Sox up 1-0 behind the 'smart ball' of hitting the ball out of the park.
I Woke up just in time to hear Tabler say there are gonna be no HR's today...
IT'S THE FINAL GAME THREAD EVER!
Be smart, be clever, Bauxites!
I think the relative inaction of Game Threads now that the chat is live is a strong indicator that people like the Game Chat feature.
I'll miss the game threads a great deal. If you're not in the chat channel, you can't scroll back to find out what you missed, if you join a game late.
I'm sure I'm not a typical user, but I much prefer the relatively reflective nature of the game thread; and of course the ability to scroll back and catch up. Mostly I don't want to have to continually monitor, but prefer to drop in and out. Of course I'm not an instant messaging user either.
I agree, I totally miss the game threads. I'm still at school taking courses, far far away from the Jays where I want to be. Game threads let me know what happened during the games, all the commentary etc etc etc etc. Can we start archiving chat?
So are Game Threads being dropped completly , or can they still be available to those that wish to use them... Sounds like theres a number of people who don't want to 'chat' or like that they can use the game threads as a catch up if joining half way through a game.
The chat idea is of course nice and techie and new and shiny for those that wish to use it but it doesnt mean that the Game Thread needs to be dropped.
Saying that, if the decision is final then making an archive of the game 'chat' would be a good touch as a number of the game wraps so far seem to gloss over the game itself.
for example see
http://www.battersbox.ca/article.php?story=20050416091651905
Just my thoughts.
The chat idea is of course nice and techie and new and shiny for those that wish to use it but it doesnt mean that the Game Thread needs to be dropped.
Saying that, if the decision is final then making an archive of the game 'chat' would be a good touch as a number of the game wraps so far seem to gloss over the game itself.
for example see
http://www.battersbox.ca/article.php?story=20050416091651905
Just my thoughts.
unclejim, dating back to the original Box 3.0 release a few months ago, we made a point of saying that we are not in the business of competing with guys like Spencer Fordin, who do traditional recap-and-quote game reports for a living; I think you'll find that virtually every Game Report here on Da Box in 2005 has been more feature-spurred-by-the-game (again, thus the "magazine" emphasis in BB's new name.)
I don't think you can launch a new service and keep the old one around and do justice to either. If the Game Threads hung around, they'd be mostly desolate, as NFH pointed out earlier, but also an excuse for people to not use the new chat feature; on the other hand, if we wanted the Game Threads to stay in place, the game chat feature would take contributors away from that. So we made a choice.
I don't know if the chats will be archived and published starting tomorrow; we've heard a couple of people say it'd be a good idea, but there certainly hasn't been an overwhelming en masse call to do so. If somebody wants to step up and volunteer to be the first person at the chat every game, log it, save the log locally and convert it to HTML, then sent that file to the Roster for archiving, there'd probably be a better chance of that happening. But I am not making that a guarantee on behalf of the site; it'd require further discussion.
I don't think you can launch a new service and keep the old one around and do justice to either. If the Game Threads hung around, they'd be mostly desolate, as NFH pointed out earlier, but also an excuse for people to not use the new chat feature; on the other hand, if we wanted the Game Threads to stay in place, the game chat feature would take contributors away from that. So we made a choice.
I don't know if the chats will be archived and published starting tomorrow; we've heard a couple of people say it'd be a good idea, but there certainly hasn't been an overwhelming en masse call to do so. If somebody wants to step up and volunteer to be the first person at the chat every game, log it, save the log locally and convert it to HTML, then sent that file to the Roster for archiving, there'd probably be a better chance of that happening. But I am not making that a guarantee on behalf of the site; it'd require further discussion.
Absolutely my favourite part of Da Box were the game threads. I would look forward to coming home after seeing a home game live and scrolling through the comments; for instance: it would be nice to hear what they were saying on TV about Zaun's accident. Instead there's nothing.
As the site now stands, I would be better off going to bluejays.com first and probably skipping Batter's Box altogether.
Aren't chat rooms, like, so 1998 anyways?
As the site now stands, I would be better off going to bluejays.com first and probably skipping Batter's Box altogether.
Aren't chat rooms, like, so 1998 anyways?
I doubt that this comment is welcome, but I have come to realise that the new Batter's Box is not as good as the old.
The highlights of the site for me, last year, were: 1. the roundup threads where I could find all the Jays news linked from one place; 2. the game threads, where I could catch up on the game as it happened (particularly useful if I started watching half way through); 3. the minor league reports.
1. is now very patchy. Many roundups don't include links, and it seems that readers have been discouraged from posting links too.
2. is about to die. The game chat is fun but not nearly the same thing, nor as useful.
3. is still there (and seems even better than before).
I'm sorry, but I haven't found that much of the new original content is particularly incisive. If you look back over the game reports, how many include serious analysis of anything? Maybe I misremember, but there used to be a bit more in the way of hard stats around here.
I enjoy Aaron's photos, and still read the minor league reports, but that's it. I know that you don't care if people leave, but Batter's Box is no longer my first web page loaded in the morning. (I haven't actually counted up, but it seems that there are less comments all round, and less posters, so I might not be alone.)
Anyway, I wish you'd rethink the repositioning of the site.
The highlights of the site for me, last year, were: 1. the roundup threads where I could find all the Jays news linked from one place; 2. the game threads, where I could catch up on the game as it happened (particularly useful if I started watching half way through); 3. the minor league reports.
1. is now very patchy. Many roundups don't include links, and it seems that readers have been discouraged from posting links too.
2. is about to die. The game chat is fun but not nearly the same thing, nor as useful.
3. is still there (and seems even better than before).
I'm sorry, but I haven't found that much of the new original content is particularly incisive. If you look back over the game reports, how many include serious analysis of anything? Maybe I misremember, but there used to be a bit more in the way of hard stats around here.
I enjoy Aaron's photos, and still read the minor league reports, but that's it. I know that you don't care if people leave, but Batter's Box is no longer my first web page loaded in the morning. (I haven't actually counted up, but it seems that there are less comments all round, and less posters, so I might not be alone.)
Anyway, I wish you'd rethink the repositioning of the site.
I also don't think the death of the game threads is going to be good for the site. It may just be early, but a lot of the time I'd read over the game thread later if I missed the game. That was perhaps my most used feature of Da Box.
Can I just also add that any members of the Box who live abroad miss out completely if the Game Threads are lost. I live in London, UK and with the time difference its not possible for me to stay up until 4am every morning to participate in the live chat.
My usual routine was to head to work in the morning, listen to the game on MLB archived and then check out the threads, and post game threads on the Box, to get opinions from other Jays fans as to how the game flowed and the reactions from things as they happened.
Like Andrew I also used to like the links posted with each post game report. Given that the 'Links' option has also vanished from this site (unless I can't find it) I'd say that there is less content being offered to the site visitor now than there was during last season. Im sure there are good reasons for this but there is no denying the site has changed in the last 12 months and personally I think its not all been change for the best. I have suspicions it may be that too many people are now involved with running the site. In its earlier days (and Ive been a visitor now for several years) less was more.
Anyways, its not my money, its not my web site. But Im sure you'd sooner hear all opinions, good and bad, as we all love this site and want it to continue to be the best place for Jays fans to hang out.
My usual routine was to head to work in the morning, listen to the game on MLB archived and then check out the threads, and post game threads on the Box, to get opinions from other Jays fans as to how the game flowed and the reactions from things as they happened.
Like Andrew I also used to like the links posted with each post game report. Given that the 'Links' option has also vanished from this site (unless I can't find it) I'd say that there is less content being offered to the site visitor now than there was during last season. Im sure there are good reasons for this but there is no denying the site has changed in the last 12 months and personally I think its not all been change for the best. I have suspicions it may be that too many people are now involved with running the site. In its earlier days (and Ive been a visitor now for several years) less was more.
Anyways, its not my money, its not my web site. But Im sure you'd sooner hear all opinions, good and bad, as we all love this site and want it to continue to be the best place for Jays fans to hang out.
Hmm another quick thought. I remember before the season that there was a statement along the lines that the Game Review would be made up from comments mostly lifted from the Game Thread... this was made as a hint that people should post sensibly to the game threads, as well as allowing the Game Recapper an easier time as they could cut and paste most of the report.
Given there is no archive planned for the live chat, Im guessing this idea has been dropped. So no comments now are going to be used for the game recaps.
Given the game recaps are also not intending to compete with the mlb.com site, what then I could ask are the point of them ?
They're not going to be a review of the game. Thats what mlb does.
They're not going to be a rundown of the fans realtime reactions during the game. These comments are not being kept.
From a reply a few posts up the thread it sounds like the idea is that they're being used as a launchpad for some specific article based on incidents in the game, but if this is the case then why not just start a thread on the article, the Game Recap part of the thread would seem to be irrelevant, and misleading. these articles probably deserve their own threads and not to be hidden inside a Game Recap.
I don't know if Coach has any of the old sites archived but it might not be a bad idea for someone to look over the site as it was say 2 to 3 years ago and see what it was that brought us to this place in the first place. Surely thats what we want to focus on when looking to take this site forwards.
Given there is no archive planned for the live chat, Im guessing this idea has been dropped. So no comments now are going to be used for the game recaps.
Given the game recaps are also not intending to compete with the mlb.com site, what then I could ask are the point of them ?
They're not going to be a review of the game. Thats what mlb does.
They're not going to be a rundown of the fans realtime reactions during the game. These comments are not being kept.
From a reply a few posts up the thread it sounds like the idea is that they're being used as a launchpad for some specific article based on incidents in the game, but if this is the case then why not just start a thread on the article, the Game Recap part of the thread would seem to be irrelevant, and misleading. these articles probably deserve their own threads and not to be hidden inside a Game Recap.
I don't know if Coach has any of the old sites archived but it might not be a bad idea for someone to look over the site as it was say 2 to 3 years ago and see what it was that brought us to this place in the first place. Surely thats what we want to focus on when looking to take this site forwards.
Gregg Zaun was taken to the hospital for precautionary measures, and the AP story says this:
Zaun was sliding into second in the ninth inning when White Sox second baseman Pedro Lopez jumped to make a relay throw to first. Lopez's knee smacked into the side of Zaun's head, which hit the ground, knocking him out cold.
Zaun came to after a few minutes, but stayed on his stomach for about 10 minutes. He was fitted with an oxygen mask and braces for his head and neck before being carted off the field and taken to a hospital for tests.
Paul Konerko also said it sounded like Zaun was "choking on something. He was gasping for air, but lifeless at the same time."
Honestly I have no interest in reading a game recap from one person's POV on Batter's Box; if I want a game recap I'll read Spencer Fordin or read the Toronto Star. The beauty of Batter's Box is you could scroll the game thread and find out what a host of colourful personalities all over the place thought, and how they reacted, to the game (and to Rod Black!).
You could come back from watching the game live and there would be new momentum to the conversation, throughout the night, on that game. That was the heart of Batter's Box, in my opinion. The Roundups were the second strength. Other than that, there's not much else for me here.
You see, I don't really come to the Internet to read. I come to scan. Scan comments, scan links to other readings that I might read quickly. I come to post comments, and reply to comments. I'm not interested in being told what to comment in a pre-arranged conversation. It seems canned.
This is probably very rude for me to go on like this, and I will stop; but do take it as a compliment that I care, and that I'm disappointed that this site now has less to offer.
You could come back from watching the game live and there would be new momentum to the conversation, throughout the night, on that game. That was the heart of Batter's Box, in my opinion. The Roundups were the second strength. Other than that, there's not much else for me here.
You see, I don't really come to the Internet to read. I come to scan. Scan comments, scan links to other readings that I might read quickly. I come to post comments, and reply to comments. I'm not interested in being told what to comment in a pre-arranged conversation. It seems canned.
