Assuming Koskie passes the physical, it'll be nice to have another gorilla-sized bat in the lineup.

So close, Ryan ... I need a title before I can award the daily JPG.

With the discussion in da Box the last few days about whether coming to Canada is a deterrent for FA's, Jeff Blair on the Score last night said that Anaheim had submitted the best offer to Clement but Clement did not particularly want to play on the west coast. Blair intimated that Toronto was the favourite.

Also, a while ago on another thread I calculated that with a $53M payroll (which has been repeated again in the press the last few days) the Jays would have about $17M to spend not the $14M that has been widely reported.

When you play in the American Beleague, it's easy to be beleaguered.

What's not to like about Pedro Martinez? But, if it's 4 yrs/$56, you've got to wonder. The Mets are competing with the Yanks, and for them, perhaps it will end up being worth it.

For a few dollars more, the Jays could land Clement, and strike some Clint Eastwood type intimidation into opposing batters.

Have I been missing the beleaguering? Is there a beleaguerer trailing after Ricciardi that I'm not aware of? Has someone contacted the Anti-Beleaguering League?

It's a typo -- Griff is just noting how high JP is on Brandon League, making him a truly "B.Leaguered" GM.

So close, Ryan ... I need a title before I can award the daily JPG.

Aw, c'mon. Please? Go ahead - make my day.

(and after this, I'm abandoning all pretense of subtlety)

But, if it's 4 yrs/$56, you've got to wonder. The Mets are competing with the Yanks, and for them, perhaps it will end up being worth it.

Absolutely. This is a PR game in New York, and that money just bought not only an ace starting pitcher, but hundreds upon hundreds of can't-put-a-price-on-it back pages of the Post and the Daily News.

Every time Pedro starts, it will knock the pisntripes inside and off the back page. The Mets PR department is having wet dreams about the possibilities.

Good enough for me. Our co-winners are Ryan and Christopher, who together named Gorillaz' Clint Eastwood as the source of today's lyrics. In addition to splitting one million points between them, they receive joint custody of this photo of Clint and a thespian colleague:



Heh. Eddie Rabbitt.

Mmm ... Pedro in Shea ... the stats could be so very, very gaudy .... mmm ...

I actually think New Orleans was JP's best meeting so far, despite the debacle that followed.

I'm inclined to agree - "the debacle that followed" is fair enough Lord knows, but the blame for it can't really be laid on what happened in the winter meetings (admitting that Hentgen was a disaster.) Even Ligtenberg can still salvage something in return for the investment and Lilly, Speier and Batista are all worth keeping.

On the other hand, Griffin's giving too much credit for Nashville. Lidle was a disappointment. Jason Arnold and JF Griffin have failed to develop as expected, so far. Bordick was teriffic, but he's gone, and Catalanotto has been good when he's been healthy, but he hasn't been all that healthy.

So are we really going to have to deal with a Hinske/Cat/Crozier/Frankie M. 1b/DH carousel??

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1945747
Jayson Stark has ripped Pedro and the Mets a new one (apparently its four years guaranteed at $52 million now.) COMN

What's really interesting is the related story, about Pedro's physical. Next post.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1945561
This strikes me as absolutely insane.

One item being discussed is whether Martinez would be allowed to skip any potential MRI exam as part of the physical and instead merely take a strength test on his arm and shoulder. COMN

If the Mets agree to that - skip the MRI on someone you're about to guarantee $ 52 million dollars to, someone rumoured to have a partially torn labrum - well, gosh. Its time to call up Omar Minaya and see if he'll trade David Wright for Josh Towers.

To Toronto: 1b Adrian Gonzalez.
To Texas: OF Gabe Gross, Rhp Jason Arnold.

Texas would be getting another good young outfield prospect and a pitching prospect that projects to be a 4th/5th starter or solid reliever. It would also allow them to DH Mench and have Nix, Hidalgo and Gross in the outfield. Toronto would be receiving a blue chip prospect that could be a force in the majors for quite some time. Also, neither team would be adding anymore salary to their payrolls.

That last post is just a thought not a rumour.

But one baseball man who knows the Red Sox well predicted there would be no clubhouse uproar over this.

Hello, Peter.

Also, a while ago on another thread I calculated that with a $53M payroll (which has been repeated again in the press the last few days) the Jays would have about $17M to spend not the $14M that has been widely reported.

I have been trying to keep a version of Gwynn's spreadsheet up to date, and I show the Jays at 53Mil, with only 14 Mil left... (COMN if you want me to email it to you)

but there is a lot of assumptions in there, like 1.6 to Speier and 1 to Zaun, and a bunch of league minimums for the callups..

so it depends a lot where you draw the line in terms of what is committed...

http://www.aarongleeman.com/
Comm for the boy wonders (Aaron Gleeman) take on the Koskie signing.

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/10411595.htm
From Rotoworld:

"Ryan Howard isn't making any demands, but he hopes the Phillies will trade him to a team that will allow him to play." COMN.

Paging J.P. to the white telephone.

You know..

If we are signing a pitcher, I'd like to see us giving him a front loaded contract..

If you assume a $9 Mil pitcher for 3 years (3/27), then we would already have $51 Mil committed for 2006 and only 22 players included...

Yikes!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/14/opinion/14carroll.html?oref=login&th
Will Carroll has an Op-Ed in today's NY Times on baseball and performance-enhancing drugs. COMN. Registration required.

I was doing a longer post but something fired it into oblivion. I've got committed contracts of $31.15M (pre Koskie)plus near minimums for Adams, Rios, Sparky, Hudson, Bush, Frasor and Chulk, plus Spieir at $1.6M plus 2 catchers at $1.3 equal to about $36.5M. The Jays then need 3-4 pitchers (some filled internally at min), a 1B, a DH/OF (whatever Cat doesn't play) and another backup IF (likely paid min). Now with Koskie, the 1B position is filled by Hinske (is that screaming I hear?).

http://www.fan590.com
The Jays/Koskie news conference is on the Fan right now.
COMN

Koskie news conference is on the Fan now.

J.P. says Hinske will play first base.

Koskie will wear #47.

Heh, Koskie's talking about how in his first year he was most excited to play not in Fenway or Yankee Stadium, but in SkyDome.

He also says it was a decision made with his family, to come here.

Heh, he's talking about how the town of Anola was deserted when the Twins played the Jays and that if he was a burglar he'd be watching the baseball schedule.

He sounds quite engaging, and excited to be here.

And for those of you don't read the on-line NY Times - well, it's much mushier than one would expect from Mr Carroll. A lot of one-the-one-hand-this and one-the-one-hand-that...

And the following irritating quote:

According to Clay Davenport, a researcher at Baseball Prospectus, Hank Aaron's best year for home runs - when he had the most homers per at bat - was 1973, when he was 39. His second best was in 1971, at age 37. Willie Stargell had his best seasons after age 37. Carlton Fisk put his best rate in the books when he was 40. Even Ty Cobb had his best home run rate at age 38, though the end of the dead-ball era helped that.

I think Mr Carroll knows that Henry Aaron's late-in-life HR surge was largely a park illusion, the difference between County Stadium in Milwaukee and Fulton County in Atlanta.

Willie Stargell most certainly did not have his best years after turning 37. This is utterly incomprehensible.

Carlton Fisk did put his best HR per at bat rate in the books when he was 40. In half a season (253 at bats).

"the end of the dead-ball era helped that."

Ya think? He hit 69 HRs in 17 seasons through 1920, and 48 in parts of 7 seasons after? Yeah, I'd say it helped just a little.

Very disappointing. Mr Carroll is usually much better than this.

Conference is also live on TV on the score right now as well

Anything in the press conference about Clement, or any additional moves?

Hmmm... Hope this doesn't get lost in the play-by-play, but don't stop, thanks for the reports..

I have eligibility questions
1) Does time spent in the majors like Chacin and Adams in September count as Major League time??

2) do they get 1/6 of the Major League Minimum for such appearances??

3) do the guys that were on the 40man all season, but never played in the Majors count anything twaords the major league salary total?

Thanks
D

Jim, I had to stop listening because people started calling me. But what I heard was all Koskie.

Didn't hear anything about Clement, although someone did come into my office while I had it on so I may have missed it.
Godfrey started things off by congratulating Cheek, which I thought was a nice touch.

The Pedro deal...it'll be great to watch him, especially if they can play a real 1B at 1B. The Mets, with a Wright-Reyes-Matsui infield and Cameron in the outfield, have great range. But this deal is a potential disaster- it seems like the Mets are cursed with free agents- being stupid doesn't help. But you'd think someone would learn something. I'd rather see them cough up $23 million for Drew and Delgado. That'd be an insane lineup, especially if Reyes and Matsui hit. They are an absolutely clueless franchise.

Does time spent in the majors like Chacin and Adams in September count as Major League time?

Yes.

do they get 1/6 of the Major League Minimum for such appearances?

If that's how long they were on the ML roster. Players are paid during the season.

do the guys that were on the 40man all season, but never played in the Majors count anything towards the major league salary total?

Sure. You still have to pay them.

Toronto could be partly Koskie's team

Understated, SF. He's definitely not going to strut into camp and declare himself the straw who stirs the drink. How un-Canadian would that be? While Doc has enormous respect, the Jays are now Vernon Wells' team. Koskie's leadership will be complementary.

I'm wondering if Toronto can become Corey's town? It's not quite like having Larry Walker in his prime, because Koskie isn't a superstar, but I hope his countrymen appreciate his excellent career and subtle skills. Or will a small-town Manitoban be considered an outsider in our cynical, jaded metropolis?

Koskie should be a focal point of marketing. Do variations on the best of the "Baseball North" ads; maybe he could explain to the Hawaiian Punch-Out that his fastball up here is 160. Tie him in with new corporate sponsors -- have him sharing Timbits in the dugout. Get him into the community. Put the goalie pads on him and let him take a few shots from the Leafs, if they ever practice again.

Corey may not be as charismatic as Delgado, or as great a hitter, but he's a damn fine player and one of our own. Welcome to T.O., CK.

I can't remember if it was Godfrey or J.P., but one of them said off the top that they brought in Koskie because he brings a lot to the dressing room.

do the guys that were on the 40man all season, but never played in the Majors count anything towards the major league salary total?

Sure. You still have to pay them.

Correct me if I'm wrong Magpie, but I believe players not on the 25 man only make a season $50,000 as opposed to the league minimum of $300,000. So, yes they still have to pay them, but it's almost negligible in the big picture.

...brings a lot to the dressing room.

This is SUCH a hockey country. ;)

Put the goalie pads on him and let him take a few shots from the Leafs, if they ever practice again.

