8.8
1995    Devon White    CF    99   862    261   7    3    0    .989    0    3    3    1       8.1
2002    Vernon Wells    CF    146  1240    358   10    2    1    .995    0    3    4    3       8.1
1999    Jose Cruz    CF    97   787    248    6    3    1    .988    1    1    2    2       7.6
1998    Jose Cruz    CF    103   871    239    6    4    1    .984    1    1    1    3        6.9
1992    Devon White    CF    152  1307    443    9    7    2    .985    0    6    1    2       6.9
1984    Lloyd Moseby    CF    155  1355    470    8    4    2    .992    0    3    1    4        5.9
1981    Lloyd Moseby    CF    80   687    224    4    4    0    .983    0    2    1    1        5.8
1991    Devon White    CF    156  1384    439    8    1    2    .998    0    0    6    2        5.8
2000    Jose Cruz    CF    162  1423    407    8    3    1    .993    1    2    3    2        5.6
1987    Lloyd Moseby    CF    153  1311    294    7    6    1    .980    1    3    2    1        5.3
1985    Lloyd Moseby    CF    152  1326    391    7    8    1    .980    0    3    1    3        5.3
1993    Devon White    CF    145  1265    399    6    3    2    .993    1    2    1    2        4.7
1986    Lloyd Moseby    CF    147  1292    371    6    6    1    .984    0    3    1    2        4.6
1996    Otis Nixon    CF    125  1079    342    5    2    2    .994    1    1    3    0        4.6
2004    Vernon Wells    CF    131  1135    327    5    1    0    .997    0    2    1    2        4.4
2001    Jose Cruz    CF    133  1168    270    5    3    1    .989    0    2    2    1        4.3
1990    Mookie Wilson   CF    133  1170    351    5    3    2    .992    0    2    1    2        4.3
2007    Vernon Wells    CF    148  1279    321    5    3    0    .991    0    2    1    2        3.9
1994    Devon White    CF    98   812    267    3    6    1    .978    1    1    0    1        3.7
1982    Lloyd Moseby    CF    145  1163    358    4    2    0    .995    0    2    2    0        3.4
2006    Vernon Wells    CF    150  1290    332    4    4    3    .988    1    1    1    1        3.1
1989    Lloyd Moseby    CF    120  1051    284    3    4    1    .986    1    1    1    0        2.9
2003    Vernon Wells    CF    161  1416    381    3    4    0    .990    0    2    1    0        2.1
1988    Lloyd Moseby    CF    117   968    278    2    5    1    .982    1    1    0    0        2.1
1997    Otis Nixon    CF    102  892    253    1    1    0    .996    0    0    1    0        1.1