This is probably very rude for me to go on like this, and I will stop; but do take it as a compliment that I care, and that I'm disappointed that this site now has less to offer.
I too agree with the naysayers. Batters Box is now inferior in almost every way to what is was before all the changes this year. I will will still continue to monitor it because it is still a good site relative to others but I feel it is no longer listening(or perhaps even caring) about it's audience. As Keith said, we might as well check other sites first before coming here. If the roster just wants to have exclusive conversations within itself, why not just say so. Colour me disappointed.
I agree with most of the posts here -- often the game threads offer insights into plays or decisions that were made during the game and are valuable to come back to later (ie. when you go -- what was Gibbons thinking?, then come here, someone's guessed it, justified it and shown the statistical reasoning why it was/wasn't a good idea, even if it's just a questionable hit and run).
I'm really going to miss the game threads. A lot of key insights were made here, that improved my knowledge of the game. And if they're not archived, I'm a lesser-informed fan.
I'm really going to miss the game threads. A lot of key insights were made here, that improved my knowledge of the game. And if they're not archived, I'm a lesser-informed fan.
I sure don't post often, but I do read a lot... rather I used to. I think Keith pretty much summed me up. I loved to read comments during the game, that were able to expand on a conversation the announcers had, or people's opinions on what they would do instead... except I usually watched the game live, and would only pop in to BB if something exciting happened. Most of my reading would be the next morning.
And secondly, I loved the round-up. One place to go for all the Jays news, and columns.
Though Da Box isn't my homepage any more, I will still visit, and pop into a chat now and again, but I don't find myself as drawn to it as I used to be.
Sorry to be negative.
And secondly, I loved the round-up. One place to go for all the Jays news, and columns.
Though Da Box isn't my homepage any more, I will still visit, and pop into a chat now and again, but I don't find myself as drawn to it as I used to be.
Sorry to be negative.
I'm undecided on the move to a chat room format. There's advantages and disadvantages to both formats, and the two really aren't that similar.
I was a chat host in a baseball forum on AOL for a couple of years back in the late-90's (yes, I was a nerd). Chat rooms can be a fun place and in some respects are like watching a game with a bunch of friends. They're a good place for banter, and if that's what a person is looking for, they're great.
On the other hand, the format makes it difficult to engage in serious discussion. When replies are limited to just two or three lines, it can be tough to properly articulate your points. Another problem is that they can get cliquey after a while and an outsider may be reluctant to jump in and participate.
The game threads as they are now tend to lack that "fun" element that you see in a chat room. That said, the potential quality of the discussion in those game threads is far superior to what you will ever see in a chat room. The ability to write in proper paragraphs and edit your text makes a huge difference in that regard. I have to say that I liked the new guidelines for the game threads that were intended to increase the quality of the discussion.
I very seldom participated in or read the game threads and whether or not I'll be a regular in the chat room remains to be seen. This change is probably not going to affect me much one way or the other, but I wanted to share my experiences with chat rooms anyway.
I certainly don't mean to pile on here but count me as someone who is extremely disappointed with the new chats. Aside from the minor league recaps, the game log was my absolute favourite feature on da box.
I've been reading this site on a daily basis since it was in its infancy and I must admit that my visits will most likely become far less frequent. It's a shame; this place is far superior to any other Blue Jays themed forum yet I feel it is moving in the wrong direction.
I've been reading this site on a daily basis since it was in its infancy and I must admit that my visits will most likely become far less frequent. It's a shame; this place is far superior to any other Blue Jays themed forum yet I feel it is moving in the wrong direction.
I would also like to see the roundup threads return, or at least the addition of some sort of daily open thread. The roundups were a great place to discuss what was happening with the team on that particular day. I miss them.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. The thing that stood out on this website from others was the game thread that offered insightful descriptions of the games. Now it is just another one of millions of "fan pages" that can be ignored. Really too bad.
All of the threads on the site going back to day one are archived. You can look up anything by clicking on 'archives' in the left side bar, or Googling it.
I can assure you that any decision on the direction of the site have been made after lots of discussion over a long period of time. The roster realizes that the Game Threads, and earlier the Roundups, were popular items, but for various reason have chosen not to continue them. Ultimately, Coach and the roster have to be happy with the site, and that isn't always going to coincide with what the visitors of the site are going to be happiest with.
I can assure you that any decision on the direction of the site have been made after lots of discussion over a long period of time. The roster realizes that the Game Threads, and earlier the Roundups, were popular items, but for various reason have chosen not to continue them. Ultimately, Coach and the roster have to be happy with the site, and that isn't always going to coincide with what the visitors of the site are going to be happiest with.
Precautionary measures? He lost consciousness and had trouble breathing. It was a lot more than precautionary. I just hope they turn up nothing on the tests.
I missed the majority of the chat today since I was at the game so I don't know if this was mentioned. Ken Huckaby is away right now tending to his wife whom I believed just had a baby. Two questions:
1) Will Huckaby be back?
2) If not, who's doing the catching?
Frank Menechino was slated as our "backup" catcher today. Man, that guy can do anything.
1) Will Huckaby be back?
2) If not, who's doing the catching?
Frank Menechino was slated as our "backup" catcher today. Man, that guy can do anything.
Speaking only for myself and not necessarily on behalf of the entire Batter's Box Roster ...
First, Original Ryan, you're right on. The key words in your post are "potential" and "intended." From my perspective, there was almost no change to the game threads after the new rules were implemented. (And it was a fair point someone made earlier that we indicated the game threads would be more incorporated into the next day's game reports, but that has been done at least somewhat regularly. Perhaps the game story reporters simply weren't finding comments particularly inspiring?)
But again, the move isn't just about game thread quality. It's about taking advantage of appropriate and available technology and focusing the site-proper on its "interactive magazine" format.
I am fully aware that the large majority of the threads I post are at best, quite a bit of puffery, at best for fun and at worst something that doesn't get read. But I think it is absolutely insane to refer to this as "just another fan site," when you have the work Magpie has done in providing print-magazine-length features, John Gizzi's insightful and entertaining "Notes from Nowhere" columns, Aaron's photos Mike Green's book-quality "Hall Watch" analysis and Craig Burley, he of The Hardball Times, posting regularly, among the work of a number of others who are really exceptional at the keyboard. And incidentally, if you're going to claim that there are too many people running the shop, keep in mind that the very best work on the site right now is being done by Rob and Mags and other "newbies."
ALL THAT SAID, let me add -- and this I think is quite likely on behalf of the entire site -- that we welcome all your comments and suggestions, including those formulated as complaints. All we ask is that the comments stay credibly polite -- they have so far -- and that they offer alternatives, preferably *new* ideas, or twists on old ones, rather than simply "go back to what you were doing, that was better."
Believe me, we've had long, long discussions, involving literally hundreds of e-mails, about every single decision that has been made affecting the site. And we take into consideration every comment posted, either publicly or via e-mail to one of us, by Bauxites across the board.
And please keep in mind that we welcome, invite and absolutely encourage "Pinch-Hits" from Bauxites everywhere.
First, Original Ryan, you're right on. The key words in your post are "potential" and "intended." From my perspective, there was almost no change to the game threads after the new rules were implemented. (And it was a fair point someone made earlier that we indicated the game threads would be more incorporated into the next day's game reports, but that has been done at least somewhat regularly. Perhaps the game story reporters simply weren't finding comments particularly inspiring?)
But again, the move isn't just about game thread quality. It's about taking advantage of appropriate and available technology and focusing the site-proper on its "interactive magazine" format.
I am fully aware that the large majority of the threads I post are at best, quite a bit of puffery, at best for fun and at worst something that doesn't get read. But I think it is absolutely insane to refer to this as "just another fan site," when you have the work Magpie has done in providing print-magazine-length features, John Gizzi's insightful and entertaining "Notes from Nowhere" columns, Aaron's photos Mike Green's book-quality "Hall Watch" analysis and Craig Burley, he of The Hardball Times, posting regularly, among the work of a number of others who are really exceptional at the keyboard. And incidentally, if you're going to claim that there are too many people running the shop, keep in mind that the very best work on the site right now is being done by Rob and Mags and other "newbies."
ALL THAT SAID, let me add -- and this I think is quite likely on behalf of the entire site -- that we welcome all your comments and suggestions, including those formulated as complaints. All we ask is that the comments stay credibly polite -- they have so far -- and that they offer alternatives, preferably *new* ideas, or twists on old ones, rather than simply "go back to what you were doing, that was better."
Believe me, we've had long, long discussions, involving literally hundreds of e-mails, about every single decision that has been made affecting the site. And we take into consideration every comment posted, either publicly or via e-mail to one of us, by Bauxites across the board.
And please keep in mind that we welcome, invite and absolutely encourage "Pinch-Hits" from Bauxites everywhere.
I also don't think the death of the game threads is going to be good for the site.
Agreed. I'll miss them.
Aren't chat rooms, like, so 1998 anyways?
Couldn't have said it better myself!
If Menechino is your backup catcher what's he doing DHing? That would be pretty embarassing if we had our pitchers batting late in the game. And I don't get Gibbons confidence in John McDonald's hitting; why is McDonald batting in the 9th and Adams (he of 2 HRs yesterday) being pinch hit for? On the bench you had:
The Cat
Hinske
Hudson
...personally, I don't like it when I go to a game and I see "the B-lineup". First, I feel ripped off; second, I don't see the point of it. Why does Gibbons give his guys days off all on the same day? Can't he rotate who gets a day off? Arguably, 3 of our better hitters were on the bench the entire game (except Hudson who had 1 AB) in a game that we lost by one run.
The Cat
Hinske
Hudson
...personally, I don't like it when I go to a game and I see "the B-lineup". First, I feel ripped off; second, I don't see the point of it. Why does Gibbons give his guys days off all on the same day? Can't he rotate who gets a day off? Arguably, 3 of our better hitters were on the bench the entire game (except Hudson who had 1 AB) in a game that we lost by one run.
Ken Huckaby is away right now tending to his wife whom I believed just had a baby.
When the camera was showing the reaction in the Jays dugout to Zaun's injury, I'm pretty sure I saw Huckaby standing on the stairs leading down to the tunnel.
As for who takes Zaun's place if he's out for a while, has Greg Myers signed on anywhere? There isn't much catching depth in the minors right now.
If Zaun is hurt...well...there's a problem. Quiroz is out for a while. Andy Dominique, anyone? The current AAA catcher, a decent hitter last year for Pawtucket but he's 29 and has only played seven games in the majors.
I wouldn't be suprised to see Crash come back. He hasn't officially retired and he hasn't been picked up by another club either. Although I could see pride being a factor not to return for him.
I too will miss the game threads.
They were my favourite part of the web site.
I doubt that I'll ever take part in the chat because I settle in for those nice HD broadcasts on my TV rather than my computer ... but I can understand why chat works well for the guys who watch games with a keyboard handy.
They were my favourite part of the web site.
I doubt that I'll ever take part in the chat because I settle in for those nice HD broadcasts on my TV rather than my computer ... but I can understand why chat works well for the guys who watch games with a keyboard handy.
When the camera was showing the reaction in the Jays dugout to Zaun's injury, I'm pretty sure I saw Huckaby standing on the stairs leading down to the tunnel.
Someone mentioned this to me. The had heard it from TSN. And I really have no idea why Menechino was DHing if he was the only other available catcher on the roster. Bit of a gamble.
Someone mentioned this to me. The had heard it from TSN. And I really have no idea why Menechino was DHing if he was the only other available catcher on the roster. Bit of a gamble.
Someone mentioned this to me. The had heard it from TSN. And I really have no idea why Menechino was DHing if he was the only other available catcher on the roster. Bit of a gamble.