Coach, I like your ideas, but I really really really hope that they don't do that. I hate it when the Blue Jays try to market themselves by pretending that they're hockey.

The only time I've ever like anything like that was the old Raptors commercials. There's one where Reggie Slater has a Mats Sundin lunchbox... now that was priceless.

Other than that, I think that the Jays can sell Koskie as being Canadian, but I hope they don't bring hockey into it.

http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=3105346&l_id=46&t_id=547
Sad news. Brian Traxler passed away recently at the age of 37. COMN.

Traxler had by all accounts a great swing, and Bill James had him figured for stardom. It did not materialize, as Traxler ended up getting only a cup of coffee from the Dodgers.

Koskie will be on the Fan "within the hour", for anyone interested.

So, yes they still have to pay them, but it's almost negligible in the big picture.

You're right, of course. For some reason I was thinking of guys who were on the DL all year (but still on the active roster) and didn't play in a game.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/players/57/
Or will a small-town Manitoban be considered an outsider in our cynical, jaded metropolis?

They seem to have taken to this small town Saskatchewaner... Saskatchewanian.... Saskatchewan... guy pretty well. Hopefuly they do the same for Koskie. COMN

PS. The Timbits in the dugout was a damn funny. I like the idea of a marketing campagin showing Koskie as annoyingly Canadian. Riding a canoe with wheels to the stadium a la Kids in the Hall, trying to start Anne Murray singalongs in the dugout. Good angle Coach.

trying to start Anne Murray singalongs in the dugout

And then I want to see the look on O-Dog's face...

Tee-hee.

And then I want to see the look on O-Dog's face...

A whole series of Koskie N' O-Dog shorts! It's like Due South all over again!

Have them rooming together on the road like the odd couple. A series of very cheesy sitcom like shorts that always end with O-Dog looking to the camera and saying "Say WHAT?" with hokey music.

O-Dog: Yo homeslice! Y'all get those shades I need for the game?
Koskie: Yeah! Well I didnt know if you wanted Venitian or regular so I got both, I laid them out on your bed.
O-Dog: Say WHAT?? *muted trumpet sound*

This stuff writes itself

Koskie 'n' O-Dog... I'm speechless. That's brilliant.

Jobu, join me in the QOTD thread.

I'm still giggling, Hillbilly Zombie. There's Corey sitting in the dugout, humming:

So spread your tiny wings and fly away
And take the snow back with you
where it came from on that day

All these heads slowly turn to look at him...

Due South is awesome! I watched it for the first time in about 5 years the other day, I forgot how much I enjoyed that show.

And The Koskie and the O-Dog ideas have some *serious* comedy potential...

Has Koskie been on the Fan yet?

Credit where it's due for the Timbits idea. Yesterday, I recycled an ancient quote, which I think Twain borrowed from Andrew Lang, to poke fun at my own unsophisticated forecasting. Don't look to me for original thoughts; I stared losing brain cells in '67.

See? Can't even spell "started" any more.

The Brewers have had a nice offseason so far. However, if reports are true, Melvin's made a big mistake, IMHO, in turning down a Marlon Byrd for Jeff Bennett proposal from Philly.

they brought in Koskie because he brings a lot to the dressing room.

koskie sounds a little like dirk diggler. didn't know that was a franchise priority...

You're right, of course. For some reason I was thinking of guys who were on the DL all year (but still on the active roster) and didn't play in a game.

Thanks guys, so when it comes to a Chacin etc, I will assume most of a year at 50K and a month or so at 300K for about 100K

and I think its also safe to assume that a rookie like Frederick has a "two-way" contract so he's only paid 50K again once he's returned to AAA..

Does anybody know where I can see the Koskie Press Conference?

"Ryan Howard isn't making any demands, but he hopes the Phillies will trade him to a team that will allow him to play."

This trade demand stuff is really getting moronic. I mean Jeebus, minor leaguers are demanding trades now??? I wouldn't want a guy with that sort of attitude on my roster, whatever his talents.

Lee, of course he's going to want to be traded. All he wants is a chance to play everyday and show he can compete. That's the kind of player you want.

If the last couple of days are any indication, it appears that you and I see things exactly opposite.
:)

Note: I realize it says he "isn't making any demands", but come on. If an athlete publicly states that he "hopes" to be traded, what's the difference?

minor leaguers are demanding trades now?

Its not as bad as it sounds. He's a first baseman on the same team that employs Jim Thome. Here's what he said:

Basically, you have to look at the reality of the situation. Jim Thome is a great guy and a great player. He's an All-Star. And I like playing for the Phillies. They're a great organization.

But I'm just looking for an opportunity to contribute at the big-league level and it doesn't appear that can happen here. My goal is to get to the big leagues and help a team. I'm just looking for a chance.

He obviously isn't going to get that chance in Philadelphia. He's 25 years old, and he hit 48 home runs last year. He should be in the major leagues, you know it, I know it, he knows it, and Ed Wade knows it too.

Lee, of course he's going to want to be traded. All he wants is a chance to play everyday and show he can compete. That's the kind of player you want.

So loyalty to the organization means nothing to you? I want guys who want to play too, of course. But you have to go about it the right way, which means that if you're not getting to play as much as you'd like, when you DO get the chance, you just go out and play as hard as you can and you force the organization to give you more PT by virture of your performance. And when you DON'T get that chance, you sit on the bench, or play in the minors, or whatever, and shut the hell up, rather than spouting off to anyone who will listen that you want to go elsewhere because you're not being given the PT you somehow think you deserve.

He obviously isn't going to get that chance in Philadelphia. He's 25 years old, and he hit 48 home runs last year. He should be in the major leagues, you know it, I know it, he knows it, and Ed Wade knows it too.

Yeah, you're right. I'm just really annoyed by all of the whining and trade demands/requests that seems to be so popular in pro sports right now.

you force the organization to give you more PT by virture of your performance.

The only way Ryan Howard can force Philadelphia to give him more PT is if he hires someone to break Jim Thome's legs.

Meanwhile the clock is ticking on his career.

I'm just really annoyed by all of the whining and trade demands/requests that seems to be so popular in pro sports right now.

OK, I know that feeling, too. (Paging Mr Carter? Mr Carter?)

Are there any rumblings on what the Phillies are going to do with Howard, one way or another?

Speaking of trade demands, and the lack thereof, it should not be overlooked that Eric Hinske has been an amazing class act this week. The Jays just signed a free agent to replace him at third base, and reportedly have been involving him in trade talks for several days. How does he react? He tells the GM he's ready and willing to switch to first base, and asks the GM not to give up on him and to keep him with the club.

Now granted, after his last two seasons, he doesn't have a whole lot of leverage. And I'm still not thrilled about the production he's likely to post at first base in '05. But Hinske has been a top-class team guy throughout this experience, and accordingly has earned a lot of leeway next season from me, and I hope from others as well.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=Saskatchewanian
That would be Saskatchewan-ian (COMN). From a true blue SK-ian.

Make sure to click on the speaker for the proper pronunciation.

But Hinske has been a top-class team guy throughout this experience, and accordingly has earned a lot of leeway next season from me, and I hope from others as well.

I second that. If he fails to make good on the promise of 2002, it won't be because his attitude got in the way. I hope that an improved Hinske might be the "second bat" Ricciardi has talked about getting.

I'm with Jordan on Hinske's attitude. Though it doesn't surprise me; I've never heard him say a selfish word.

I just wish he could translate all that good-guyness into hit-ballness.
If you follow.

http://tsn.tsnmax.ca/magazine/feature2.asp?bg=baseball3&story=020412_twins&col=heatherington&length=2&page=1
Nice little story on Koskie, (Comm), he's a pretty good athlete, recruited by D-1 hockey and a former outstanding CIS volleyball player. Volleyball is very poular in Manitoba, but I'm glad Cory chose baseball. Scott Koskie is the captain of Canada's national volleyball team, wonder if this is Cory's younger brother?

Hinske has been a top-class team guy throughout this experience, and accordingly has earned a lot of leeway next season from me, and I hope from others as well.

Probably a lot easier to be graceful if you know you're getting your 13 mil regardless. I give him credit for the way he's accepted this, but don't really see how it follows that he should get a lot of leeway if he puts up another awful season.

Interesting though, someone else here with ties to the team had said that they didn't think too much of his attitude. I've heard some very nice things about him though too by people who've met him.

A whole series of Koskie N' O-Dog shorts! It's like Due South all over again!

That's a fantastic idea.
Several comedic notches above "hey, check out Hinske's butt!"

There is now a separate (and very active) Corey Koskie Ad Campaign thread.

Leeway for a .230/.300/.410 season? No. Leeway for trying his damnedest to make good on that $13 million? Yup.

Here are the Koskie contract details, from the official press release:

Koskie will receive a $3 million signing bonus and salaries of $2.5 million in 2005, $5.25 million 2006 and $5.75 million in 2007. The salary for 2008, the option year, is $6.5 million dollars.

I'm curious about the signing bonus. Is it paid out immediately? Does it count against the 2005 budget?

I'm not even close to 100 per cent sure on this Jonny, but I was always under the assumption that signing bonuses weren't included in the team's budget (and it seems to work out pretty close to that since the team loses 2 draft picks anyways). If so, it looks good and it sure would mean more $$$ to fill other holes.

His 2.5 mil salary in 2005 is pretty low allowing the Jays to make other moves to fill their needs. If the Jays budget is 14 mil, that leaves JP with 11.5 mil to spend. And then if Clement signs and gets 8 mil the first year of his contract, tha leaves 3.5 mil to get Koch and Kline. Of course there's no more money to get a bat though, and a trade has to happen.

Unless the Jays payroll expands, the payroll 2 seasons from now already looks pretty high.

Yes Jonny the structure of the salary in the first year is a bit odd what with the bonus, I do remember reading a long time ago that Canadian tax law's regarding bonuses are a little different and more beneficial than those in the States. This is far from my area of expertise however.

Leeway for a .230/.300/.410 season? No. Leeway for trying his damnedest to make good on that $13 million? Yup.

Other than the fat season, has that ever really been an issue though? I'm sick of watching him suck, but I give him a world of credit for his effort and passion. The only problem is you can see the exact same thing at pretty much any level...I'd prefer a guy who wasn't as visibly into it, maybe said the wrong thing occasionally and hit .300/.380/.500. It'd lead to more wins.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1946057
His 2.5 mil salary in 2005 is pretty low allowing the Jays to make other moves to fill their needs.

I would assume that as far as the Blue Jays budget goes, they're paying Koskie $5.5 million in 2005. Its structured this way to give him a tax break.

Other news: Curt Schilling doesn't think he'll be ready by Opening Day. COMN.