1983    Jesse Barfield  RF    118   873    212   17    8    4    .966    1    5    3    8       19.5
1979    Bob Bailor    RF    113   850    197   15    3    2    .986    0    5    4    6       17.6
1985    Jesse Barfield RF    147  1290    328   21    4    7    .989    1    6    5    9       16.3
1984    Jesse Barfield RF    79   648    177   10    9    5    .954    4    3    2    1       15.4
1982    Jesse Barfield RF    136   973    216   14    9    4    .962    1    2    3    8       14.4
1991    Joe Carter    RF    101   871    191   12    3    2    .985    2    4    2    4       13.8
2001    Raul Mondesi   RF    149  1318    263   18    8    2    .972    0    8    3    7       13.7
1986    Jesse Barfield RF    147  1297    335   17    3    7    .992    1    7    4    5       13.1
1987    Jesse Barfield RF    153  1250    313   16    3    3    .991    1    6    1    8       12.8
1997    Orlando Merced RF    96   827    190   10    3    4    .985    3    4    1    2       12.1
1998    Shawn Green    RF    128  1080    235   13    6    4    .976    3    4    3    3       12.0
2004    Alexis Rios    RF    108   943    217   11    2    4    .991    0    2    1    8       11.7
1980    Lloyd Moseby   RF    84   709    168   8    3    0    .983    1    4    0    3       11.3
1995    Shawn Green    RF    109   867    209    9    6    3    .973    0    3    2    4       10.4
1978    Bob Bailor    RF    102   874    229    9    7    3    .971    1    3    5    0       10.3
1996    Shawn Green    RF    127   991    254   10    2    3    .992    0    5    2    3       10.1
1989    Junior Felix   RF    86   701    186    7    7    0    .965    0    4    1    2       10.0
1992    Joe Carter    RF    123  1044    247   10    8    2    .970    1    4    4    1       9.6
1988    Jesse Barfield RF    132  1053    294    9    4    4    .987    1    5    1    2       8.5
1990    Junior Felix   RF    99   860    184    7    9    1    .955    1    3    2    1       8.1
2007    Alexis Rios    RF    147  1250    243   10    5    1    .981    0    3    0    7       8.0
1977    Otto Velez    RF    78   625    140    5    4    1    .973    1    3    0    1       8.0
2003    Reed Johnson   RF    71   532    88   4    3    1    .968    0    2    1    1        7.5
2006    Alexis Rios    RF    124   953    218    7    1    2    .996    1    2    3    1        7.3
1993    Joe Carter    RF    96   825    183    6    4    0    .979    0    2    3    1       7.3
2005    Alexis Rios    RF    138  1056    245    7    2    1    .992    0    2    2    3        6.6
2000    Raul Mondesi   RF    96   831    202    5    7    2    .967    2    2    1    0        6.0
1994    Joe Carter    RF    110   945    202    4    2    1    .990    0    3    1    0        4.2
1984    George Bell    RF    90   717    168    3    5    1    .972    0    0    1    2        4.2
1999    Shawn Green    RF    152  1333    341    5    1    1    .997    1    3    1    0        3.8
Happy birthday, Liam! You da Man!
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Mike Green - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#192204) #
Happy Birthday, Liam. 

I (and others- Thomas, I believe, was one) did give the opinion about the respective defensive strengths of Zaun and Barajas.  I am pretty sure that Zaun has been on a higher proportion of the baserunner kills (per opportunity).  I do think that Barajas is a better catcher defensively now, but that it is close (10 CS vs. 2/3 baserunner kills).



John Northey - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#192205) #
I remember the mid-80's and always hoping for fly balls to be hit to Barfield when runners were on third just for the entertainment value. You'd see it hit to him, the runner tagging then either the runner is thrown out, has a shocked look on his face looking to the outfield after nearly being thrown out, or just stands at third with an 'I'm not that stupid' look.

Those of us who watched him knew it was something special. He'd come close to double digits in double plays from RF, which is just unheard of especially once an outfielder is known to have a killer arm. 1982, his rookie season, he had 4 DP's, he wouldn't drop under that total until his NYY years (3 DP's each of his last 2 semi-full seasons). Double digits in assists every season where he played 80 or more games. Just scary good from out there. Hated to see him leave.

Thanks for the article. Shame we don't have stats for how many tried to advance for Jesse's era as that would be interesting to see too.
lexomatic - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 12:24 PM EDT (#192207) #
Question for Magpie...
are the innings listed for each player total played or total for those positions? because if it's by position the math seems screwy to me (as in every player would have a lower rate of bk/1000.

hopefully i didn't overlook methodology in the post. just asking for clarification.
lexomatic - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#192211) #
looking over it again and the numbers seem really screwy. i don't want to knock the hard work you've done so i'm curious what i'm missing... i'm going to quote examples from the above so it makes more sense...

first Moseby's career because it's easy..
1 Lloyd Moseby    CF 1222 10436  3087  52   46   8   .986   3  23  13  13    6.9
with 52 bk in 10000 innings wouldn't the rate be 5.2 and not 6.9?

or with the single season #s...
e.g.
1986 George Bell LF  147  1297    268   17   10    1   .966    1    6    5    5    18.7

How is the bk/1000 rate almost 19 when he only got 17 assists in OVER 1000 innings?

Sorry if i just gave you a headache.
NDG - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#192213) #
As JN notes, this really doesn't come close to describing Barfield prowess throwing.  The thing is EVERYONE knew about Barfield's arm.  People didn't run unless it was a no-brainer.  Yet he still managed double digit assists every year.