Huckaby was away for a couple of days to be with his wife, but I'm not sure when he rejoined the team. If it was before the start of the game or shortly after it started, then there wasn't a problem in putting Menechino as DH (aside from the fact that he doesn't hit well enough to be one).
To add my 2 cents - I do quite enjoy the game caht feature - it appears it fosters more overall discussion - On the other hand, I do miss the ability to catch up on what I've missed a lot - I hope that in time something can be done to fix that issue
VBF,
I was at SkyDome today and Huckaby was certainly there for the whole game. Saw him at the top of the dugout during the anthems.
As for Zaun, it was really bad to witness. I don't know what they showed on TV. Most in the crowd (including myself) didn't really see how it happened since we were watching the relay throw to try to get McDonald. He honestly didn't move for 5-7 minutes. And once he did start moving it wasn't encouraging. Often he'd thrash his legs around to the point where Gibby basically had to kneel down at his feet to keep him still. His wife came out on the field about halfway through the first aid procedures. Aaron Rowand was quoted on ESPN radio reiterating that he was having a lot of trouble breathing initially...
I sure hope he's allright. He was having a solid season and his work ethic and comeback has really endeared himself to me as my favorite 2005 Jay. To have this to happen after he's finally established himself as a #1 catcher is just awful.
On the obscure jersey front, they've added the 2004 marginal game issued jerseys to the $100CAD rack. I managed to pick up a Home White #20 Estalella (I've been watching him since 1997 in Scranton when he was mentored by veteran catcher Eric Wedge).
There is also a Road Grey #20 Estalella, and a Home White #51 David Maurer. I noticed a 2003 road Grey w Blue sleeves #34 Justin Miller.
New design jerseys also on the rack (made but never issued) include Home White #35 Talley Haines (2004 Rule V Draft Pick, possibly used during spring training) and Home White #39 Bruce Chen (again was a member of the Jays in ST, traded to Baltimore in May).
I was at SkyDome today and Huckaby was certainly there for the whole game. Saw him at the top of the dugout during the anthems.
As for Zaun, it was really bad to witness. I don't know what they showed on TV. Most in the crowd (including myself) didn't really see how it happened since we were watching the relay throw to try to get McDonald. He honestly didn't move for 5-7 minutes. And once he did start moving it wasn't encouraging. Often he'd thrash his legs around to the point where Gibby basically had to kneel down at his feet to keep him still. His wife came out on the field about halfway through the first aid procedures. Aaron Rowand was quoted on ESPN radio reiterating that he was having a lot of trouble breathing initially...
I sure hope he's allright. He was having a solid season and his work ethic and comeback has really endeared himself to me as my favorite 2005 Jay. To have this to happen after he's finally established himself as a #1 catcher is just awful.
On the obscure jersey front, they've added the 2004 marginal game issued jerseys to the $100CAD rack. I managed to pick up a Home White #20 Estalella (I've been watching him since 1997 in Scranton when he was mentored by veteran catcher Eric Wedge).
There is also a Road Grey #20 Estalella, and a Home White #51 David Maurer. I noticed a 2003 road Grey w Blue sleeves #34 Justin Miller.
New design jerseys also on the rack (made but never issued) include Home White #35 Talley Haines (2004 Rule V Draft Pick, possibly used during spring training) and Home White #39 Bruce Chen (again was a member of the Jays in ST, traded to Baltimore in May).
Rob,
The Jays have purchased the contract of Dominique.
He's a big boy. ESPN lists him as 6'0" and 220. There's no way 220 is even close.
This begs the question, did we only have 39 guys on the 40 man before?
The Jays have purchased the contract of Dominique.
He's a big boy. ESPN lists him as 6'0" and 220. There's no way 220 is even close.
This begs the question, did we only have 39 guys on the 40 man before?
I'd like to add my voice to those expressing disappointment with the changes to Da Box. The chat room is full of ...well, chatter. Nothing more. Just chatter. No real discussion is possible. Yeah, it may be "fun" sometimes and the banter may sometimes work. But the overall value and interest is minimal. The Game Threads actually generated some interesting discussion from time to time.
I can't remember the Roster offering any compelling reasons for this change--just that they wanted to make it. As someone else said, what this suggests about your attitude towards your readership is ... disappointing. Too bad. I've visited very day for well over a year. Now, I'm not so sure. Really too bad.
I can't remember the Roster offering any compelling reasons for this change--just that they wanted to make it. As someone else said, what this suggests about your attitude towards your readership is ... disappointing. Too bad. I've visited very day for well over a year. Now, I'm not so sure. Really too bad.
Yes, the 40-man roster had one spot open. When Myers left, it went from 40 to 39.
I too was at the game today and it was eerie as hell when Zaun went down. It was so quiet I could hear cell phones ringing from across the stadium.
Quiroz suffered another collapsed lung. I think he had this in 2003, but I know this is the second time it's happened to him. The first time might have been last year, but I think 2004 was the year of the broken hand for GQ.
It looks like Benito Santiago got released this afternoon by the Pirates. Anybody think we should pick up the 40 year old catcher as insurance?
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&lastline=143377&id=3924
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&lastline=143377&id=3924
Wait until you guys see Dominique, his body is the opposite of a baseball body. I would suggest he is under 6 feet and about 235 lbs.
Correction: the 40-man roster was at 39 before Myers was released, or decided to become a free agent, or whatever he did. When that happened, it went to 38, and Huckaby made 39 when he was purchased from Syracuse.
Wait until you guys see Dominique, his body is the opposite of a baseball body. I would suggest he is under 6 feet and about 235 lbs.
You think that's opposite? Hack Wilson, for one, would beg to differ.
I'd have no problem with taking a chance on Santiago. If Zaun is going to be out for a while, I'd probably do it.
It's surprising Santiago is still kicking around the majors. He looked just about finished when he was here in 1997 and then had that nasty car accident the following spring. He's managed to be a pretty dependable player since then.
It's surprising Santiago is still kicking around the majors. He looked just about finished when he was here in 1997 and then had that nasty car accident the following spring. He's managed to be a pretty dependable player since then.
I was at the game today as well. I know hindsight is 20-20 but I was surprised Zaun wasn't lifted for a pinch runner when he got aboard in the 9th. Regardless, I sure hope he'll be okay, that was not a pretty sight. I didn't see what happened either, my focus was on McDonald trying to beat out the throw from 2nd.
I'd probably pick up Santiago and go with 3 catchers for now while demoting Whiteside. Given how Whiteside found a way to increase his ERA from 18 in his second appearance I really can't see a reason for him being on the club. He might be effective for one inning here and there but he won't be used that way from the looks of it. I know, old arguement around here and most would agree with it I suspect (maybe not for Santiago but for someone, anyone who might be useful).
Santiago is probably near the end but he did go 274/312/434 last year and did pretty much the same for a few years before that. Not great, but useful as a pinch hitter/2nd or 3rd catcher once Zaun is back. Might be the best available option as the starter right now though. That is, assuming he would come to Toronto and play.
Santiago is probably near the end but he did go 274/312/434 last year and did pretty much the same for a few years before that. Not great, but useful as a pinch hitter/2nd or 3rd catcher once Zaun is back. Might be the best available option as the starter right now though. That is, assuming he would come to Toronto and play.
Zaun slides the same way he blocks the plate...pretty fearlessly. Both times he slid into second this afternoon were very aggressive, sitting erect presenting as much of an obstacle to the relay as he could. First time Uribe tries to throw around him and sends it wide of first...second time Lopez leaps clear of him, completes the dp, and his body's rotation rams Gregg with a knee. Bill Madlock of course just guns it right through the runner's head. It's a dangerous game...I sure hope Zaun's alright.
It's strange how things work out in sports.
I remember during ST thinking the Jays had a lot of depth at the catcher position with Zaun, Q, Myers, and Huckaby. Now only one of those guys is playing.
As previously mentioned, I wouldnt mind seeing Santiago becoming the starter until Zaun gets back. I can't think of a better option off the top of my head (barring a trade).
I remember during ST thinking the Jays had a lot of depth at the catcher position with Zaun, Q, Myers, and Huckaby. Now only one of those guys is playing.
As previously mentioned, I wouldnt mind seeing Santiago becoming the starter until Zaun gets back. I can't think of a better option off the top of my head (barring a trade).
and it seems that readers have been discouraged from posting links too.
When? By whom? We've been encouraging them from the day we changed the name from "Roundup" to "Game Report".
Aside from not wanting to simply parrot content from other sites as our primary attraction, Moffatt was our Roundupper Supreme last year, and he no longer has a free half-hour before nine a.m. to do the job. I solicited volunteers to run roundups on a daily basis and I got one response. If that has changed and there are people with free time in the early mornings who want to rotate through roundups, please drop me a line and we can figure that out.
I can't remember the Roster offering any compelling reasons for this change--just that they wanted to make it. As someone else said, what this suggests about your attitude towards your readership is ... disappointing. Too bad. I've visited very day for well over a year. Now, I'm not so sure. Really too bad.
What moving to a chat format for the Game Threads does is alleviate part of the signal-to-noise problem on the site for us. The Game Threads were progressively noisier, and when we tried to clean them up, people complained that they liked the noise and wanted to make it. What to do? Put our feet down? Or change the format to make it more chatter-friendly?
It's hard to please everyone, which is why we have to primarily please ourselves. You can see, right here, that there are two distinct factions: those who find the chat format too noisy and chatty and without substantial baseball conversation (I can't speak from experience because I've missed most of 'em so far), and those who desire precisely that kind of format.
Now, if (and this is just me thinking aloud) we could get those two groups to split themselves along those lines -- save the chat for the Game Chat and the analysis and discussion for the Game Thread, would people be happy? Would that be a solution, or just a further problem?
1. I hope Zaun makes a quick recovery. He's more or less been our MVP for the first 6 weeks. Actually, the thought occurred to me last week that they should be giving him more days off -- I don't think his small frame can take the pounding of catching 3/4 of our games (his hitting production really tailed off in the second half last year).
2. The IRC complaints are bang on. BB game threads are (sorry, were) the _best_ place to go to find out about the ebb and flow of the game. You simply could not get that anywhere else, and I'm really going to miss it.
Then again, there's nothing stopping all of the naysayers (because there seems to be a lot of us) from continuing on the game thread tradition and thumbing our noses at the IRC channel.
2. The IRC complaints are bang on. BB game threads are (sorry, were) the _best_ place to go to find out about the ebb and flow of the game. You simply could not get that anywhere else, and I'm really going to miss it.
Then again, there's nothing stopping all of the naysayers (because there seems to be a lot of us) from continuing on the game thread tradition and thumbing our noses at the IRC channel.
At least the Jays bullpen seems strong this year.
Welcome back to the big leagues, Kerry Ligtenberg!
Jacko, that sounds great. Let us know where the new site is and I'm sure a lot of us will stop by during game time.