Doesn't it look like there's a Window of Opportunity here? Don't you wish the team wasn't coming off a 94 loss season?

Here's what we have with Hinske:

One good season where he won Rookie of the Year

One season where he broke his hand and played hurt

One bad season

Why is it that the bad season is weighted so much more heavily than the good season in people's analysis of whether or not Hinske will have a good or bad '05?

I would be surprised if the structure of the Koskie deal leads to more payroll flexibility. A signing bonus is usually precise what the name implies - a bonus paid upon the execution of a contract as an inducement to bring the other party on board. This way, Koskie gets $3 million immediately, rather than having it prorated over the season. This sort of deal is actually slightly more expensive to the team, though it will reduce the cost of the team's payroll throughout the season. The only way this "expands" the budget for next year, I would think, is if Rogers has agreed to pay the bonus from corporate assets otherwise allocated.

Why is it that the bad season is weighted so much more heavily than the good season in people's analysis of whether or not Hinske will have a good or bad '05?

Cause the good season was 3 years ago, and not last year.

I saw the press conference and was struck by something that JP said. I apologize if this has been brought up already or been talked to death in the past. Anyways, he suggested that Hinske was excellent defensively with his glove (left hand), but was terrible defensively with his throwing arm (right hand). I was left with the impression that JP thought that Hinske's long-term position was 1B regardless of what team he may be on, because 1B is a "one-handed position" (Hinske's good hand).

JP also noted that the Jays may be moving from an all-offense team (2003) to more of a pitching and defense team. I suppose when you lose Delgado you have to say this! Is it possible that JP views Hinske's move to 1B as a positive for the team as a whole since his D might allow us to overlook his offensive shortcomings? He still has a good batting eye, so if he can bring that average up over .270 and hit 20+ HR's with a good number of doubles he may still find a way to justify that contract. Or maybe I just have visions of his rookie year in my head...

I don't mind if JP moves him, but I don't want to see him just GIVEN away. I think he has a chance for a decent bounceback year. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make.

"Why is it that the bad season is weighted so much more heavily than the good season in people's analysis of whether or not Hinske will have a good or bad '05?"

First off sports is a what have you done for me lately business, and second I believe the bad season is weighted more because of what Hinske said at Spring Training. I vividly remember seeing a report on the Score where Hinske said he didn't perform as expected the previous year because he was battling an injury and played hurt. But at Spring Training he declared himself 100% healthy and in the best shape of his life. He said he worked extremely hard in the off-season and was ready for a big season.

As we all saw last year Hinske didn't fail because he was lazy or injured.

Why is it that the bad season is weighted so much more heavily than the good season in people's analysis of whether or not Hinske will have a good or bad '05?

Because it's the most recent ;) and it was a season in which Hinske looked completely lost at the plate. He didn't just struggle at the plate, his swing/stance/approach was attrocious and it really needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. I hope he can get everything sorted out and back on track, but it will take a lot of work on behalf of the coaching staff and Hinske himself.

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cle/news/cle_news.jsp?ymd=20041214&content_id=922368&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp
The Indians signed Jose Hernandez. To make room on the 40 man roster they designated Josh Phelps for assignment.
COMN

Why is it that the bad season is weighted so much more heavily than the good season in people's analysis of whether or not Hinske will have a good or bad '05?

Maybe because it's more recent?
For whatever reason I think Hinske will have a good season this year. As someone else mentioned, hopefully him rebounding will be the other bat we're looking for.

...or what BCMike said, two posts earlier.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Jays make a run at Phelps if he's released. Platoon Phelps with Olerud at 1B or DH.

Josh Phelps sure would be a nice platoon partner for Hinske at first, and on the cheap too. You know, seems like just the sort of deal Ricciardi would love to make. Forgotten former top prospect, platoon masher for Hinske... Any hope in Hell that they could sign him to a 1 year deal on the cheap? He may only be getting minor league deals with invites to Spring Training, would it really hurt to guarantee him about 800,000?

I'd take Phelps and definitely platoon him with the Cat at DH. I think you could get pretty good production from that tandem.

I'd bring back Phelps in a country second!

If I were the Jays, with Koskie now signed and delivered, I would be discussing a trade with Seattle: Scott Spiezio, Ryan Franklin for Eric Hinske and a prospect.

Spiezio had a bad season (but Hinske had two) and he is miscast as a third baseman... He has gold glove potential at first base and his versatility could be valuable.
Franklin is short on stuff as a starter but he could make a good long man out of the pen.
The trade solves both the Mariners and the Jays problems and the money ends up being very close to a wash.

I just don't see how, with a 25 man roster, we have the space to platoon at DH

the team loses 2 draft picks anyways

Just 1 draft pick. The Twins will get the Jays second-rounder. They'll also get a sandwich pick between the first and second rounds, but that does not come out of the Jays pocket.

Doesn't it look like there's a Window of Opportunity here? Don't you wish the team wasn't coming off a 94 loss season?

Schilling down, Martinez gone, Giambi down, Milton-Wright-Womack trying to redeem the Yankees? I definitely hear ya! But I think the Sox will still end up being a very very strong team. I'll enjoy the Yankee collapse anyways, and they don't figure to be any better in 2006.

(Paging Mr Carter? Mr Carter?)

LOL! The funny thing is, the Raps have played most of the season without much in the way of significant contributions from Carter or Rose anyways (partly due to long periods of pine-riding, partly due to simple ineffectiveness), so at this point I would pretty much welcome getting whatever we can for them. The trouble is, I can't think of a competent GM who would really want to give away that much for Carter, given his continuing injury problems and consistently declining production. That said, thank God for Isiah Thomas ;-).

Speaking of trade demands, and the lack thereof, it should not be overlooked that Eric Hinske has been an amazing class act this week. The Jays just signed a free agent to replace him at third base, and reportedly have been involving him in trade talks for several days. How does he react? He tells the GM he's ready and willing to switch to first base, and asks the GM not to give up on him and to keep him with the club.

Absolutely. I really do like Hinske a lot. He's always seemed like a tough, hard working kind of player, and certainly if Eric could return to something resembling his rookie form next year at 1B it would be absolutely huge for the Jays' present and future chances to be competitive. It's particularly good to hear that he's still just as dedicated to helping the team after the season he went through.

I just don't see how, with a 25 man roster, we have the space to platoon at DH

There are two keys to doing this
1) A 6-man bullpen rather than 7, as the Jays have used the past couple years
2) DHs who are not totally gloveless. I'd love to have Cat & Colbrunn as the DH, with Frank being the 5th outfielder and Greg being the backup 1st baseman.

It's also easier if you're not carrying an all-glove guy. As I've said before, I'd way rather pay Barry Larkin $1.5M than John McDonald his likely $350K. I hope J.P. has given Larkin's agent a call. It's a long shot, but the question has to be asked.

I'll enjoy the Yankee collapse anyways, and they don't figure to be any better in 2006.

Somehow, I don't see a Yankee collapse next season. Jaret Wright aside, I like what they've done since October. Even Wright could certainly surprise; if he manages to maintain what he was doing last year, and figures out how to carry that success into the playoffs, it'll be a good deal.

It appears to me that Hinske's biggest problem is that he is too intense and hard on himself. I mean he's cursed more times on my television screen after bad at-bats then the entire cast of Pulp Fiction has... and I've watched the movie more than once.

1) A 6-man bullpen rather than 7, as the Jays have used the past couple years

Well, at times over the last couple years the Jays haven't seemed to have enough arms down there with 7 guys ;-). That said, it's less a problem of quantity than of quality, and of having a manager who is at least minimally competent in using his bullpen, which I hope Gibbons is.

someone else here with ties to the team had said that they didn't think too much of his attitude.

It wasn't me. (I just checked to make sure.)

I did hear something negative about Hinske from someone associated with another team with another league, but I didn't repeat it here anyway.

For whatever reason I think Hinske will have a good season this year.

I'm inclined to agree, but I don't know why.

The strangest thing about Hinske's 2004 season? It seems reasonable to assume that when injuries took Delgado and Wells out of the lineup, it a) put pressure on Hinske to produce in their stead, and b) made him the center of the opposing pitcher's attention, there being absolutely no one else to worry about. Intuitively, this would seem to explain why he struggled for much of last year.

Except that June and July were by far his best months. Go figure.

Jaret Wright aside, I like what they've done since October.

To each his own. I think Womack will be one of the worst second basemen in the league if he plays regularly, I think they're blindly signing Milton because he's the best lefty available and not because he's actually good, and I think Jaret Wright will turn right back into a pumpkin as fast as you can say "Leo Mazzone".

Granted, they could really help themselves by signing Delgado, and that would be the most painful thing possible for a Jays fan. Also, adding Delgado or Beltran maintains their strong offence, which makes Milton a very worthwhile innings-eater.

I remember Mike Wilner saying that Hinske was quite the primadonna(sp?) in his first year but that his attitude had changed considerably for the better after that.

I remember Mike Wilner saying that Hinske was quite the primadonna(sp?) in his first year but that his attitude had changed considerably for the better after that.

Maybe he should go back to being being his old self then b/c he hasn't done much ever since.

I did hear something negative about Hinske from someone associated with another team with another league, but I didn't repeat it here anyway.

What's odd is that I believe you were the person I had in mind when I said that...maybe I'm wrong, and no one has said anything bad about him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=klapisch_bob&id=1945987
This is unbelievable.

[Omar Minaya] went so far as to seek the Yankees' counsel on Sunday, asking a high-ranking official if he should offer Martinez that critical fourth year.COMN

He asked the Yankees if he should a Boston starter? The Yankees?

Well, what did the Yankees tell him? God in heaven, what do you think they told him? They told him to sign that guy who won 16 games for the team we're trying to beat.

You go, Omar. Whatever it takes.

I say again: Josh Towers for David Wright. He just might do it....

Just posted on Rotoworld:

According to the Los Angeles Times, the Angels' offer to Matt Clement is worth $21 million over three years.
It's going to take more than that now. It's believed that Toronto has a better offer on the table, and Cleveland, which is near Matt Clement's home, has made a similar proposal. The Red Sox, White Sox and Dodgers could also be in the running for Clement.

Believe it or not.

Did anyone wind up catching Koskie on the Fan? I missed it.

What's odd is that I believe you were the person I had in mind when I said that

I suspected as much!

Anyway, I didn't report it at the time I heard it. I could have done so later. And again - what I heard didn't come from anyone remotely close to the Blue Jays.

Further on Hinske's puzzling performance last year - maybe the pressure is actually what he needs. He had his best season so far when he was trying to establish himelf as a ML player. He played his best last year when the team's two best hitters were hurt and he was all that was left.

Clement may be T.O. bound after all.