Bell had assists, but people ran on him quite a bit.  His arm was decent, but he didnt' set well and wasn't overly accurate.  Even Mondesi, who people claim had a great arm was still wild enough to get tested (plus still didn't have Barfield's arm strength).  I'm sure there's been some players who could throw as hard as Barfield, but none that could throw it as accurately.

Magpie - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#192218) #
the numbers seem really screwy.

Arrghh! That's the wrong column - those are BKs per 162 games (I had both). Got to fix...
westcoast dude - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 02:41 PM EDT (#192221) #
Thanks for this, Magpie. The Home Baserunner Kill separates the men from the boys. Only two have had 8 or more in a season, Barfield did it 3 times. In 1983 he threw out 8 in 118 games for his highest frequency. Alexis Rios in 2004 killed 8 in 108 games. We're not talking arms, we're talking rookies with cannons.
Magpie - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 02:46 PM EDT (#192222) #
Sorry if i just gave you a headache.

Au contraire, mon ami! The correct column is now represented, which required some reshuffling of the order (and a withdrawl of some remarks about two outfielders who played a great many partial games - Frank Catalanotto and Reed Johnson - and look much better when viewed on a per-inning basis. As they should have been all along.)

Well spotted, and it's nice to know that the numbers get looked at with some attention!
Magpie - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#192223) #
[Bell's] arm was decent but

It was fine enough when he arrived in 1983, but he injured his throwing shoulder along the way. His last two years here, the opposition was running on him at will. Plus he'd had knee problems and wasn't getting to the ball nearly as quickly as he used to.

Three young outfielders, playing every damn game, year after year, on a surface that wasn't much softer than concrete. All three of them broke down young. Who saw that coming?
Matthew E - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#192231) #
Neat.

Any interesting Mark Whiten data show up in this study?

Thomas - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#192246) #
I believe I made that point, as well (thanks for remembering, Mike), but I can't remember if it was before or after or around the same time you and others did. I share your thoughts on the overall defensive capabilities of the two catchers.

Reading this makes me wish I had been old enough in the 80's to appreciate Barfield. However, I appreciate him more after reading these data tables.

Wildrose - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#192252) #
Good stuff.  In many ways Barfield has become my favorite  Jays color man . He's  quite knowledgeable about hitting, has lots of pertinent Cito stories and has a really good sense of  humor.  Really at some point , Hughson and the CBC broadcast team should acknowledge that he's not just some random ex-major leaguer, but is indeed as you point out, perhaps the best throwing regular outfielder of the modern era.

Off course out here in the West we acknowledge this guy as perhaps the best MLB throwing outfielder ever.  Gorbous only had a cup of coffee in the show, and unfortunately we don't have his inning played data, but I estimate it at 500 innings in 1955 for an outfield kill rate of roughly 20/1000.  When you have a 71 OPS + you're not going to be around to break many  career records.

Stand at home plate and chuck that ball well over the centre field wall at the RC, now that's a gun.



 
Magpie - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#192256) #
Any interesting Mark Whiten data show up in this study?

Alas no, because Whiten only played 69 games in RF for the Blue Jays in 1990-91 and I just took the 15 guys with the most time at each of the three positions, which in RF took us as deep as Hosken Powell (98 games)  Whiten, as it happens, is the 16th man! Well, in those 69 games, Whiten had 4 BaseRunner Kills in 559.1 innings, which is 7.2 per 1000 innings. Whiten's career numbers are 11.0 per 1000 innings, which is quite good. Not quite as good as Francoeur, but better than Walker, Guerrero, and Suzuki.

Johnny Damon's career mark, by the way, is 4.4 per 1000 innings as a centre fielder, and 3.7 as a left fielder. Even worse than Shannon Stewart (4.8 as a left fielder, 4.7 as a centre fielder),. who I had always regarded as kind of the Gold Standard for futility.
CeeBee - Wednesday, September 10 2008 @ 07:57 PM EDT (#192258) #
Barfield had the best arm I ever saw, and it was a pleasure to watch. It's amazing he had any kills after the first couple of years because practically nobody tried to run on him at all.
jgadfly - Thursday, September 11 2008 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#192308) #

      Magpie... another enjoyable article ... interesting photo of the Baker Bowl (pre night games - no light standards) ... how did fans get time off work for day games ?..