NFH - I understand the signal to noise problem but I think the roster is generally missing the point of these complaints - All I want (and I think this is the wish of most) is to be able to quickly catch up on what we missed if we show up late for the game - Even the "noisiest" game threads did an excellent job of catching the nuances of the game thus far and the fact that it is gone simply means we can't go to Batter's Box to catch up on the little things in the game we missed (for instance, in Friday's game a Game thread would be a perfect place to find out why Bush was gone after 79 pitches). The disappointing part of having to go elsewhere to catch up (another message board I guess) is that even with the noise problem the roster is seemingly quite concerned about, the thoughtful in-game analysis was far superior to anything else I have seen on the web
So I guess what I am interested in knowing is if there are any solutions to the problem of not being able to catch up on chat previously recorded - this was answered partially earlier in the thread with the comments that someone could log the chat - However, am I right in assuming that wouldnt be available until after the game? - if so, that doesn't really alleviate the concerns
I am very much grateful for all the work the roster puts into this site and have enjoyed the discussion and analysis on this site since its creation and understand some things just conflict too much with the direction that this site is going - I have been in 2 of the 3 chats thus far and enjoy them as well and will continue to enjoy the Box - Moreover, the game reports have been truly excellent this year and I look forward to reading them each morning (I for one prefer them to the links based game reports)
I just want to be able to catch up on what I missed if I cant see part of the game - and I think a lot of people want to do that too - If that's just not a service Batter's Box can or is willing to offer (because of the noise issue) than I guess it isn't the end of the world - but it sure is disappointing
So I guess what I am interested in knowing is if there are any solutions to the problem of not being able to catch up on chat previously recorded - this was answered partially earlier in the thread with the comments that someone could log the chat - However, am I right in assuming that wouldnt be available until after the game? - if so, that doesn't really alleviate the concerns
I am very much grateful for all the work the roster puts into this site and have enjoyed the discussion and analysis on this site since its creation and understand some things just conflict too much with the direction that this site is going - I have been in 2 of the 3 chats thus far and enjoy them as well and will continue to enjoy the Box - Moreover, the game reports have been truly excellent this year and I look forward to reading them each morning (I for one prefer them to the links based game reports)
I just want to be able to catch up on what I missed if I cant see part of the game - and I think a lot of people want to do that too - If that's just not a service Batter's Box can or is willing to offer (because of the noise issue) than I guess it isn't the end of the world - but it sure is disappointing
What moving to a chat format for the Game Threads does is alleviate part of the signal-to-noise problem on the site for us. The Game Threads were progressively noisier, and when we tried to clean them up, people complained that they liked the noise and wanted to make it. What to do? Put our feet down? Or change the format to make it more chatter-friendly?
I can't for the life of me see how the S/N ratio of IRC game chatter will be higher than it was in the game threads. It will almost certainly be worse.
Now, if (and this is just me thinking aloud) we could get those two groups to split themselves along those lines -- save the chat for the Game Chat and the analysis and discussion for the Game Thread, would people be happy? Would that be a solution, or just a further problem?
What problem are you trying to solve here?
People _liked_ the combination of insight and gut reactions from the game threads (at least I did). Even when they got a little loony and offtopic, they were great. It was all part of the charm, if you ask me. Was there a sizable contingent of people who hated that aspect of the game threads?
Zaun's injury is a perfect example of why the game threads should be preserved (and ironically enough, is what got people off IRC today). Many fans are concerned about what happened to him, and the game thread is (was?) the best source of information for something like this.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed about Zaun. It sounds like something really bad has happened. And just when he was establishing himself as a quality catcher. Life isn't fair.
I don't know anything about Dominique, other than that he isn't hitting at Syracuse right now.
I don't know whether Myers would want to come back, or whether Santiago has anything left at all. But the Jays, at the very least, will need to sign somebody to catch for Syracuse (unless they can move everybody up one notch to cover).
I don't know anything about Dominique, other than that he isn't hitting at Syracuse right now.
I don't know whether Myers would want to come back, or whether Santiago has anything left at all. But the Jays, at the very least, will need to sign somebody to catch for Syracuse (unless they can move everybody up one notch to cover).
Having seen Dominique last Wednesday, I'd have to concur with this statement.
Jacko, that sounds great. Let us know where the new site is and I'm sure a lot of us will stop by during game time.
I don't think I need to start my own site. So far, the game threads have been running in parallel with the IRC game chatter. Is that going to change any time soon?
You've got a great thing going here. However, your "take my ball and go home" attitude is completely uncalled for.
Sorry Mick, I appears that I can't read. It appears that Item #2 said "last game thread ever."
Baseball's not hockey, but given the recovery time on concussions we see from guys in the NHL, I'm pretty concerned that we won't see Zaun for at least a month. I'm assuming he was concussed, given that he lost consciousness. Terrible injury, and a real shame that he's suffered it now.
Would the roster be willing to consider keeping the game threads around as well as the chat?
I can't for the life of me see how the S/N ratio of IRC game chatter will be higher than it was in the game threads. It will almost certainly be worse.
Right, the way people complained that they wanted them to be. But IRC chatter is far more transitory than the forever-archived threads. When people want to denigrate "menistinko" and vent and the like, it's there for an instant and then gone, and those of us who have to spend so much time policing the current Game Threads to try to keep them readable and workable (with ever-diminishing results -- have you been reading them this year, Jacko?) can relax in that the junk is not cluttering up the site.
It's not that they get "looney and offtopic", it's that they got really crappy, and our attempts to police them and keep them readable has met with sizable resistance.
We wanted to be able to use the Game Threads as the basis for the daily Game Reports. This has been barely possible, if at all.
Major problem: the strong GT contributors of the past have been largely silent. I've had a number of e-mails in which people have lamented having to compete with the garbage that's been showing up, and saying that basically the noise is why they don't post anymore.
I don't know whether I was part of the problem or not, and I don't want to be presumptiupous, but I'd probably suggest that splitting up the game threads into the IRC ChatterBox and the "informative" game thread will just end up providing two unsatisfactory forums, rather than improving anything.
I'd also offer the opinion that as long as posters continued to post informative analysis on the original game threads, regardless of the amount of "chatter", then the chatter really wouldn't matter (no rhyme intended).
But I guess if posters were actually refraining from posting analysis because of the chatter (although I'm not sure why they would), then there is a problem.
I'd also offer the opinion that as long as posters continued to post informative analysis on the original game threads, regardless of the amount of "chatter", then the chatter really wouldn't matter (no rhyme intended).
But I guess if posters were actually refraining from posting analysis because of the chatter (although I'm not sure why they would), then there is a problem.
I reckon we'll here moe about Zaun tomorrow afternoon. They're probably lining up CT scans etc. I wish him well and remain optimistic that he's going to be ok in a few days.
On this discussion of site direction. Maybe I'm deaf and dumb - you said it Lefty - but signal to noise ratio has never been so quite. I think thats a hyper sensitive reason.
On this discussion of site direction. Maybe I'm deaf and dumb - you said it Lefty - but signal to noise ratio has never been so quite. I think thats a hyper sensitive reason.
I'm going to bed and won't be online much tomorrow, if at all. But I do want to continue having this conversation. If I don't respond to something, please feel free to e-mail me about it. My free time ain't like it used to be.
But I guess if posters were actually refraining from posting analysis because of the chatter (although I'm not sure why they would), then there is a problem.
At least a couple have said they were tired of being drowned out.
OK, going to bed for real now.
Major problem: the strong GT contributors of the past have been largely silent. I've had a number of e-mails in which people have lamented having to compete with the garbage that's been showing up, and saying that basically the noise is why they don't post anymore.
This is very true.
When I visit a game thread, I come hoping to see some of your lunatic ravings (and the lunatic ravings of the other usual suspects from BattersBox). Obviously, you haven't had much time for that sort of thing lately.
I never realized how much effort went into policing game threads. If it was consuming more and more time, and still becoming less and less useful, then I can understand why they were dropped. I was under the mistaken impression that the user registration system would help quite a bit with keeping the noise down.
uglyone, that's exactly right. Going back to the comment I made earlier in this thread:
"I don't think you can launch a new service and keep the old one around and do justice to either. If the Game Threads hung around, they'd be mostly desolate, as NFH pointed out earlier, but also an excuse for people to not use the new chat feature; on the other hand, if we wanted the Game Threads to stay in place, the game chat feature would take contributors away from that. So we made a choice."
... we knew we had to choose one or both would be, as you pointed out, unsatisfactory. We don't know for sure this was the right way to go, but we'll find out!
"I don't think you can launch a new service and keep the old one around and do justice to either. If the Game Threads hung around, they'd be mostly desolate, as NFH pointed out earlier, but also an excuse for people to not use the new chat feature; on the other hand, if we wanted the Game Threads to stay in place, the game chat feature would take contributors away from that. So we made a choice."
... we knew we had to choose one or both would be, as you pointed out, unsatisfactory. We don't know for sure this was the right way to go, but we'll find out!
One last thing.
While the game threads have become more noisy and less insightful this year, they are still _miles_ ahead of anything else on the internet.
Since the threads are going away, some people might be looking for a non-IRC outlet. Baseball Think Factory (nee Baseball Primer) still posts daily game threads:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primer/gamechatter/
While the game threads have become more noisy and less insightful this year, they are still _miles_ ahead of anything else on the internet.
Since the threads are going away, some people might be looking for a non-IRC outlet. Baseball Think Factory (nee Baseball Primer) still posts daily game threads:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primer/gamechatter/
First a disclaimer - I do not speak for the Roster. I speak for myself and myself alone, always. I am honoured and flattered to have been invited to come on board, but I will always - well, at least for some time still to come - feel like a Guest in Coach's House. We clear?
we've had long, long discussions, involving literally hundreds of e-mails
Way more than that. Way more. My God. I've got more than 2000 internal Box e-mails since being called up to the Roster early this year. Would you like to know how many involved the Game Threads? Too damn many, I promise you. Especially since as far as I could tell the whole bloody debate could be summarized like this:
-- They're full of crap, fanboy garbage; they're an eyesore.
-- But at least it keeps all the crap in one place, rather than spreading it all over the site.
That, by the way, was more or less the admittedly lame and half-hearted argument I offered for keeping the Game Threads (if you're wondering what side of the debate I tended to take.)
Every now and then, we'd actually get a pretty decent Game Thread and the argument would die down. But sooner or later, it would raise its ugly head again...
I write a Game Report every Friday night, and I actually started out dutifully trolling through the Game Thread looking for material to use. Yeah, you're right - we figured the prospect of being quoted in the Game Report might improve the quality of the Threads. But me, I just got tired of trudging through "Schoeneweis really sucks" and "What a crappy swing by Vernon" and "Gibbons is as dumb as a post." Life is too short to deal with that.
And secondly, I loved the round-up. One place to go for all the Jays news, and columns.
I liked them too, but then I always like it when someone else does the heavy lifting for me.
You'll notice I could never be bothered to actually make one myself. Granted, this is partially because there was actually nothing to round up during the wee small hours of the morning when I was actually writing my Friday Game Report.
But even if that weren't the case, I don't think I would have gathered all thosee links together.
I mean, what the hell - if I know how to bookmark mlb.com and ESPN, I'm sure everybody else does too. And I do not much like writing HTML code - and every time I post a link, every damn time, I still have to refresh my memory as to how to do it. Life is too short.
I can't remember the Roster offering any compelling reasons for this change
There's no doubt a disconnect between what the Roster wants this site to be and what the readership either thinks it is or wants it to be.
It's not something I think about, to be honest. Coach and the others who were Present at the Creation tend to worry about these issues much more than I do. I'm new here, for one thing. And I'm like a Designated Hitter. They got me here so I can step up to the plate from time to time and take a big swing at something. That's what I figure, anyway. And that's what I like to do. I have opinions on these issues, but I don't feel nearly as strongly as many of the other Roster members.
For the excellent reason that I don't have nearly the investment in this site that the other guys have. Not by a long shot. Nor do I have the same level of hope and vision and ambition for this site. Not yet anyway - I'm still a new guy.
That said, I can tell you this.
No one connected with this place regards it as a Blue Jays fan site. I've noticed that. It is true that most Roster members - not everybody, but most of us - do cheer for the Blue Jays. Nevertheless - this is not a fan site. This is not a Blue Jays forum.
Much of the Roster thinks this site spends way too much time and space on the Toronto Blue Jays. And is always looking and thinking about ways to go beyond that...
No one much wants it to be a public utility, either. If we're going to do all this work and not get paid for it, we're going to indulge ourselves. We're going to do what interests us, and write about whatever we feel like writing about.