Named For Hank - I think the answer to your rhetorical question on Hinske is that it's the most recent season that was terrible and hence:

- emotionally - recent events are what most people remember most clearly

- statistically - most performance predictor models I've seen weigh the most recent season's production more heavily than earlier season's

I think Womack will be one of the worst second basemen in the league if he plays regularly

Well, he won't be great, but he has a good chance to be a decent upgrade over what they go from 2B last season, wouldn't you say?

I think they're blindly signing Milton because he's the best lefty available and not because he's actually good

Well, for one thing, Milton to the Yankees is not a done deal yet. I agree that if they do get him, they will probably be paying more than he's worth, motivated largely by their desire to be "more left-handed" in their pitching staff, but to say that Milton isn't actually good is quite a stretch.

I think Jaret Wright will turn right back into a pumpkin as fast as you can say "Leo Mazzone".

That's my concern with that deal as well (that, and his decidedly unimpressive performance under pressure in the postseason). That said, as a long-time Cleveland Indians fan, I watched Wright for several years before his arm trouble, and his potential was always tremendous. I think it's risky, but I would discount the possibility of him sustaining and even improving upon his performance of last season, either.

Granted, they could really help themselves by signing Delgado, and that would be the most painful thing possible for a Jays fan. Also, adding Delgado or Beltran maintains their strong offence, which makes Milton a very worthwhile innings-eater.

Actually, I don't see the offense as a problem whether they sign a big-time offensive FA or not. As long as they've got Jeter, A-Rod, Posada (who they really shouldn't consider trading IMO), Sheff, and Matsui, they'll be fine. That said, being the Yankees, they'll almost certainly sign a big-time offensive FA ;-).

Most importantly, though, I think that by acquiring Felix Rodriguez and Mike Stanton, getting rid of the pathetic Felix Heredia, and having Steve Karsay back for a full season, the Yanks' bullpen is (on paper, at least) stronger and deeper than it's been since the end of their championship run, which should help to eliminate the overuse of Quantrill, Gordon, and Rivera that was a big factor in their collapse last season.

Great news re: Clement, BUT it scares me seeing that the Red Sox are still interested, b/c if they want him, they'll probably get him. Hopefully Clement's ties w/ Arnsberg will put our deal over the top. And hopefully SOON!

Oops. Re: Wright, that should read "I think it's risky, but I would not discount the possibility of him sustaining and even improving upon his performance of last season, either."

he has a good chance to be a decent upgrade over what they go from 2B last season, wouldn't you say?

I don't really see that.

Cairo in 122 games: .292, .346, .417
Womack in 145 games: .307, .349, .385

Of course, Womack is also five years older and twice as expensive.

But you're absolutely right about the bullpen. F-Rod, Stanton, and Karsay should take a lot of the strain off QuanGorMo (as the Yankee fans in our midst like to say.) And a deep bullpen just might come in handy. Again.

On the one hand, I'm surprised the Indians have given up on Phelps so quickly after trading for him. On the other hand, they gave him only 76 at-bats after acquiring him in early August. On the third hand, he hit .303/.338/.579 in those 76 AB. On the fourth hand, he walked 4 times and struck out 20 in that stretch.

You could argue that if the Jays haven't gotten any better ideas of how to rescue Phelps' career in the last few months, there's not much point in picking him up. And Phelps might well have no interest in returning to the team that abandoned him. But at the end of the day, Phelps hit .309/.358/.618 in 152 AB against lefties last year, and owns a .302/.366/.523 mark against southpaws lifetime. With Frank Catalanotto best suited (a) not to play the field and (b) not to face lefties, Phelps would appear to be about as ideal a signing for this team as you could ask for.

And here's something to chew on: in very limited action (less than 40 AB each), Phelps actually hit RH better than LH as an Indian.

I don't think Phelps would be happy to come back to Toronto to be honest. Not after he was given up on. (IMO)

If it meant playing in the Bigs, I don't think Phelps would really care that much. It's a business, he has to know that by now.

But you're absolutely right about the bullpen. F-Rod, Stanton, and Karsay should take a lot of the strain off QuanGorMo (as the Yankee fans in our midst like to say.) And a deep bullpen just might come in handy. Again.

QuanGorMo! That's priceless :). Basically, the point is this: for all of the well-publicized (and greatly overblown, IMO) struggles of NY's starting rotation last year, they would have made it to the WS (and probably won it all) if the pen had been able to hold the lead in either Game 4 or Game 5 against the Sox. Of course, you're probably still going to want to throw Gordon and Rivera (definitely Rivera) out there in those situations, but the difference next season will be that Mo's arm won't be falling off from the excessive workload come October.

You could argue that if the Jays haven't gotten any better ideas of how to rescue Phelps' career in the last few months, there's not much point in picking him up. And Phelps might well have no interest in returning to the team that abandoned him. But at the end of the day, Phelps hit .309/.358/.618 in 152 AB against lefties last year, and owns a .302/.366/.523 mark against southpaws lifetime. With Frank Catalanotto best suited (a) not to play the field and (b) not to face lefties, Phelps would appear to be about as ideal a signing for this team as you could ask for.

As bad a time as he was having last season, I still thought that trading Phelps was bloody idiotic. If he would want to come back, the Jays would be stupid not to give him another shot.

And hopefully SOON!

Yeah, I'm pretty much getting to the point where I just want to see something done with Clement, and hopefully with us.

How does it work with Phelps? The Indians have 10 days to trade him or release him. Is he free to sign with anybody at that point?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1945495
The Indians have 10 days to trade him Phelps or release him.

I'm thinking why would anybody trade for someone if the other guy has to release him if they can't make a trade?

Well, to make sure you get him, I suppose. If you want him. And I'd want him - there's a lot of raw talent there.

In other news, the Red Sox are cutting ties with the doctor who patched together Schilling's ankle this October.COMN.

Seems they didn't like a) that he told the world that they wouldn't be able to do it again if the WS went any longer; b) they was some DUI business that's being dismissed today, but no one likes that stuff anyway; c) the Red Sox want to be affiliated with a team of specialists rather than one all-purpose doctor.

It's a business, he has to know that by now.

One hears this all the time.

It's true, but it's a fragment of the truth. Baseball is a business. It's also a sport, it's also a game, it's also an entertainment, it's also a public spectacle.

An idle diversion, a complete waste of time... and so on.

The game is large. It contains multitudes. And it's more than any single one of the nouns I've just rattled off.

Carlos Delgado wants to go to a place to settle for a while. If he signs with the Yankees, it just takes one April/May slump before he gets run out of town by the Yankee fans who also don't have the nicest words for him right now.

There would be alot of pressure on him to be successful, moreso than a place like Seattle.

Speaking as a Manitoban, Koskie is huge here and signing in Toronto is seen as a great move. Although, not because there is any added coverage, because all we get over here is minnesota coverage.(and they are definatley dissapointed). Koskie is a great Canadian and a very good 3B, good move T.O

By Yankee demise, do you mean only winning 90 - 95 games??? The Jays may be better at 2 offensive positions ( cf/2B.) If they sign Beltran it goes down to one. The bullpen is better top to bottom. What is the quote The news of my death is greatly exaggerated. I don't see signing Koskie as speeding up the process of catching the Yanks ( or Sox for that matter.)

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cle/news/cle_press_release.jsp?ymd=20041214&content_id=922428&vkey=pr_cle&fext=.jsp
Tom Mastny is the PTBNL in the McDonald trade. COMN

If he signs with the Yankees, it just takes one April/May slump before he gets run out of town by the Yankee fans

Not so. You don't have to go too far back to the retirement of Don Mattingly and the Yanks' controversial acquisition of Tino "Who's He?" Martinez to see how it works. TiMo hit about .140 through mid-May his first year and was booed mercilessly -- as would happen in any town. But he was hardly "run out of town" .. he rebounded to the point where he is now a beloved figure in the Bronx.

And Carlos wouldn't have the replacing-a-legend added pressure that Tino had, anyway. Giambi was good, but is yet to win a ring with the Yankees (or at all, for that matter) and besides, he's being shunted aside under such a dark cloud.

And I really don't think the alleged "Aneti-American" attitude will play a role; this team lived through Joe Pepitone and Jim Bouton; i wouldn't worry about anything unless Delgado went on WFAN and said outright "George is an idiot" (Bush OR Steinbrenner).

I find the worries about the anti-American thing a bit overblown as well. Isn't New York one of the most liberal cities in MLB? Outside of somewhere like Boston or places on the West Coast, I'd have a hard time thinking of a place that's perceived as being more liberal.

Tom Mastny is the PTBNL in the McDonald trade.

Nasty Mastny for the second coming of St Rey?

Ack Thbbbt!

Wow, McDonald for Mastny is a TERRIBLE deal for the Jays. What was JP thinking with this one? Good glovemen are a dime a dozen. Why give up a solid pitching prospect for him????

Tom Mastny is the PTBNL in the McDonald trade.

That REALLY sucks. I wouldn't have given Mastny up for a McDonald, no matter how good his glove is. I was thinking more along the lines of DeJong or Buzachero. Mastny doesn't have really great stuff and he hasn't been young for any of the leagues he's been in, but you can't argue with his numbers so far.

Mastny's not a lot, but he's enough to make me nervous that J.P. is serious about having McDonald on the big league roster. Tom led all Blue Jay minor leaguers in Pitching Runs in 2004 (by a wide margin, 35 to 22 over Ramirez and Chacin). Bleh.

the Yanks' controversial acquisition of Tino "Who's He?" Martinez

I see where you're coming from, however the problem is that Yankee fans are too familiar with Carlos Delgado and his stances regarding "God Bless America" which doesn't sit very well with most Yankee fans.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article.jsp?content=20041214_111041_4652
Interesting that the Jays might have some interest in Moises Alou.

If the Jays ever sign him,I wouldn't shake his hand unless I saw him wash them.

nvm

to say that Milton isn't actually good is quite a stretch

In his last two full seasons (2002 and 2004), he's pitched 372 innings with an ERA of 4.8 and an ERA+ of 92. The fact that he throws a lot of innings (his 2003 knee injury appears to be behind him) makes him a slightly above average starter in my book. Not "good". As an apparently healthy 29-year-old pitcher, he could still improve.

I'm actually not all that fussed about losing Mastny. He has posted stellar W-L numbers, true, but his BB/K and K/IP numbers have been only good, not great, and his raw stuff is far from overpowering. Remember also that he was 23 all last season in Low-A Ball -- that's two years older than Brandon League, for example, who was in the majors in September. I think Mastny profiles to be a little better than Cameron Reimers, and while that's not chopped liver, it's also not irreplaceable. And don't forget: this organization is overflowing with pitchers at A-Ball and below -- Mastny would have struggled for a rotation spot at Dunedin, and a 24-year-old pitcher at Charleston isn't to be taken too seriously. I don't really have a problem with this deal.