     Just a minor note on your stats ... IF my memory serves me correctly (which isn't always the case) wasn't Reed Johnson playing leftfield when he threw the Orioles' Melvin Mora out when he rounded firstbase a couple of years ago.

Also some interesting tidbits on Baker Bowl... a railroad tunnel ran under the outfield ... there was a swimming pool in the basement of the clubhouse ... and in 1923 the Reuban Berman incident occur (r) ed (Chuck... one or two R's ?) ... more at  http://www.baseball-statistics.com/Ballparks/Phi/Baker.htm

Magpie - Thursday, September 11 2008 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#192312) #
Couldn't find any BKs involving Reed Johnson and Melvin Mora. He had two against the Orioles while playing LF - both times he threw out a batter who had singled but was trying to stretch it into a two-base hit. He got Tejada and Javy Lopez that way.

He had 3 BKs against the Orioles from RF. He got Kevin Millar trying to go first to third, and B.J. Surhoff at home trying to score on a sac fly (the 9-2 double play.) He also got a forceout at second base. A ball hit by Bigbie must have hung up the runner sufficiently so that when Sparky didn't make the catch in the air, he had enough time to throw to second and get the force out. The old 9-6 fielder's choice.

jgadfly - Thursday, September 11 2008 @ 05:44 PM EDT (#192319) #

  Maybe it was Tejada... he singled and Johnson threw behind him to Overbay who I believed tagged him out at  first.   Tejada (?) then turned and gave Johnson a nod after he had been tagged out.   Butterfield had apparently given both players the headsup about  the Oriole making a rather large turn when rounding first after a previous single. Maybe the out was recorded  by someone other than Overbay.  Could Zaun be involved ? 

 

SNB - Thursday, September 11 2008 @ 05:52 PM EDT (#192320) #
I'm almost positive it was Julio Lugo early in the 2006 season who rounded first a little too hard. I was sitting in the left field bleachers at the time.
Magpie - Thursday, September 11 2008 @ 06:44 PM EDT (#192322) #
I'm almost positive it was Julio Lugo early in the 2006 season

What memories y'all have!

May 24, 2006 - Tampa Bay at Toronto, 8th inning:
DEVIL RAYS 8TH: ADAMS STAYED IN GAME (PLAYING SS); ZAUN REPLACED
MCDONALD (PLAYING C ); Perez grounded out (shortstop to first);
Gathright struck out; J. Lugo singled to left [J. Lugo out at
second (left to first)]; 0 R, 1 H, 0 E, 0 LOB. Devil Rays 8,
Blue Jays 7.
Overbay was indeed at first base. The Jays fell behind 4-0 as the Rays chased the Bad Josh in the 2nd, but they rallied to take a 7-5 through. Scott Schoeneweis put two runners on in the 7th, and Jason Frasor let them score on a sac fly and a homer by... Toby Hall?  Toby Hall?

Jason, Jason...
jgadfly - Friday, September 12 2008 @ 02:06 AM EDT (#192331) #

   Grrreat !   Thanks SNB.   Thanks Magpie.   I knew something like that was in that great abyss and it's always reassuring when we can retrieve something from the blackhole of les temps perdu ... one of the reasons I love baseball  

 ... J. Lugo singled to left [ J. Lugo out at second (left to first)]; ...

Thanks even to MLB Gameday which hilighted with video a similar scenario tonight in the 8th with Scott Rolen's "single on a line drive to leftfielder Dewayne Wise ... Scott Rolen out at second, leftfielder Dewayne Wise to second baseman Alexei Ramirez to first baseman Nick Swisher. Three out "  ... Rolen was standing on first just after the tag was applied and was therefore between 1st and 2nd.

Sometimes something shiny turns into pure gold... So for scoring purposes the out must be recorded at the next base after the hit because the runner had successfully passed that base ?

  

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