OK, that sounded pretty arrogant and self-righteous, didn't it?
Sorry about that, but it's late, I'm tired, and I have two other jobs besides this one. This is for fun.
I don't know if the chats will be archived and published starting tomorrow
Honestly, now that it's started, I just can't see that. We kicked around the idea a little before it started, and I know made inquiries of our Computer Wizards as to whether this was techincally feaible or possible or whatever.... But now that we've seen it... I can't see the point myself.
Granted, I was only around for chat during the Friday night game. I was at the ball park yesterday and today. But just off Friday, what goes on in the chat room does not lend itself to being archived and reprinted. It is soaking up the real time responses - the cheers and the boos and the gripes and the gossip - which of course is exactly what it was intended to do.
I am inclined to agree with those of you who think that we do need some outlet for more reflective and analytical responses while the game is in progress. There wasn't enough of it in the Game Threads to keep them going, but I live in hope eternal anyway, and I agree that a convenient outlet should be available. Not sure what form it should take, myself.
But this is all, after all, a work in progress. We'll see how it goes, and see how we like it.
Mags, if'n all yer gonna do is DH, you better go .340/40/130 for us this year, fer damn sure.
Well put, overall, but if I may make one tiny amendment to this:
There's no doubt a disconnect between what the Roster wants this site to be and what the readership either thinks it is or wants it to be.
I think that really should read, "There's no doubt a disconnect between what the Roster wants this site to be and what some small, but very vocal part of the readership either thinks it is or wants it to be."
No doubt - but then there is always a disconnect between the thing-in-itself and the thing as we perceive it to be. As we all learned from studying German metaphysics.
Between the Idea and Reality... falls the shadow.
So that wasn't over the top? Rob's not going to start calling me Rent-A-Rant tomorrow?
I've got more than 2000 internal Box e-mails since being called up to the Roster early this year.
2000? Ha! Maybe in one month. I have 685 "conversations" archived since January 22 in GMail, with about eight or nine messages per... that's 5500 messsages, easy. Here's one with 61 messages in the debate, another with 63, then another 61...etc.
And I agree with most everything Magpie said here. (Though if he's the DH, I suppose that makes me DeWayne Wise in his Rule 5 year.) Especially "No one connected with this place regards it as a Blue Jays fan site...This is not a Blue Jays forum." That's key right there.
Ok, one last thing.
Bat-Girl has started running game threads here:
http://www.quicktopic.com/31/H/4ecmKfcwt6f
The main thing that "GameThreadites" are unhappy about is the fact that there is no record of the IRC chats for those who missed the game.
The main thing that the roster is unhappy about is low S/N game threads cluttering up their site.
The solution (I think) is to move the game threads off the site, but to something more permanent than IRC.
Would it not make some sense to direct interested people to game threads at QuickTopic instead? I'd rather not compete with hordes of fans from the "other side" in the Baseball Think Factory game chatter threads. I'll even volunteer to make sure the thread gets seeded each day there is a game. The only thing I would ask of Batters Box is to provide a link to the threads each day so that people know where to go to find them.
Bat-Girl has started running game threads here:
http://www.quicktopic.com/31/H/4ecmKfcwt6f
The main thing that "GameThreadites" are unhappy about is the fact that there is no record of the IRC chats for those who missed the game.
The main thing that the roster is unhappy about is low S/N game threads cluttering up their site.
The solution (I think) is to move the game threads off the site, but to something more permanent than IRC.
Would it not make some sense to direct interested people to game threads at QuickTopic instead? I'd rather not compete with hordes of fans from the "other side" in the Baseball Think Factory game chatter threads. I'll even volunteer to make sure the thread gets seeded each day there is a game. The only thing I would ask of Batters Box is to provide a link to the threads each day so that people know where to go to find them.
I just want to comment:
I don't think the game threads were nearly as bad as you guys make them out to be. One post like "Gibbons is dumb as a post" usually sets off a shitstorm of whining and bitching from the above, but really the "Menestinko" posts are VERY much in the minority. Most Game Threads get 150+ posts, and while not all of them are incredibly thought-provoking, the amount of them that are absolutely useless are pretty low, I think. I would say that posts like "Schoeneweis sucks" and "Why is Menestinko playing" comprise less than 3% of the total game thread posts.
I think it's wrong to give up on the game threads. I loved the rule changes you made at the start of the season, but you didn't link to the rules at the start of every thread like I suggested, and I don't think you enforced them either.
Really, man. Just enforce the new rules -- fuck, introduce some NEW rules if you want to, but don't get rid of the game threads completely.
Just my opinion.
I don't think the game threads were nearly as bad as you guys make them out to be. One post like "Gibbons is dumb as a post" usually sets off a shitstorm of whining and bitching from the above, but really the "Menestinko" posts are VERY much in the minority. Most Game Threads get 150+ posts, and while not all of them are incredibly thought-provoking, the amount of them that are absolutely useless are pretty low, I think. I would say that posts like "Schoeneweis sucks" and "Why is Menestinko playing" comprise less than 3% of the total game thread posts.
I think it's wrong to give up on the game threads. I loved the rule changes you made at the start of the season, but you didn't link to the rules at the start of every thread like I suggested, and I don't think you enforced them either.
Really, man. Just enforce the new rules -- fuck, introduce some NEW rules if you want to, but don't get rid of the game threads completely.
Just my opinion.
I think Jacko's solution makes a lot of sense - but the linking is key - because its only worthwile if a community develops
Hey all -
I've been reading this site probably since near the beginning and I've really enjoyed all the work that has been put on to the site. Before this site, it was very difficult to find intelligent discussion on the Blue Jays for a guy in LA.
To be honest, Magpie's comment about Batter's Box not being a predominantly Blue Jays site was news to me. Maybe I didn't read something in the "About" or "FAQ" sections or missed something upon the site's relaunch. I guess I should've noticed it with all the diverse articles and roundups of other divisions and articles on the goings-on within baseball outside of Toronto. And while there are many members of the Roster that aren't Jays fans, I still saw this as a predominantly Blue Jays site with some other coverage of a more general interest.
But I saw Batter's Box as a Blue Jays fansite without the fanboyism. And I did like that. But while the writing on this site is terrific, I guess I do look for more Jays coverage. To be honest, I rarely read the non-Jays related articles. So I pretty much only look at Roundups/Game Reports, Game Threads, Blue Jays-related interviews, and all the minor league reports.
And while I liked the Game Threads, there was a lot of signal/noise. But perhaps more stringently enforcing the rules would be better than eliminating them completely. I understand if none of the busy Roster members wanted to spend time policing it as you already have.
So if the Roster wants Batter's Box to be a more well-rounded site, that's understandable. But I, for one, do come here, more or less, only for the Jays-related content because if I'm interested in the Dodgers, I'd go to Dodger Thoughts. If I wanted thoughtful Red Sox insight, I could visit SoSH. And I still enjoy most BTF discussions even though I almost never post there. And there's good stuff at BPro and THT (which I appreciate the efforts of guys like Robert and Craig over there).
So as long as the Blue Jays related content is still here in abundance, I'll still visit and sporadically give my two cents (which is usually what my opinions are worth anyway). The Jays coverage here is still the best anywhere and while I don't want this to be like ESPN or other fanboy message boards, I personally liked the apparent Jays-centeredness of the site. I first came here because it was "baseball from a Toronto (or later Canadian) perspective."
But in any case, keep up the good work. I do appreciate the work put in by everyone affiliated with the site.
I've been reading this site probably since near the beginning and I've really enjoyed all the work that has been put on to the site. Before this site, it was very difficult to find intelligent discussion on the Blue Jays for a guy in LA.
To be honest, Magpie's comment about Batter's Box not being a predominantly Blue Jays site was news to me. Maybe I didn't read something in the "About" or "FAQ" sections or missed something upon the site's relaunch. I guess I should've noticed it with all the diverse articles and roundups of other divisions and articles on the goings-on within baseball outside of Toronto. And while there are many members of the Roster that aren't Jays fans, I still saw this as a predominantly Blue Jays site with some other coverage of a more general interest.
But I saw Batter's Box as a Blue Jays fansite without the fanboyism. And I did like that. But while the writing on this site is terrific, I guess I do look for more Jays coverage. To be honest, I rarely read the non-Jays related articles. So I pretty much only look at Roundups/Game Reports, Game Threads, Blue Jays-related interviews, and all the minor league reports.
And while I liked the Game Threads, there was a lot of signal/noise. But perhaps more stringently enforcing the rules would be better than eliminating them completely. I understand if none of the busy Roster members wanted to spend time policing it as you already have.
So if the Roster wants Batter's Box to be a more well-rounded site, that's understandable. But I, for one, do come here, more or less, only for the Jays-related content because if I'm interested in the Dodgers, I'd go to Dodger Thoughts. If I wanted thoughtful Red Sox insight, I could visit SoSH. And I still enjoy most BTF discussions even though I almost never post there. And there's good stuff at BPro and THT (which I appreciate the efforts of guys like Robert and Craig over there).
So as long as the Blue Jays related content is still here in abundance, I'll still visit and sporadically give my two cents (which is usually what my opinions are worth anyway). The Jays coverage here is still the best anywhere and while I don't want this to be like ESPN or other fanboy message boards, I personally liked the apparent Jays-centeredness of the site. I first came here because it was "baseball from a Toronto (or later Canadian) perspective."
But in any case, keep up the good work. I do appreciate the work put in by everyone affiliated with the site.
"There's no doubt a disconnect between what the Roster wants this site to be and what some small, but very vocal part of the readership either thinks it is or wants it to be."
This is a variation of what's been an ongoing debate as long as I've been reading the site, and one that will doubtless continue long after I stop. The voices on the one side seem to change as some people move on, but the chorus from the other is still the same. I don't necessarily know that your statement is correct though Mick. Much as you may want to think it's a small, very vocal part of the readership who like the game threads, a look back at what draws the most comments would suggest it's otherwise. The game threads consistently blow away all of the other features in terms of drawing comments. This isn't necessarily an indicator of the value of what's written in the threads-the game thread comments probably have the lowest Value Over Replacement Comment, but it's clear that they're well liked by a big chunk of the readers, and particularly a big chunk of the posters. This thread indicates as much-the split between Roster/non-Roster views seems to be pretty evident.
I don't really get the issue myself. NFH has raised the point that some of the preferred posters have emailed him saying that the threads have too much noise. Moving them to IRC obviously won't fix that. If anything, it'll lower the signal/noise ratio. It seems to me that you're left with a solution that doesn't really address the stated problem, and has the additional effect of irritating those who do enjoy the game threads. It seems very much like a cutting off your nose to spite your face type thing.
If game threads aren't what the "interactive magazine" is all about, then so be it. As has been made abundantly clear, this is the Roster's forum (not in the internet discussion forum sense, but in the place for presenting their views sense). You guys pay the bills; you guys make the calls. If the content without game threads isn't enough to draw readers (which may not even be the goal here), I'm sure you guys will deal with it accordingly. For me, I'll continue to at least peruse the place as long as Magpie is writing for you, but I'll also miss reading the game threads.
Ahh back from my "vacation".
I really think some of the posts about the "crap" in the game threads are completely overblown. I've sat through quite a few of them and for the most part there is a good amount of quality discussion, maybe a few comments, but I think for the most part you are overgeneralizing.
I mean when someone comes and says "What the heck is Gibbons thinking, why is Johnny Mac replacing Adams at the Plate?" Thats not a swipe against Gibby or MacDonald. Thats more of asking "Why isn't Adams getting the ABs in this situation? It would be great for his confidence". Thats not the same as saying "McDonald Sucks", but I can see if I was glancing through a game thread I could see how you might think that is just Random noise.