I don't want to see (Hinske) just GIVEN away.

Me neither. Lots of excitable armchair GMs would have traded Kevin Cash for a cracked helmet, and look what he turned out to be worth. It's not Roto.

To understand how much of a defensive upgrade Hinske will be at first base, try to imagine Delgado playing third with a smaller glove. Still laughing? OK, now picture Eric, used to those wicked short hops at the hot corner, saving the rest of his infielders errors by scooping throws in the dirt with the trapper. Compare his first-step quickness to that of the older guy with the wonky knee. On two steps and a dive, Hinske's going to cover twice as much ground laterally. There's a huge difference in reachable pop flies. Throwing? No comparison.

Hudson can cheat a step or two toward the middle, Adams has far more range than Gomez and at least as much as Woodward, Koskie's a premier defender at third. No wonder Halladay is happy and Clement's interested. Derek Lowe would love that infield, too. If the rumoured FieldTurf installation slows it down, even better.

I'm not suggesting Hinske will hit enough to be considered an all-star 1B. I don't expect his hitting to get any worse, and he just might rebound. In other words, he's comparable to Mientkiewicz. I'll be happy if J.P. can move him, not out of desperation or "addition by subtraction" but in a deal that improves the OPS from that position without totally abandoning defence. If not, 5-4 wins still count the same as 7-6 wins.

The only criticism I've ever made of Eric's attitude or temperament is that he seems to be highly emotional and somewhat self-critical. Those characteristics may be assets in football, if they make you more intense and determined, but "trying too hard" is a definite liability in baseball. It's much easier to get out of a slump if you can stay on an even keel. Maybe he'll take things more in stride as he matures.

If (Phelps) would want to come back, the Jays would be stupid not to give him another shot.

I'm not holding my breath, because they already have a lefty-mashing DH who can capably back up several positions, but if Josh did return, Crozier for nothing would look pretty good in hindsight.

Is Phelps a Super-Two? That would explain this move, and the original trade. Not many teams will want to offer him arbitration. As a FA pickup for about $500 K, he's very interesting, but he might get well over a million in a hearing.

Tom Mastny is the PTBNL in the McDonald trade.

Bummer. I'm sure the Tribe had a choice of several lower-level prospects, and they are sharp enough to take a good one. Turning a 2003 11th-round pick into a 2005 major-league utility man isn't such a terrible thing, especially with Hill, Banks, Marcum, Vermilyea and Vito among the remaining prospects from a great draft.

Good luck to Tom in his new organization.

Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports is repoting that the Angels have signed Paul Byrd. Could mean that they have dropped out of the Clement sweepstakes.

Moises Alou, who'll be 39 in July, posted a .293/.361/.557 line (128 OPS+) in 600 AB last year, and was paid $9.5M. On a one-year deal at exactly one-third of that amount, I would gladly bring him aboard as a full-time DH.

Moises Alou, who'll be 39 in July, posted a .293/.361/.557 line (128 OPS+) in 600 AB last year, and was paid $9.5M. On a one-year deal at exactly one-third of that amount, I would gladly bring him aboard as a full-time DH.

But would you shake his hand to get it done? (He pees on his hands to get rid of blisters.)

Smirnoff, my friend, I can pretty much guarantee that any major-league hand you've ever shaken has been somewhere you'd rather not know about.

I'm not suggesting Hinske will hit enough to be considered an all-star 1B.

Coacj, I agree, but if he turns out to be, say, Wes Parker or Jim Spencer -- look'em up, you kids who think MLB started in '77 -- then the Jays would be plenty happy.

... but his BB/K and K/IP numbers have been only good, not great...
Mastny has averaged 2.25 walks per nine innings and 8.87 strike outs. That's not better then good?

Halladay averaged 2.59, 6.48 in the majors over his career, and 2.97, 5.92 in the minor leagues (including 2.5 6.0 in single-A).

Josh Phelps is eligible for arbitration, which is why the Indians have been having trouble finding takers for him... everyone expected him to be non-tendered.

Alou is a good pick up if the Jays offer him a one-year $2 million contract with $5 million in incentives. But I don't think that will get things done. Darn.

Why not offer Alou more? Especially if you can't get Clement signed. It's the 2nd bat that JP has promised, and more importantly it lets Cat DH and lets Sparky play his role as the 4th OF.

Re: my last post, I mean more money, not years.

I undestand the Mets are hard after Alou to hit behind Piazza. not that the Mets have show a prediliction for overpaying ...

With the Halo's signing Byrd and if they land Clement, Washburn will be on the trade market.

If the Halo's are willing to pick up some of the salary Washburn is a guy I wouldn't mind seeing in a Jays uni. It could give the Jays 2 Lefty starters.

Halladay averaged 2.59, 6.48 in the majors over his career, and 2.97, 5.92 in the minor leagues (including 2.5 6.0 in single-A).

The difference is that Halladay was 19 and did this in high A while Mastny was 23 and did this in low A. I like Mastny but the Jays gave us their opinion of him when they didn't promote him to Dunedin during the season.

Mastny has averaged 2.25 walks per nine innings and 8.87 strike outs. That's not better then good?

Those K and BB numbers aren't bad at all by themselves, but they're problematic for a pitcher his age, at the levels he's been pitching. Even in his senior year in college, Mastny struck out only 103 batters in 124 IP. More importantly, he's pretty much a finesse pitcher: Doc's repertoire is far more powerful than Mastny's (incidentally, Halladay's minor-league numbers were not very special -- as an overpromoted 20-21-year-old in Syracuse, he posted a 242 IP - 239 H - 106 BB - 135 K line. His subsequent struggles in Toronto shouldn't have been that surprising).

Again, I'm not saying Mastny won't be useful to an organization, just that he's not the kind of prospect you need to worry about losing.

Count me in on Alou - a Adams-Hudson-Wells-Koskie-Alou-Cat-Rios-Hinske-Zaun lineup is on paper, pretty good and very balanced

Is there a link for the Byrd signing? Hopefully this will pull the Angles right out of the Clement sweepstakes now that they have Byrd.

Colone
Washburn
Escobar
Byrd
Lackey/Ortiz/Sele

Why would they want another starter?

I'm actually not all that fussed about losing Mastny.

I'm not either, it just seems the return could have been higher for Mastny than a no-hit infield that was just designated for assignment.

And he had the cool nickname working for him.

Just a thought but if you're considering 39 year old Alou at, at least 2 mill for 1 year. What about Jeromy Burnitz age 35 .283/.356/.559. He made 1.25 mill last year. Now I'm not that experienced as most of you, but this looks interesting to me.

Why would they want another starter?

Lackey/Ortiz/Sele.

Seriously, Clement would still be an excellent addition to that staff.

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3248294
COMN for link to Fox Sports website re: Byrd.

T Dog ~ Burnitz is a Coors man...

Count me in on Alou - a Adams-Hudson-Wells-Koskie-Alou-Cat-Rios-Hinske-Zaun lineup is on paper, pretty good and very balanced

That would look very nice along with a rotation of Halladay, Clement, Lilly, Bush and whoever grabs the #5 slot.

Dare to dream.

Dunno if this was posted but I got it off rotoworld. Good news for the Jays?

According to the Los Angeles Times, the Angels' offer to Matt Clement is worth $21 million over three years.
It's going to take more than that now. It's believed that Toronto has a better offer on the table, and Cleveland, which is near Matt Clement's home, has made a similar proposal. The Red Sox, White Sox and Dodgers could also be in the running for Clement.

Well I found it puzzling last year, that Mastny was not promoted last year. If he was promoted and struggled, I would feel more comfortable with this trade. I guess only time will Tell.

Dunedin, will be jam packed next year as well.

1. David Purcey
2. Zach Jackson
3. Justin James
4. Danny Core
5. Davis Romero
6. Kurt Isenberg/John Macdonald/DJ Hanson?

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3248294
"Why would they want another starter?"

COMN for Byrd signing.

Sele and Ortiz are both FA's and the Halo's have no interest in either of them. Even with Byrd signed they're still going after Clement.

A Starting Five of:

Colon
Escobar
Clement
Lackey
Byrd

looks real fine.

If Clement goes on board the odd man out is going to be Washburn.

Yeah true anybody who hits in Colorado will have inflated numbers,so Alou is probably the better bet.

I would hope that Ramon Ortiz is being targetted as a backup, should the Clement deal fall through. IMO, he looks poised to have a big year.

He'd look pretty sharp with the Jays infield, and has shown a preference to starting, something it looks like won't happen with the Angels' very sharp-looking rotation. What's the info on his status for next year?

hockey and a former outstanding CIS volleyball player

Wow, I thought I was the only human being with that combo as a sports background.

Yeah true anybody who hits in Colorado will have inflated numbers,so Alou is probably the better bet.

Alou is also righthanded.

With the signing of Koskie, the Jays are once again leaning pretty far to the left.

O-Dog (S)
Adams (L)
Hinske (L)
Gross (L)
Cat (L)
Koskie (L)
Johnson (R)
Wells (R)
Rios (R)
Myers (L)
Zaun (R)
McDonald (R)
Menechino (R)

That will cause them huge problems against lefthanded pitching. They will either flail away with their regulars, or field a punchless "memories of berg and gomez" lineup. I would really like to see them ink one more decent righthanded bat. As long as the price isn't too steep, Alou would fit.

Other guys that might work are:

Juan Gonzalez (injuries, baggage, and all)
Ellis Burks (assuming he's healthy)
Magglio Ordonez (might be forced to take 1-year deal with incentives)
Placido Polanco (surprising power, could be supersub against LHP)
Barry Larkin (would be a good, cheap righthanded bat)

yar, italics begone.

Did it work?

hmmmm...

How do I turn off italics?

Shoot, sorry. That was probably me.

I've never liked Ramon Ortiz as a pitcher: for me he's a poor man's Kelvim Escobar. His stuff is above average (though not as good as Super K's), but he loses his focus on the mound at the drop of a hat. I don't know if that's something a guy who's been in the league as long as Ortiz has can ever overcome (i.e. he hasn't already so it might be a permanent feature of his psyche).

That will cause them huge problems against lefthanded pitching.

So its a good thing Ted Lilly is working for them.

There's a real shortage of LH in the AL East these days, although with the return of Boomer Wells and the possible arrival of Eric Milton, that could change. Last year, Lurch was the only lefty in the division other than Lilly to qualify for the ERA title. (He didn't win.)

The portsiders (there's a term we don't hear often enough!) have been concentrated in the Central (Santana, Buehrle, Sabathia, Maroth, Robertson, May, Lee).

And in Oakland...

How do I turn off italics?

What works for me is to turn them on and then turn them off. Just entering the tag that turns them off doesn't seem to work. You seem to need both of them.

Is there an HTML expert (i.e. anyone who knows more than me; i.e. just about anyone) in the house to confirm this?

Close all HTML tags - always. If you're not sure how to do this, you shouldn't be using HTML tags in your comments.

Ryan B posted this lineup

Colon
Washburn
Escobar
Byrd
Lackey/Ortiz/Sele

As far as I know Sele is gone from Anaheim (likely not to be renewed as a FA), and they don't want Ortiz starting as they stated this year. So I guess that just leaves them with Colon, Washburn, Escobat, Lackey and (presumably) now Byrd. I am not sure about that whole Clement thing...I guess they would have to jettison either Washburn or Lackey. Although Washburn has performed well on occasion in the past, I think he might be too wishy-washy a prospect for T.O. to try and land -- what I mean by that is that he strikes me as a streaky-guy.

But, I guess if T.O. cannot land someone of their first choice, they will end up taking what they can get.

On the subject of Alou though...I was quite intrigued by what I have read about that. I was under the impression he was headed to SF, but now I see that SF thinks they are getting too old (which is strange considering they booked Matheny to such a big contract) and will try for a younger outfielder. Alou in T.O. would bring back '94 Expo memories...

TSN or Sportsnet ticker (forgot which one) reported Ortiz got shipped to the Reds or Indians (once again I forgot which team).

I've never liked Ramon Ortiz as a pitcher

I'd be worried about him. He's 31 years old and he seems to be going through the career crisis that often happens around that time. His stuff may be changing on him. He came into the league as a groundball pitcher - now he's giving up more flyballs than grounders. His K/9 rate dropped all the way down to 4.7 two years ago; last year it came back up to 5.8, but that didn't fill me with confience when it was Carl Pavano, let alone Ramon Ortiz.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=1946366
Found the wire story, Ortiz got shipped to the Reds.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/columnist.jsp?content=20041213_152828_4592
TSN or Sportsnet ticker (forgot which one) reported Ortiz got shipped to the Reds or Indians (once again I forgot which team).

I just checked their web-sites, didn't find anything.

I did find Scott Carson's latest (COMN). Scott, you've irritated me!

"I find it incredulous that the Yankees are in the hunt to land Carlos Delgado. After the way he was booed for not standing in sight for 'God Bless America' as a Blue Jay, word that he's willing to honour song will make him the biggest flip-flopper since John Kerry..."

Except a) Delgado said at the time that if his team asked him to stand and honour the song, he would; b) I followed the campaign very, very closely. John Kerry, flip-flopper that he may have been, was still the second-biggest flip-flopper in the race.

But don't get me started on that...

John Kerry, flip-flopper that he may have been, was still the second-biggest flip-flopper in the race.

I am so sick of you taking shots at Michael Badnarik. :)

Just to let you Torontonians know, Manitoba is in Canada...

If the Jays sign Clement, which draft pick do we lose? 1st round? 3rd? I would hate not only to give up $27M over three years (pricey, although I'd still love to see Clement join the Jays, especially if team payroll is on the rise) *and* lose our 1st round pick...on top of our 2nd...

That explains how Winnipeg got a CFL team.

It doesn't explain Baltimore, San Antonio, Las Vegas and the rest though.

The first round pick is too high to be lost as compensation.

I'm not sure, but i don't think they loose a pick. Wouldn't a sandwhich pick be given?

What pick would we get from Zaun if he signed else where? A first rounder/*sandwich*, or a 2nd rounder?

And hey, no mailbag yesterday??

I may have some of this wrong, but there will probably be a few more accurate answers before I finish typing this :)

Toronto can't lose their first round pick since they finished in the bottom half of the standings. If Clement is rated higher than Koskie than Chicago gets our second (plus a sandwich pick) and Minnesota gets our third round pick (plus a sandwich pick). If not, then reverse the teams.

If a team in the bottom half of the standings signs Zaun we could get their second round pick (assuming they don't sign anybody else) and a sandwich pick. For a better team, we would get their first round pick and a sandwich pick.

Clement is taking his sweet time accepting an offer. (And rightly so, as the market just goes up and up, and new suitors seem to keep appearing.) I hope that Halladay, JP, Arnsberg, and assorted other Jays are calling him up, telling him what a great place Toronto is, and how much he would improve the team.

Close, Brian W. As a type B free agent, the Jays would get a first round pick, but no supplemental pick.

Mastny probably won't be anything but a middle reliever, but I was still a fan of his... But as far as the Jays go, it really isn't a huge loss given their tremedous depth.

I am so sick of you taking shots at Michael Badnarik

My bad.

I still want to know... Badnarik had Penn, but who had Teller?

Now, a smooth segue from politics into Politics and Baseball

Isn't New York one of the most liberal cities in MLB? Outside of somewhere like Boston or places on the West Coast, I'd have a hard time thinking of a place that's perceived as being more liberal.

Very true. Kerry got almost 58% of the vote in New York state, and his share of the vote in New York City would have been much higher than that.

On the other hand, baseball people do tend to be politically more conservative than the rest of the population. (Which I attribute to the fact that baseball people tend to have more money than the rest of the population.) They're certainly more conservative than me, but then most human beings are more politically conservative than me. Gosh, I thought Bob Rae was a mushy centrist...

But I think that if Delgado were bound for New York, they'd be working a little harder than they seem to be (as far as we know) to wiggle out from under their obligations to Giambi. And Sexson going to Seattle, the Mets throwing the bank at Pedro Martinez, and Texas dropping out... it looks to me like he'll be in Baltimore next year.

I would hope that Ramon Ortiz is being targetted as a backup, should the Clement deal fall through. IMO, he looks poised to have a big year.

Ramon Ortiz has looked poised to break out for his entire career up to this point, and just never quite seems to make it. I think at this point, his record speaks for itself.

John Kerry, flip-flopper that he may have been, was still the second-biggest flip-flopper in the race.

LOL! True, although looking good in the company he was in is not exactly impressive...

They're certainly more conservative than me, but then most human beings are more politically conservative than me. Gosh, I thought Bob Rae was a mushy centrist...

Good to hear Magpie ;-). I'm not sure if you were joking, but you're right about Rae being a centrist. Miguel Figueroa is more my speed...

I still want to know... Badnarik had Penn, but who had Teller?

Teller was a longtime adviser to Calvin Coolidge.

On the other hand, baseball people do tend to be politically more conservative than the rest of the population.

Do you mean people who work in baseball, or baseball fans? I thought we were a pretty right-wing lot until I started posting here. Instead, I'm the token Conservative BBox staffer.

Do you mean people who work in baseball, or baseball fans? I thought we were a pretty right-wing lot until I started posting here. Instead, I'm the token Conservative BBox staffer.

The people who work in baseball obviously are, considering their recent support of the Bush campaign. I think baseball fans in the US probably tend more towards the right as well. Here in Canada we tend to be more left in general (among innumerable other obvious superiorities to our neighbors :) ), so that probably explains the discrepancy.

Do you mean people who work in baseball, or baseball fans?

I was thinking of the owners and the players. (The really wealthy folks). Maybe the media, to some degree.

Fans, I dunno. Pretty well all of them are more conservative than me, so its hard for me to have a useful perspective. :-)

I don't mean to start with a flame war, or politics...and certainly I don't mean any offense Magpie...but we all know how liberal you, you bring it up all the time. It gets in the way of great baseball talk and turns me and other conservatives right away from a thread (which has been quite entertaining so far) really fast. And Kerry lost. Enough with him.

Again, this is probably really hypocritical coming from me, but we should try to avoid discussing politics on the site. So.. how about those Mets?

And Kerry lost. Enough with him.

Dr. Z, if you don't want to talk about candidate that LOST presidential elections, then I guess W's off limits too... ;-)

It gets in the way of great baseball talk

No offense taken.

See, that was exactly why I tried that Smooth Segue earlier and move on to why I think Delgado will go to Baltimore....

Ramon Ortiz has looked poised to break out for his entire career up to this point, and just never quite seems to make it. I think at this point, his record speaks for itself.

True, but you could have said exactly the same thing about Ted Lilly at this time last year, or Miguel Batista; 2 years ago, you could have said exactly that about Esteban Loaiza. The thing is is that it's a crapshoot, and we'll never really acurately know who is and who isn't going to perform. If a player can be had for the right price who is better than the options available to the team, it's worth taking the chance on, even though it may be a moot point now :)

So.. how about those Mets?

Well, let's see...as of now they are once again blowing ridiculous amounts of money on aging stars who are injury risks and probably past their primes (Pedro, possibility oif trading for Sosa) and overhyped veterans who were never better than mediocre to begin with (Benson). I find that really kind of odd when one considers the good job that Minaya did in Montreal and the fact that he supposedly has full authority with the Mets. Same old Mets though; a big market with lots of money but no clue how to spend it. At least the Yankees usually get value for their money (Brown and Giambi excepted)...

Has this occurred to anyone else?

Omar Minaya = Glen Sather
Montreal = Edmonton

And of course, New York = New York

Not that Omar won much of anything in Montreal. Did he really do a good job there? Any thoughts?

True, but you could have said exactly the same thing about Ted Lilly at this time last year, or Miguel Batista; 2 years ago, you could have said exactly that about Esteban Loaiza.

I see your point, but there are some differences. Ortiz has had 5 ML seasons with 10 or more starts, whereas before last year Lilly had only three, so Ortiz has had considerably greater opportunity to prove what level he's at (decent, mediocre guy). Batista and Loaiza are more comparable, but Batista didn't exactly have a breakout year last season, an although Loaiza did breakout two season ago, he has quickly regressed to his previous level or below.

Anyone know why the Cubs have apparently chosen not to pursue signing Clement? I find it odd that there is absolutely no talk of it. Toward the end of the season all people could talk about around Chicago was that the Cubs should sign him to an extension right at that moment, or at least making him a huge offseason priority. Then, with the whispy rumors that they might try Kerry Wood at closer, who's gonna start?!?

Has this occurred to anyone else?

Omar Minaya = Glen Sather
Montreal = Edmonton

And of course, New York = New York

Not that Omar won much of anything in Montreal. Did he really do a good job there? Any thoughts?

Not sure about the first part because I don't know who Glen Sather is, but as for Omar in Montreal, yes, I think he did do a good job. If you're suggesting that some of the credit he gets for his job there has more do with how he dealt with the limited budget and difficult situation, then you're right, but I think that's valid. However, there is certainly a difference between doing the best you possibly can with what you have (which is what Minaya did in Montreal) and producing a great team when you're given much greater resources (which is what he's being asked to do now), so maybe he hasn't made that adjustment yet.