Ever since the new rules have came in, I've noticed the gamethreads are quite clean and most of the comments, if taken in proper context are meaningful and aren't taking away from the site.
As far as too much Blue Jays content on this site... Huh? I honestly thought this was more intented to be a Jays "Interactive Magazine", We've got JP stopping by, Gv27, I mean really what other focus did the staff intend for the site to be used as? I know we focus on Minor Affilates of the Jays as well, but those can just be lumped in As "Jays talk".
Apart from the Occasional Hall of names thread (which doesn't get that much action), Hall Watch, I don't see many "non-jay" threads. So Staff here please tell us what other focus you want.
I really think some of the posts about the "crap" in the game threads are completely overblown. I've sat through quite a few of them and for the most part there is a good amount of quality discussion, maybe a few comments, but I think for the most part you are overgeneralizing.
I mean when someone comes and says "What the heck is Gibbons thinking, why is Johnny Mac replacing Adams at the Plate?" Thats not a swipe against Gibby or MacDonald. Thats more of asking "Why isn't Adams getting the ABs in this situation? It would be great for his confidence". Thats not the same as saying "McDonald Sucks", but I can see if I was glancing through a game thread I could see how you might think that is just Random noise.
Ever since the new rules have came in, I've noticed the gamethreads are quite clean and most of the comments, if taken in proper context are meaningful and aren't taking away from the site.
As far as too much Blue Jays content on this site... Huh? I honestly thought this was more intented to be a Jays "Interactive Magazine", We've got JP stopping by, Gv27, I mean really what other focus did the staff intend for the site to be used as? I know we focus on Minor Affilates of the Jays as well, but those can just be lumped in As "Jays talk".
Apart from the Occasional Hall of names thread (which doesn't get that much action), Hall Watch, I don't see many "non-jay" threads. So Staff here please tell us what other focus you want.
"There's no doubt a disconnect between what the Roster wants this site to be and what some small, but very vocal part of the readership either thinks it is or wants it to be."
I'm not usually vocal about anything, but I have to agree with what seems to be the majority of the posters here. I found the game threads to be, while certainly not perfect, by far the best place to 'chat' about Blue Jays baseball on-line. I started to get back into baseball in 2002 and this site has reminded me of everything I forgot about the game and further taught me things I never knew. A large part of that was a result of the intelligent discourse in the game threads. While I rarely posted in them I always read them.
Granted, as the site grew in popularity there were more posts from people who clearly have a tenuous grasp on baseball knowledge. However, and speaking for myself, I found ignoring them quite simple. I find ignoring someone in IRC far more difficult, though often more necessary.
Part of the allure of the message board is that, unlike IRC, it's not real time; people have a chance to reflect on their thoughts instead of simply typing and reacting to any given situation. I'm not entirely clear why the Roster felt that the reactive, real-time nature of chat was a good thing.
In reading the "Batter's Box Announces New Game Chat Feature" it's clear to me that removing the Game Threads is part of an effort to generate more discussion in the other articles. I'm not sure if that's going to work, in part because I find there are far, far too many articles. Nine last Monday and then at least four more Tuesday to Friday. Tough to keep up.
Overall I think this is a great site and I don't plan on going anywhere. Merely my thoughts.
I'm not usually vocal about anything, but I have to agree with what seems to be the majority of the posters here. I found the game threads to be, while certainly not perfect, by far the best place to 'chat' about Blue Jays baseball on-line. I started to get back into baseball in 2002 and this site has reminded me of everything I forgot about the game and further taught me things I never knew. A large part of that was a result of the intelligent discourse in the game threads. While I rarely posted in them I always read them.
Granted, as the site grew in popularity there were more posts from people who clearly have a tenuous grasp on baseball knowledge. However, and speaking for myself, I found ignoring them quite simple. I find ignoring someone in IRC far more difficult, though often more necessary.
Part of the allure of the message board is that, unlike IRC, it's not real time; people have a chance to reflect on their thoughts instead of simply typing and reacting to any given situation. I'm not entirely clear why the Roster felt that the reactive, real-time nature of chat was a good thing.
In reading the "Batter's Box Announces New Game Chat Feature" it's clear to me that removing the Game Threads is part of an effort to generate more discussion in the other articles. I'm not sure if that's going to work, in part because I find there are far, far too many articles. Nine last Monday and then at least four more Tuesday to Friday. Tough to keep up.
Overall I think this is a great site and I don't plan on going anywhere. Merely my thoughts.
Magpie's comment about Batter's Box not being a predominantly Blue Jays site was news to me.
It was news to me, too - well, not entirely - but there it is. Because there are so many Jays fans on the Roster, because a good number of us are based in Toronto, there will always be a lot of Jays stuff. Maybe it's more a question of not wanting to be defined as a Jays fan site. Not wanting to be limited in that way. Or any other way.
The game threads consistently blow away all of the other features in terms of drawing comments.
I can tell you this - no one cares about the quantity of comments. This not a commercial, ad-driven site. No one worries about the number of readers or page hits or stuff like that.
I find there are far, far too many articles.
Everyone agrees. We are trying to organize things a little better.
Just enforce the new rules
It's a gig no one wants. No one. I'm glad I don't do it. No one wants to be a cop, no one wants to send out warnings, no one wants to kick people out. Lots of Sturm and Drang about that, as well. And because almost all of the objectionable stuff came in the Game Threads...
An "all article" style site is fine, say, Hardballtimes.com is a decent site I check out from time to time.
But the game threads are the kind of thing that keep me glued to the batters box.
Ultimately, it's your site, and you're free to do with it as you wish.
But as a reader, it seems like this change with the game threads is moving the site away from super-fantastic-awesomeo to good.
But the game threads are the kind of thing that keep me glued to the batters box.
Ultimately, it's your site, and you're free to do with it as you wish.
But as a reader, it seems like this change with the game threads is moving the site away from super-fantastic-awesomeo to good.
Welcome back to the big leagues, Kerry Ligtenberg!
Ouch. He pitched a 7-run 9th inning yesterday. Against the Pirates.
I will miss the game threads. Night games in the east start at 4pm for me and I'm not always home from work at that time. It was nice to be able to catch up on what happened if I turned the TV on in the 4th inning. As for noise, every chat I've ever been in, other than my personal family only chats have had a very high noise level and I've been Irc'ing for more than a few years. My opinion, which is worth pretty much nothing would be to keep both the chat and the game threads but I realize this is a non-voting situation. I just hope this change of direction works out but I'm seriously worried about a drastic loss of readership and participation.
You guys have to remember that when you say "the game threads aren't that bad", you're seeing them after they've been cleaned up. We have to sit on them, watch them, and delete, delete, delete, delete. Nobody wants to do it. There are arguments over what's "bad enough" to be deleted. All that to get a thread that's "not bad" and definitely not as good as last year.
As to the comment quality in the GTs, they've increasingly gone from "I don't understand that decision" and "that was a poor at-bat" to "Gibbons is stupid" and "Check out Menestinko". The first two are conversation-starters; the second two are conversation-killers.
As to the focus of the site, a lot of writers are feeling a little trapped by the unintended shift to all Jays, all the time.
And about the number of comments as a measure of, well, anything: Mike D's Advance Scout is hands-down the most useful thing to read before watching a Jays game if you want to appear to be some kind of baseball genius who knows everything about every team to your viewing companions. I read it religiously. I don't comment usually, because what could I add besides "Another good one, Mike"?
The Advance Scout gets few comments. Personally, I think it's because it's always so definitive. Does that make it "bad"? Hell no.
As to the comment quality in the GTs, they've increasingly gone from "I don't understand that decision" and "that was a poor at-bat" to "Gibbons is stupid" and "Check out Menestinko". The first two are conversation-starters; the second two are conversation-killers.
As to the focus of the site, a lot of writers are feeling a little trapped by the unintended shift to all Jays, all the time.
And about the number of comments as a measure of, well, anything: Mike D's Advance Scout is hands-down the most useful thing to read before watching a Jays game if you want to appear to be some kind of baseball genius who knows everything about every team to your viewing companions. I read it religiously. I don't comment usually, because what could I add besides "Another good one, Mike"?
The Advance Scout gets few comments. Personally, I think it's because it's always so definitive. Does that make it "bad"? Hell no.
Right, the way people complained that they wanted them to be.
What people? How many?
And how about the current complaints arguing the opposite? Do those complaints not count?
Add me to the list. I do miss the game threads but I don't miss the roundups (other than the cuttlefish contests).
There seems to be some inverse law of commenting on this site. Generally speaking, the more insightful an article is, the less it gets commented on. Usually articles get commented on when someone disagrees with something said in the article ("I think A-Gon for Heredia was a bad trade, not a good one!") Because of that, I don't think any of us judge the success or a failure of a piece on the number of comments it generates.
RE: Roundups. The main reason we don't have them this year is because last year I did about 90% of them, and I simply don't have the time to do them this year. Last year at this time I was living by myself - now my girlfriend and I own a house so I've got a lot more "responsibilities" to take care of. It's hard to find people to do them on a regular basis because they are such a pain to do and, quite frankly, not particularly rewarding to the writer.
RE: Roundups. The main reason we don't have them this year is because last year I did about 90% of them, and I simply don't have the time to do them this year. Last year at this time I was living by myself - now my girlfriend and I own a house so I've got a lot more "responsibilities" to take care of. It's hard to find people to do them on a regular basis because they are such a pain to do and, quite frankly, not particularly rewarding to the writer.
Another reason (other than the complaints about them, the work they involve, etc.) we're not enthused about the Game Threads is that there are so many other sites that do it. Such as Blue Jay Way, MLB.com, ESPN, etc. It's a lot more rewarding for us to find a niche that's not being covered, rather than doing something that's a fair bit of work, not particularly rewarding, and quite a few people don't like (though obviously many of you do like them).
I think there's room out there for several sites that interest Jays fans, so I don't really think we need to try to compete with Blue Jay Way as far Game Threads go.
How much deletion actually goes on in the game threads? For me, I find that a total length of 200 posts in a game thread is about the maximum that I can read through. I can't stand reading the popular BTF threads that go towards 1000 posts because there's just too much off-topic noise.
It sounds like a moderated thread like the ones on slashdot may be able to please everyone - where the moderators assign a score between 1(crap)-5(genius) for each post, and people can set their own tolerance level. I know that this is technically impossible to implement at this time, but may be worth considering in the future. It also has the benefit of encouraging quality posts.
For any measure, I think it is important to have one place that someone can go to catch up on stuff they missed. And I echo the notion to link to the "rules" at the beginning of each thread because people need to be reminded of them.
It sounds like a moderated thread like the ones on slashdot may be able to please everyone - where the moderators assign a score between 1(crap)-5(genius) for each post, and people can set their own tolerance level. I know that this is technically impossible to implement at this time, but may be worth considering in the future. It also has the benefit of encouraging quality posts.
For any measure, I think it is important to have one place that someone can go to catch up on stuff they missed. And I echo the notion to link to the "rules" at the beginning of each thread because people need to be reminded of them.
These game threads here are a niche. Can you honestly compare the quality of bluejayway and battersbox threads and maintain a straight face while doing so? You're comparing a Mercedes to a Hyundai.
First off, I am of the opinion that if something is free, you take what you get. If others are devoting unpaid time to an activity (like maintaining a tremendous web site), you take what you get. Until I start forking out cash, no one is duty-bound to do anything for me. And that includes providing a Game Thread forum or a Roundup with links to essays.
That said, I share the sentiments of many that the Game Threads will be missed. If I join a game mid-way (as will frequently be the case during the summer), I'd like to scroll back and see what I've missed (e.g., Bush getting pulled after 79 pitches, Zaun getting KO'd). While I find the DUDE!!! remarks tiresome and the Menestinko name-calling juvenile, I am willing to wade through the noise.
I was not aware of the amount of deleting that goes on (or that any deleting has been going on). My suggestion: warn the offenders and if they continue, deny them access. This is not a publically funded sandbox. There's no law that says all neighbourhood kids have a right to play.
I participated in one IRC game thread (small g, small t). It was fun to engage in back-and-forth smart ass remarks, but I can see my appetite for such diminishing over time. And I think any chance for serious dialogue is minimal in such a forum.
On a final note, why not have both the original style Game Thread and the IRC version? People could choose their destination and may in fact choose to post in both places during a game. That friggin' Uribe is killing us would be an appropriate on-the-fly IRC remark. A more tangential who is going to get displaced when Frank Thomas returns? dialogue might be better suited to the Game Thread where, hopefully, intelligent discourse could ensue.
last year I did about 90% of (Roundups), and I simply don't have the time to do them this year
Goodness, Mike -- you let life get in the way of your hobby? Where are your priorities? Me too, unfortunately; I've been ill, started a new job, currently have to find a place to live against a looming deadline, then will be moving. It means part of our Jays "coverage" that Bauxites have come to expect (namely me, hanging around the Dome for eight hours a day during every homestand to absorb background, develop relationships and bring you exclusive features and interviews) has changed. As Chuck astutely points out, that was an unpaid labour of love that is impossible to sustain because my circumstances have changed. If the readership wanted to chip in and pay me even $15/hour, I'd gladly, deliriously happily, quit taking tech support phone calls, return to that beat, and write 10,000 words on baseball every week, like I did for nearly two years, with occasional wit or insight.
Let's say a group of friends invites strangers to sit with us at ball games. Not everyone enjoys our company, which is understandable -- Aaron's deafening "Charge!!!" scares infants, and a lot of passionate opinions are exchanged, some with cutting sarcasm. Some people think we're a lot of fun and keep coming back. Others choose to disagree (or have grown tired of our act) so they exercise their prerogative to find another seat. It's the ones who insist on telling us we're not watching the game right who baffle me.Pepper I see your point, but that happens on every site. If an article goes against the grain or there is something just right out of left field, people are going to comment on it.
When theres an amazing well written article that most people agree on... whats to say, Other than really "Thanks for the great article, I liked his insight on XXXX".
I think no matter what the overall readership level is, people are going to comment on the ones that just aren't right.
When theres an amazing well written article that most people agree on... whats to say, Other than really "Thanks for the great article, I liked his insight on XXXX".
I think no matter what the overall readership level is, people are going to comment on the ones that just aren't right.
First off, I am of the opinion that if something is free, you take what you get. If others are devoting unpaid time to an activity (like maintaining a tremendous web site), you take what you get. Until I start forking out cash, no one is duty-bound to do anything for me. And that includes providing a Game Thread forum or a Roundup with links to essays.
I agree with this very much, but I would also note that six months ago I would have happily paid for a membership/subscription to Batter's Box without blinking an eye. Now, I'm not so sure.
I agree with this very much, but I would also note that six months ago I would have happily paid for a membership/subscription to Batter's Box without blinking an eye. Now, I'm not so sure.
Let's say a group of friends invites strangers to sit with us at ball games. ... Some people think we're a lot of fun and keep coming back. Others choose to disagree (or have grown tired of our act) so they exercise their prerogative to find another seat. It's the ones who insist on telling us we're not watching the game right who baffle me.
[I can’t resist protesting that I am unaware of anyone telling someone else that they’re ‘not watching the game right’.]
Now you know how Dr. Frankenstein felt, Coach: you’ve created a monster–and it’s got away from you. (I sure hope things end up better for you than they did for him.)
O.K., we’re “strangers” among a group of others who are “friends”. And we can stay around as long as we agree with them and their views. How likely is that to work? We *are* invited, it seems; but are we welcome, or just allowed to sit in your company-–as long as we don’t irritate you? You must decide whether we're included, or we’re not. It’s been hard all along to avoid the impression that certain of the Roster/Cabal are ‘isolationist’ in this matter, preferring to keep the riff-raff out. (Can’t say I much blame them for wanting that.) But, short of someone being ‘the cop’ and weeding out the undesirables, they aren’t going to go away. Some of them (me included perhaps) may even be deluding themselves that they are among the condoned. (Hey, I at least preview my postings.)
Good luck with the monster. I’ve grown rather fond of it, myself. Which, of course, makes it easy for it to exasperate me, too.
(And no, Flex, your 'analysis' is way too easy. All change is not the same.)
[I can’t resist protesting that I am unaware of anyone telling someone else that they’re ‘not watching the game right’.]
Now you know how Dr. Frankenstein felt, Coach: you’ve created a monster–and it’s got away from you. (I sure hope things end up better for you than they did for him.)
O.K., we’re “strangers” among a group of others who are “friends”. And we can stay around as long as we agree with them and their views. How likely is that to work? We *are* invited, it seems; but are we welcome, or just allowed to sit in your company-–as long as we don’t irritate you? You must decide whether we're included, or we’re not. It’s been hard all along to avoid the impression that certain of the Roster/Cabal are ‘isolationist’ in this matter, preferring to keep the riff-raff out. (Can’t say I much blame them for wanting that.) But, short of someone being ‘the cop’ and weeding out the undesirables, they aren’t going to go away. Some of them (me included perhaps) may even be deluding themselves that they are among the condoned. (Hey, I at least preview my postings.)
Good luck with the monster. I’ve grown rather fond of it, myself. Which, of course, makes it easy for it to exasperate me, too.
(And no, Flex, your 'analysis' is way too easy. All change is not the same.)
[I can’t resist protesting that I am unaware of anyone telling someone else that they’re ‘not watching the game right’.]
willy, it was an analogy regarding the fact the sixty or seventy posts in this thread are essentially saying "you're not doing this site right."
we can stay around as long as we agree with them and their views. How likely is that to work? We *are* invited, it seems; but are we welcome, or just allowed to sit in your company-–as long as we don’t irritate you?
I think you're bang on in the latter -- in fact, if someone is sitting in your box seats or using your Web space and they irritate you, ask them or tell them to leave. That's reasonable. However, you miss the mark with the former -- no Box user has ever, under any circumstance, been removed for having an opposing view to Kent or any other Roster member (say it with me -- "There is no Cabal.") How that opinion is expressed, sure. But not the opinion itself. It's the difference between "J.P. is a moron and you guys are all in love with him like little schoolgirls" and "I don't understand why Ricciardi is so universally supported here. When he made Transaction A, B and C, they didn't work out. Sure, Transaction D did, and signing So and So to a multiyear contract was a good idea, but how about ..."
As Coach hinted at, the difference between a fun argument at the ballgame and someone getting in your face and screaming at you about what a flaming moron you are.
The analogy is inexact, but it works very well, and Coach has been using it since, if not Day 1, around Day 10 of Batter's Box.
Ughh.... went to the chat room and all they're talking about is Scrabble.
We'll figure it out. And even when we make arguments against them, we do appreciate hearing your opinions. Keep 'em coming.
(And willy, if there's one thing I've noticed, it's that the people who aren't troublemakers always suspect that they're the troublemakers, while the actual troublemakers are oblivious to the fact that they're being talked about.)
(And willy, if there's one thing I've noticed, it's that the people who aren't troublemakers always suspect that they're the troublemakers, while the actual troublemakers are oblivious to the fact that they're being talked about.)
Just noticed that there is a (temporary) log of today's IRC at http://www.battersbox.ca/logs/battersbox.log
willy, it was an analogy regarding the fact the sixty or seventy posts in this thread are essentially saying "you're not doing this site right."
Sixty or seventy posts saying you're not doing the site right? It seems that there are plenty of posts where people go out of their way to compliment the site (deservedly) while simply suggesting/mentioning/sharing that they enjoyed the game threads. While the chat was OK tonight, but it's simply no match for the format of the game threads.
The analogy is inexact, but it works very well, and Coach has been using it since, if not Day 1, around Day 10 of Batter's Box.
I know he has, but I think willy's Frankenstien analogy is a very apt one: like anything, especially on the internet, when you become popular you open yourself up to an abundance of 'annoyances'. I can't think of a single site that found popularity but maintained an annoyance, irritation free enviroment. Certainly BB is not intending that to be the case here.
The site's clearly going through some growing pains, but I hope the Roster appreciates that BB will likely never be what it was meant to be, nor will it be what it once was. It is what it is.
Sixty or seventy posts saying you're not doing the site right? It seems that there are plenty of posts where people go out of their way to compliment the site (deservedly) while simply suggesting/mentioning/sharing that they enjoyed the game threads. While the chat was OK tonight, but it's simply no match for the format of the game threads.
The analogy is inexact, but it works very well, and Coach has been using it since, if not Day 1, around Day 10 of Batter's Box.
I know he has, but I think willy's Frankenstien analogy is a very apt one: like anything, especially on the internet, when you become popular you open yourself up to an abundance of 'annoyances'. I can't think of a single site that found popularity but maintained an annoyance, irritation free enviroment. Certainly BB is not intending that to be the case here.
The site's clearly going through some growing pains, but I hope the Roster appreciates that BB will likely never be what it was meant to be, nor will it be what it once was. It is what it is.
Stephen, our brilliant Joe Drew added that as a way to catch up on what you had missed in the chat so far -- it's live during the game, so you can read it to see what's gone on and then join in. It resets around noon the next day, I think.
Like most things Joe does, it arrived with no fanfare. ;)
It maybe-sorta addresses the issue of not being able to catch up on what went on so far. I'd like to know what people think of it -- does it lessen anyone's concerns?
If nothing else, it's nifty.
Like most things Joe does, it arrived with no fanfare. ;)
It maybe-sorta addresses the issue of not being able to catch up on what went on so far. I'd like to know what people think of it -- does it lessen anyone's concerns?
If nothing else, it's nifty.
This is obviously not a comment with any "baseball" substance. But how do you convert the saved chat file into actual english vs. the code that it comes up in? I'd really like to see what all the fuss is about.
It's a good idea, but it needs to be "cleaned up." There's no reason for the log to show "RandomGuy has quit" or "RandomGuy has joined" etc. Makes it very hard to read.
Still, good idea.
Still, good idea.
Hoff, it should just appear as english in your browser. What are you opening it with?
That's a good point, KR. I'll ask Joe if there's a way to strip the non-comment stuff out of the log automatically. His big brain oughta be able to figure something out.
Hoff, did you download it, or just click on it?
It should start like this:
Session Start: Mon May 09 01:34:46 2005
[01:34] *** Now talking in #battersbox
[01:34] <BattersBot> Hi
[01:38] <HoserHead> hello
Then it has a bunch of junk of people logging in and out:
[02:54] *** HoserHead has left #battersbox ("This computer has gone to sleep")
[05:47] *** BBAnon (~BBAnon@128kisdn.isdn.golden.net) has joined #battersbox
[05:47] *** BBAnon has left #battersbox (Client Quit)
[08:14] *** BBAnon569 (~c308be27@capricorn.woot.net) has joined #battersbox
[08:15] *** BBAnon569 (c308be27@capricorn.woot.net) has left #battersbox ()
and on and on, and THEN people actually talk:
[19:07] <DrZarco> Crowd looks pretty darn small
[19:07] <HollywoodHartman> The Royals aren't a great draw
[19:08] <HollywoodHartman> interesting strategy by the Royals... Playing 2 guys under the Mendoza line
[19:08] <DrZarco> I think Russ Adams was just signing alone to Oh Canada
Look for the time -- the stuff from 8am is not the stuff you want to read to catch up.