"Anyone know why the Cubs have apparently chosen not to pursue signing Clement? I find it odd that there is absolutely no talk of it. Toward the end of the season all people could talk about around Chicago was that the Cubs should sign him to an extension right at that moment, or at least making him a huge offseason priority. Then, with the whispy rumors that they might try Kerry Wood at closer, who's gonna start?!?"

Their GM already shot down the rumour of Wood being the closer. They already have Maddux, Wood, Zambrano, and Prior. Even though their payroll is huge they're not going to spend 7-9 mil for a 5th starter
especially when they want to take a run at other FA's.

Then, with the whispy rumors that they might try Kerry Wood at closer

I really doubt that it'll happen; it would really seem like quite a waste of a guy who's been a very effective starter and a workhorse in terms of IP his whole career. Then again, I said the same thing about Smoltz, who was an even better starter than Wood, although coming off injury at the time.

When the Glen Sather analogies come out, it becomes clear what makes Da Box unique. I suspect that this doesn't happen on any other baseball blogs.

FWIW, I don't think Omar did a particularly good job in MTL. Gutting the farm his first year was understandable-he wanted to try and win before they got contracted. The moves after that got less defensible, particularly the Colon trade, where my memory seems to suggest that he futzed several potentially better deals by not being prepared at the winter meetings.

Oddly enough, I've had a job interview with him, and he seems like a hell of a guy. I just don't think he's great at his job, and the Pedro signing seems to be evidence in that direction as well. The phoning the Yankees thing-if true-is hilarious.

Anyone know why the Cubs have apparently chosen not to pursue signing Clement?

They signed Glendon Rusch to a two-year deal last month. So I assume they figure their rotation will be Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Maddux, and Rusch. And no, they don't appear to have any interest whatsoever in bringing Clement back.

Hmmm, I thought they still wanted Rusch in the versatile swing-man role he was so good in last year. Anyway, I guess all that "extension/resign" stuff came from the media. If all healthy, that's still a pretty good staff without Clement.

I don't know who Glen Sather is

He ran the Edmonton Oilers NHL team for some 15 years, and won 5 Stanley Cups, one of them after trading Wayne Gretzky.

Then he moved to New York to run the New York Rangers. That hasn't gone quite so well.

Minaya gets a fair amount of credit from people for making winners out of the 2002 and 2003 Expos.

I don't think it's all that deserved. I think most of the credit has to go to Frank Robinson. Robby has a history of taking teams with little talent and turning them into above .500 teams: The '76 Indians, the '82 Giants, and the '89 Orioles. I think a lot of the credit has to go to Frank. It's a shame he's never gotten a decent crew of players to work with.

Apparently he's considered a lunatic within the Expos organization though, or at least he was in 2002.

Apparently he's considered a lunatic within the Expos organization though, or at least he was in 2002.

Minaya or Robinson?

If all healthy, that's still a pretty good staff without Clement.

Yes indeed. But there are certainly concerns - Maddux will be 39 in April, Wood and Prior both missed big chunks of last season (and Wood in particular has a history of arm troubles), and Rusch is one year removed from 1-12 and 6.42.

I think it possible that a lot of big decisions are on hold until they figure out what they're doing with Sosa.

He ran the Edmonton Oilers NHL team for some 15 years, and won 5 Stanley Cups, one of them after trading Wayne Gretzky.

Then he moved to New York to run the New York Rangers. That hasn't gone quite so well.

OK, then that makes sense. That's basically the sort of thing I was getting at with Minaya.

I was listening to the Dan Patrick show this morning at 1am and Peter Gammons came on said the Blue Jays shot down a 3 team trade with the

Blue Jays getting: Edwin Jackson, Choi
Dodgers getting: Tim Hudson
A's getting: Lilly and Rios.

Mr.Red Sox said the A's would recieve "Armando Rios".

Minaya or Robinson?

Robinson-good manager, but nuts, or so the stories go. I agree with you that he deserves the credit for MTL's results, but I don't know that you can build a team with him as the manager and count on having the same players be part of your core for 4-5 years.

I've heard Robinson is pretty intense. Don't know if he's nuts (don't know if he isn't either), but Billy Martin and Casey Stengel didn't always seem like they had it altogether. So it may not be a bad quality. :)

Perhaps I missed the post but Anaheim traded Ramon Ortiz to the Reds today. Reds gave up one of their top pitching prospects (Dustin Moseley). I was thinking he would have been a nice backup plan if Clement signs somewhere else (assuming Ortiz was released).

C.

I live in Montreal and followed the Expos pretty closely. Frank should have retired a few years ago. He mangled the team here last year. Just look at the Rocky Biddle situation. The media here never cared enough to criticize him though. That will change in Washington.
The Expos were a decent team the past few years but were ultimately undone by their horrible schedule. Puerto Rico is 1000 km southeast of Miami, so you can imagine the miles they piled up. Omar did a very good job at assembling them, although the minor league cupboard is about as bare as it can be.

Two new names that might make sense for the Jays:

Alfredo Amezaga was pulled off the 40 by Anaheim after the Ortiz deal. He's no great shakes, but as a utility infielder is just fine.

A.J. the Blue Jay?> Of course, if they sign both Amezega AND Pierzynski, they may run over the alphabet cap in "Z"s.

Is there any point to signing all these old guys?

I'd rather the Jays play the "kids" and lose 90 games while giving all their prospects big-league exposure than have the Jays sign a whack of 35+ year olds and play .500 while the young guys get stuck in AAA.

Just my opinion. I would be satisfied if Koskie was JP's only acquisition. Let Chacin show us what he's got as the fifth starter, let League and Gaudin work in the bullpen. Give 300 AB's to Guillermo Quiroz to let him get accustomed to the bigs. Why not? I'd rather watch Gabe Gross develop than watch Moises Alou. Meh.

What if Gross bombs and Quiroz struggles to hit .230. From the way Qurioz hit in Syracuse and the Majors, it looks like he could use more time to develop.

Smirnoff, my friend, I can pretty much guarantee that any major-league hand you've ever shaken has been somewhere you'd rather not know about.

hehehe

I'm not shaking your hand either if you can pretty much guarantee that. :)

Is there any point to signing all these old guys?

Gosh, I hope that's not in reference to the two I just brought up prior to your post. Almazaga is 26 and Pierzynski turns 28 at the end of the month. Now that I look at Almazaga's numbers more closely, his career OPS+ of (ugh) 55 suggests I may have overstated his worth.

Pierzynski, on the other hand, with his OPS_ of exactly 100, is a former All-Star with similarity scores to HOFers Ernie Lombardi and Rick Ferrell and All-Stars Terry Kennedy and Tony Pena. He's not exactly headed for Cooperstown, of course, but hey -- he has his own fanboy Web site at www.aj-pierzynski.com/.

Actually, I think A.J. is going to cause a stupid bidding war and the Blue Jays probably can't afford what it will cost to sign a guy released by the Giants.

Are any new updates or rumblings on the Clement signing?

http://www.aj-pierzynski.com
Sorry, I miscoded the link above. COMN for All About AJ!

The Blue Jays should claim Pierzynski off waivers if they really want him.. I personally wouldn't mind seeing AJ holding down the fort with Quiroz for a couple years.

If Hinske plays first base I will have lost all faith in J.P.

Last season our corner OF, 3b and DH production was abysmal.

The only sequence of JP trades that has truly impressed me was parlaying Shannon Stewart into Ted Lilly.

You have 3 months to impress me J.P. Not being able to find a respectable 1b/DH combo is unacceptable.

Having a knack for acquiring solid backup middle infielders and fringe relievers isn't pulling the wool over anybody's eyes anymore.

W

If you're the Wes whom I think you are, you should have more faith in JP; and Hinske, for that matter.

I'd say parlaying Koch into the ROY was also a pretty good trade. Hinske had a great 2002. Not JP's fault that he's struggled since then.

The name of the game for the Jays is to build a team that will be competitive in 2006 and beyond. There isn't any point in acquiring a respectable 1B/DH combo that is overpriced, over the hill, or that comes at the expense of the team's future. That's why, for example, trading Lilly and Rios for Choi and Jackson, or Wells for Tim Hudson, just isn't that bright.

I'd wait until mid-season and see if we're still in the playoff hunt.. If we aren't then i'd see about a possible Edwin Jackson for Ted Lilly deal.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1946536
Well, it looks like the Washington Nationals might not last very long. COMN for details.

I know a flamboyant mayor that would love a baseball team.

The Blue Jays should claim Pierzynski off waivers if they really want him.. I personally wouldn't mind seeing AJ holding down the fort with Quiroz for a couple years.

Are the Jays willing to pay the possible 5MM arbitration award he might be given? That's why the Giants non-tendered him.

I'd say parlaying Koch into the ROY was also a pretty good trade. Hinske had a great 2002. Not JP's fault that he's struggled since then.

Well, JP signed him to a big contract as a result. And that contract is now restricting the Jays' ability to make other moves. So you could pretty easily argue that the Koch deal didn't turn out well for them. Not assigning blame, but the Hinske deal did seem risky at the time, moreso than the Wells deal because there were so many doubts about Hinske's ability coming into that year.

The reason Pierzynski will be playing for his third team in three years is that A) there are real questions about his attitude and makeup... there was a whole huge blow up with the Pierzynski and the entire Giants' pitching staff early on last season and B) his agent has been floating astronomical contract suggestions for his client.

The Jays should stay far, far away from AJ.

As for Amezaga, why would the Jays want him? They just traded for McDonald who is better with the glove, they have Menechino and Alfaro is triple-A along with Julius Matos as emergency reserves.

Anyone know what Zaun is looking for money wise? I hear he wants a two-year deal, but what kind of cash is he looking for? I could see a 2 year deal for $750,000 and $900,000 being reasonable. Going much high than that would be silly due to the fact he has never had a year as good as this past one and Quiroz should be ready for 2006, so Zaun would be relegated to backup and the Jays can't afford their backup to be making more than a million.

http://me.woot.net
the Hinske deal did seem risky at the time, moreso than the Wells deal because there were so many doubts about Hinske's ability coming into that year.

What Hinske are YOU talking about? It isn't the one who was being suggested for ROY pre-season, that's for sure.

What was Cesar Izturis parlayed into?

What was Cesar Izturis parlayed into?

December 13, 2001: Traded by the Toronto Blue Jays with Paul Quantrill to the Los Angeles Dodgers for Luke Prokopec and Chad Ricketts (minors)

This is definitely a deal we lost. At the time, I was stoked, as Prokopec looked like a promising power pitcher, and Izturis was stuck behind Felipe Lopez.