It should start like this:
Session Start: Mon May 09 01:34:46 2005
[01:34] *** Now talking in #battersbox
[01:34] <BattersBot> Hi
[01:38] <HoserHead> hello
Then it has a bunch of junk of people logging in and out:
[02:54] *** HoserHead has left #battersbox ("This computer has gone to sleep")
[05:47] *** BBAnon (~BBAnon@128kisdn.isdn.golden.net) has joined #battersbox
[05:47] *** BBAnon has left #battersbox (Client Quit)
[08:14] *** BBAnon569 (~c308be27@capricorn.woot.net) has joined #battersbox
[08:15] *** BBAnon569 (c308be27@capricorn.woot.net) has left #battersbox ()
and on and on, and THEN people actually talk:
[19:07] <DrZarco> Crowd looks pretty darn small
[19:07] <HollywoodHartman> The Royals aren't a great draw
[19:08] <HollywoodHartman> interesting strategy by the Royals... Playing 2 guys under the Mendoza line
[19:08] <DrZarco> I think Russ Adams was just signing alone to Oh Canada
Look for the time -- the stuff from 8am is not the stuff you want to read to catch up.
If I open the log with Internet Explorer 6.0 (on Windows XP), it opens it with Notepad, which doesn't understand the Unix linefeeds, so it puts it all on one line. Very hard to read.
If I save it to a file and then open it with Wordpad, then it's readable (though some lines require scrolling off the side).
What I find most convenient so far is to open it with Netscape 4.79, then it's readable, and easy to refresh.
If I save it to a file and then open it with Wordpad, then it's readable (though some lines require scrolling off the side).
What I find most convenient so far is to open it with Netscape 4.79, then it's readable, and easy to refresh.
Dagnabbit, Mick, I love it when you talk grumpy.
willy, it was an analogy regarding the fact the sixty or seventy posts in this thread are essentially saying "you're not doing this site right."
Yes, I know it was an analogy, but an inappropriate one in my view; or at least one which betrays the conflicted notions of what this site is in the eyes of its creators.
...if someone is sitting in your box seats or using your Web space and they irritate you, ask them or tell them to leave ...
Think about the implications of *that* analogy, Mick. At some point you guys are going to have to decide about whether you want us to 'play' or not. The possessiveness of this analogy is worrisome. Maybe once the site was yours', and yours' alone. But not any more (except, of course, in the legal and financial senses--the least important senses of all, in the long run. Sorry.) The site as it currently exists belongs to all the people who participate in it--the contributors, the readers, the posters. The latter two groups aren't simply interlopers. Sorry again. But you guys do have trouble accepting that. (Dr. Frankenstein thought he could get the monster back in his lab, too.) You might all feel a bit better if you willingly loosened your grip a bit. On the other hand, of course, maybe you don't even *want* the site to continue in its current form as a participatory site.
I don't like being placed in a position where I seem to be arguing with you, because I enjoy and appreciate your work on Da Box, and I agree entirely with you about the kinds (not necessarily the levels) of noise here.
FWIW, I cannot log in to Da Box using Netscape (if anyone can solve why this is so, please help), and I don't like Internet Explorer at all; so you are all probably spared an occasional nattering from me. That I take the trouble to write on this matter at this time indicates the degree to which I appreciate and enjoy the site. Cheers.
Thought I'd pipe in with my 2 cents, although I don't know if it's even worth that much.
:)
I personally post alot less than I used to, party because I'm busier now, but partly because I realize that I don't really have that many insightfull comments to make, and I'd only be posting to raise my posting average. (A feature which was sensibly removed). I tried to follow the gamethread conventions, but I could never remember them, and even then, I still wasn't contributing all that much.
I think there's a difference of opinion between what we (the outsiders) and you (the roster) want. We want a Blue Jays fan site, you want an interactive magazine that has a Blue Jays bent (or not, I'm no longer sure about that last part). Some features overlap perfectly (minor league reports) while some do not (game threads).
Personally I won't miss the game threads, but I do miss the Roundups. I understand that the roundups are gone for very sensible reasons (Pepper Moffatt no longer has time, and they're the perfect example of something that's great on a fan site, but not so good on an interactive magazine).
With that said, if you're looking for opinions on which articles to keep and which to lose, I think that the minor league reports are the best (regular) part of this site, and that the series previews are a close second. The Hall of Names doesn't interest me, and I have never once opened a BBFL roundup article. I understand that alot of posters here are in the league, but it has zero interest for those of us not in the league. Maybe it could somehow be put to the side? Like, only show up on the side links, but not the main page?
Anyways, despite these mild criticisms, I frequent the box just about as much as I have since I discovered it, and I don't think that will change any time soon.
:)
I personally post alot less than I used to, party because I'm busier now, but partly because I realize that I don't really have that many insightfull comments to make, and I'd only be posting to raise my posting average. (A feature which was sensibly removed). I tried to follow the gamethread conventions, but I could never remember them, and even then, I still wasn't contributing all that much.
I think there's a difference of opinion between what we (the outsiders) and you (the roster) want. We want a Blue Jays fan site, you want an interactive magazine that has a Blue Jays bent (or not, I'm no longer sure about that last part). Some features overlap perfectly (minor league reports) while some do not (game threads).
Personally I won't miss the game threads, but I do miss the Roundups. I understand that the roundups are gone for very sensible reasons (Pepper Moffatt no longer has time, and they're the perfect example of something that's great on a fan site, but not so good on an interactive magazine).
With that said, if you're looking for opinions on which articles to keep and which to lose, I think that the minor league reports are the best (regular) part of this site, and that the series previews are a close second. The Hall of Names doesn't interest me, and I have never once opened a BBFL roundup article. I understand that alot of posters here are in the league, but it has zero interest for those of us not in the league. Maybe it could somehow be put to the side? Like, only show up on the side links, but not the main page?
Anyways, despite these mild criticisms, I frequent the box just about as much as I have since I discovered it, and I don't think that will change any time soon.
willy, I think you'd hate to see what would happen if we loosened our grip a bit. Really.
Some of the stuff we've had to delete has been positively odious. It's part of the gig when you allow comments and have a lot of readers coming through, but we still want to minimize it.
Some of the stuff we've had to delete has been positively odious. It's part of the gig when you allow comments and have a lot of readers coming through, but we still want to minimize it.
A couple of comments after reading through this thread:
1. I've been coming to this site for about a year, and have learned a ton of baseball knowledge (and I already thought I knew quite a bit). Much of what I have learned has come from the game threads. Granted, there is alot of "noise" to sort through, but there was no better way to get an insightful analysis of the flow of the game.
2. I'm surprised to hear that this is not a "Jays" site. That is what initially attracted me; and although I enjoy the non-Jays analysis, I would be very disappointed if I had to look elsewhere for insightful Jays analysis.
3. I don't think it is a "very vocal minority" who are objecting to these changes; I believe that it is the majority of those who frequent this site who feel that this site is not as valuable without the game threads.
All that being said, I still enjoy the site - I just won't be visiting as often now.
1. I've been coming to this site for about a year, and have learned a ton of baseball knowledge (and I already thought I knew quite a bit). Much of what I have learned has come from the game threads. Granted, there is alot of "noise" to sort through, but there was no better way to get an insightful analysis of the flow of the game.
2. I'm surprised to hear that this is not a "Jays" site. That is what initially attracted me; and although I enjoy the non-Jays analysis, I would be very disappointed if I had to look elsewhere for insightful Jays analysis.
3. I don't think it is a "very vocal minority" who are objecting to these changes; I believe that it is the majority of those who frequent this site who feel that this site is not as valuable without the game threads.
All that being said, I still enjoy the site - I just won't be visiting as often now.
Folks, let's not get carried away with the "Jays/Non-Jays" stuff.
The Minor League Updates, Advance Scout, Game Reports and Photo Of The Week -- not to mention various and sundry other articles -- all continue to be written from the perspective of the favourite team of most of the Roster (and Batter's Box readers). As we grow, though, we'll add more and more content to keep readers aware of goings-on elsewhere in the baseball world (like, for example, the excellent Divisional Updates). We like to expand our horizons as writers, and to offer content for any serious-minded baseball fan who stops by.
Our problem isn't so much with the word "Jays" in the phrase "Jays fan site." It's that we're not a fan site per se, and never really have been. We want to write quality articles, often from a Toronto perspective, and to stay "interactive" so we can enjoy the feedback and insights of our readers. Selfishly, we also enjoy readers' input because we regularly recruit new Roster members from the thoughtful members of the Batter's Box community.
We've got some ideas in the works to help enhance the game (and post-game) experience. Give us some time; we'll get it right.
The Minor League Updates, Advance Scout, Game Reports and Photo Of The Week -- not to mention various and sundry other articles -- all continue to be written from the perspective of the favourite team of most of the Roster (and Batter's Box readers). As we grow, though, we'll add more and more content to keep readers aware of goings-on elsewhere in the baseball world (like, for example, the excellent Divisional Updates). We like to expand our horizons as writers, and to offer content for any serious-minded baseball fan who stops by.
Our problem isn't so much with the word "Jays" in the phrase "Jays fan site." It's that we're not a fan site per se, and never really have been. We want to write quality articles, often from a Toronto perspective, and to stay "interactive" so we can enjoy the feedback and insights of our readers. Selfishly, we also enjoy readers' input because we regularly recruit new Roster members from the thoughtful members of the Batter's Box community.
We've got some ideas in the works to help enhance the game (and post-game) experience. Give us some time; we'll get it right.
fyi: It appears that yesterday's IRC is now in http://www.battersbox.ca/logs/battersbox.log.yesterday and that it displays fine in Internet Explorer 6.0 (I think because it doesn't end with a .log extension now).
I have changed the extension on these files, so even you poor souls stuck using Internet Explorer can view them in the comfort of your browser. Today's log is available at http://www.battersbox.ca/logs/battersbox.txt, and yesterday's is http://www.battersbox.ca/logs/battersbox.txt.yesterday. (I also made links so that the old log file links work, too.)
Paul D,
I'm also not a BBFL user, so when I set up Geeklog I was happy to see that I can exclude certain types of articles from the front page altogether. Under "User Functions" on the left-hand side, go to Preferences, then find Excluded Items. Click the checkbox next to BBFL, and you'll never see another BBFL article again (though they'll still show up in Hot Topics).
I'm also not a BBFL user, so when I set up Geeklog I was happy to see that I can exclude certain types of articles from the front page altogether. Under "User Functions" on the left-hand side, go to Preferences, then find Excluded Items. Click the checkbox next to BBFL, and you'll never see another BBFL article again (though they'll still show up in Hot Topics).
Joe, that's a fantastic idea, and exactly what I want.
I had completely forgotten about that part of the user preferences, thanks.
I had completely forgotten about that part of the user preferences, thanks.
Selfishly, we also enjoy readers' input because we regularly recruit new Roster members from the thoughtful members of the Batter's Box community.
That's been the best part. I've always had "baseball friends" but never this many. Each time we added an author, it was someone who revered baseball. Jays fandom was not a requirement, merely a coincidence, and those of us who don't root for another team each wear it on our sleeves to a different degree. The most analytical don't let their allegiance affect their assessments. NFH has his favourite players, but he'll cheer for anyone wearing the laundry. (I mean that in the nicest possible way.) I pick and choose; loved the Gillick Jays, then despaired for several years until the changes made in 2002 brought me back.
Input from readers telling us (which as the founder and a thin-skinned sort, I often misinterpret as "me") what we are doing wrong is about as welcome to me as a pulled hamstring. This has never been about anything except us having fun. The thoughtful readers Mike mentions, who enjoy what we do and want to participate, are indeed recruited, but joining the Roster is not without sacrifice -- very few people, once brainwashed by the ZLC and controlled by the non-existent Cabal, ever function normally again.