What was Cesar Izturis parlayed into?

Snore.

What Hinske are YOU talking about? It isn't the one who was being suggested for ROY pre-season, that's for sure.

There were doubts about his ability to handle 3rd, doubts about his ability to hit enough to play 1B. The biggest thing Hinske had going for him coming into that year was a job and the confidence of the GM. There were definitely doubters out there. I wasn't one of them, but I also didn't think the contract was a great idea.

At the time, though, the Wells contract looked a lot riskier. He was still a pretty rough, albeit talented, player. He had a .305 OBP, which is pretty dreadful even if you are an awesome centre fielder.

Hinske was a far superior hitter, even if he was a bit rough in the field; remember, though, that he'd shown improvement over the second half.

Hinske was a year older. For all of his walks, he also struck out much more than Vern. Not that this means much very often, but Wells was much more highly touted coming up through the minors, whereas Hinske was a kind of dark horse. Being picked in the 1st round vs the 17th round I'm sure had something to do with that, but it also might have been a good job of evaluation by the scouts.

Anyway, I didn't see Hinske "progressing" from a good hit/no glove 3B into a no hit/good glove 1B. Coach's description of his defensive potential at 1B is interesting. If he wound up being great over there, it'd be worth a shot seeing if he can recover some of his hitting ability. Unless of course he can be dumped without the Jays taking significant salary on in return.

Joe Crede is Hinkse's #1 comp at BR, in both categories. Would've been funny if they wound up traded for each other.

You know what I find funny about the Izturis deal?

OPS by year....

2002
Woodward: .798
Izturis: .556

2003
Woodward: .711
Izturis: .597

2004
Woodward: .630 (injured)
Izturis: .711

We gave up the next Christian Guzman, and a 3 million dollar reliever who was about to be a 10/5 player for a promising young pitcher and a hard throwing reliever. The pitchers the Jays recevied both got hurt, but even the savings of having a $3M reliever with a no trade clause was enough to justify this deal in my book. I don't know why this move is looked at as a bad one. It boggles my mind, actually.

Sorry, I saw the horse's toe moving, so I had to beat it a little more.

As for Hinske...

(Lavg3B = league average 3B)

2002
Hinske: .279-.365-.481
Lavg3B: .257-.324-.427

2003
Hinske: .243-.329-.437
Lavg3B: .260-.323-.424

2004
Hinske: .246-.312-.375
Lavg3B: .270-.343-.451

So he had one very good year, one slightly above average year, and one terrible year. He had a broken wrist in 2003, so whether you want to use it as an excuse or not, that had to of effected his numbers.

Hinske has been underrated by Jays fans, just because he had a really good rookie year that set expectations too high, and a outlier 2004 season that isn't consistent with anything he's done for 3 levels (AA, AAA, MLB). A move to 1B will hurt his value, but I think people have been too hard on him.

Here's a wild idea. Consider this from Gammons' whiny screed about Pedro signing with the Mets:

Remember, in 17 starts on normal (4 days') rest, his 2004 earned run average was 4.995, or 5.00; his three outstanding postseason starts were on seven, eight and seven days' rest, while his weaker start was on a fifth day of rest.

What if the Mets just decided to literally skip every other start on Pedro's turn in the rotation? Give those starts to, say, Aaron Heilman. Throw Pedro 20 times on eight days rest and Heilman 20 times on eight days rest; use Heilman (but not Pedro) out of the bullpen during the downtimes.

Would you rather have Pedro at 14-2, 2.17 for 20 starts or at 16-12, 3.88 for 34 or 35 starts?

I'd rather the Jays play the "kids" and lose 90 games while giving all their prospects big-league exposure than have the Jays sign a whack of 35+ year olds and play .500 while the young guys get stuck in AAA.

Contrary to popular belief, "playing the kids" is not a cure-all for a baseball team that is out of contention...

Don't be dumb, Lee. No one is suggesting that if the Jays field an all-rookie team they'll win the world series. However, it certainly is useful to give the kids some major league experience and allow them to make mistakes in a season where expectations are low, rather than in a season when the team is on the cusp of greatness.

No Jays round up for today? No news, rumours, rumblings, grumblings, bumblings...... about any singings or trades?

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2004/12/15/783228-sun.html
No news, rumours, rumblings, grumblings, bumblings

I dont see it mentioned above (but I just skimmed), but the Sun is reporting that the Jays are interested in Moises Alou.

And Shawn F. Estes fer crying out loud. Take with a massive grain of salt, as always.

Where's the love of Odalis Perez tho? You barely hear anything about him.

Jim, find me four worthy articles and I'll post a roundup for ya. ;)

According to Rotoworld the Mariners are talking to Perez.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1103065819572&call_pageid=969907739730&col=970081600908
here's one...

No one is suggesting that if the Jays field an all-rookie team they'll win the world series. However, it certainly is useful to give the kids some major league experience and allow them to make mistakes in a season where expectations are low, rather than in a season when the team is on the cusp of greatness.

Well, that's true to extent, but I think a lot of clubs go to far with that philosophy. I would also like to point out that holding that belief most certainly does not make me "dumb", as I could prove if need be...

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2004/12/15/783228-sun.html
COMN for the Alou story

Lee, I'm not calling you dumb, I'm saying you were being dumb, perhaps deliberately -- I'm not trying to be insulting.

Here's what you were responding to:

I'd rather the Jays play the "kids" and lose 90 games ...

To which you responded:

Contrary to popular belief, "playing the kids" is not a cure-all for a baseball team that is out of contention...

I wouldn't call losing 90 games being in contention. I don't think you would, either. That's what I'm talking about.

Do you guys want a Make Your Own Roundup thread?

Do you guys want a Make Your Own Roundup thread?

Boo-yeah!

It'll be like Choose Your Own Adventure. But geekier.

No clue how, there's really no stories out there, but it may be a good idea to make a new thread b/c we're past 250 on this one.

Wells was much more highly touted coming up through the minors, whereas Hinske was a kind of dark horse.

I'm willing to place creedence in the "highly touted" angle, but when a dark horse wins a race he's not a dark horse any more. After Hinske's 2002, it didn't matter what scouts thought of him in the minors.

Anyway, I didn't see Hinske "progressing" from a good hit/no glove 3B into a no hit/good glove 1B.

Irrelevant. He didn't need to progress to earn his contract, he just needed to maintain his 2002 level. The contract may have been premature, but that expectation (maintain but not improve) was not unreasonable.

A move to 1B will hurt his value

In the abstract,yes, but in context I disagree. What free agent first baseman could the Jays have signed for 3 years 17 that would provide the same offensive and defensive value to the team as Koskie? When we look back on the 2005 numbers there probably will be at least one, but I don't think there's one you can point to right now. For the money, Koskie was the best available guy for this team. Meanwhile, Hinske figures to provide the same level of offence as he would have as a 3B, but better defence.

Would you rather have Pedro at 14-2, 2.17 for 20 starts or at 16-12, 3.88 for 34 or 35 starts?

It is an interesting idea. I'd be more inclined to try it as a tandem-starter setup, where Martinez is limited to 70 pitches every other start.

NFH, sorry for taking it the wrong way, but I'm really kinda confused here...

I said:

Contrary to popular belief, "playing the kids" is not a cure-all for a baseball team that is out of contention...

To which you reply:

I wouldn't call losing 90 games being in contention. I don't think you would, either. That's what I'm talking about.

Huh? Of course I know the Jays aren't in contention. I said clearly that I don't believe that philosophy should be blindly applied even to a team that is out of contention. Look, of course when you're still in a rebuiliding phase you have to give your prospects a shot, I just think that you can't get too carried away with that philosophy and not bring in some solid veterans as well, or else you will tend to find yourself rebuilding continuously. The good small market teams rely on their systems, but they also bring in solid veteran players to fill needs even if they don't necessarily expect to win it all.

"Jim, find me four worthy articles and I'll post a roundup for ya. ;)

That's what we pay you the big bucks for!!

Would you rather have Pedro at 14-2, 2.17 for 20 starts or at 16-12, 3.88 for 34 or 35 starts?

It is an interesting idea. I'd be more inclined to try it as a tandem-starter setup, where Martinez is limited to 70 pitches every other start.

Interesting dilemma here. This may well be the best way to maximize the value of whatever Pedro has left. However, do you think the Wilpons would be content to pay $13M a season for four seasons of 150 IP or less (a reasonable estimate considering 20 starts)? To me, that's really the thing I don't get about the Pedro signing. IMO Pedro on his best day is still the greatest pitcher in the game today, but that contract really is quite excessive when you consider the declining frequency with which one can expect those "best days".

Huh? Of course I know the Jays aren't in contention. I said clearly that I don't believe that philosophy should be blindly applied even to a team that is out of contention.

OK, yes, but you're replying to someone who said 'I'd rather the Jays play the "kids" and lose 90 games'. They are not saying that playing the kids is a key to contending this year, they are saying exactly the opposite, that playing the kids will likely lead to losing 90 games but hopefully pay off in the future.

I just think that you can't get too carried away with that philosophy and not bring in some solid veterans as well, or else you will tend to find yourself rebuilding continuously.

Of course, and no one is saying "NEVER bring in veterans". The idea is a two step process:
1) develop the kids
2) add the final key elements

If part 1 isn't done, spending money on veterans is like throwing money away. So in the specific case of the Blue Jays and next year, bringing in veteran players other than for leadership or to fill in where we have a hole in the lineup is somewhat counter-productive. Sure, it could lead to more wins next year. But if "more" wins aren't enough to contend, why do it?

And Jim, as soon as you send me some of those big bucks I'll scour up a roundup for you. ;)

I'm willing to place creedence in the "highly touted" angle, but when a dark horse wins a race he's not a dark horse any more. After Hinske's 2002, it didn't matter what scouts thought of him in the minors.

Rookies have fluke years all the time- remember Kevin Maas? Hinske wasn't the first guy to win a ROY and then tank after, he won't be the last...

It did matter- was 2002 his "true" level of ability? Was he playing over his head, or was he not yet fully developed, in other words, could you expect more from him?

DP: Anyway, I didn't see Hinske "progressing" from a good hit/no glove 3B into a no hit/good glove 1B.

Irrelevant. He didn't need to progress to earn his contract, he just needed to maintain his 2002 level. The contract may have been premature, but that expectation (maintain but not improve) was not unreasonable.

I don't know about that. But my point was that's it's a weird career path for him, espceially after how excited we all were about his '02. It was like- "we could live with the defense if he keeps hitting like that" and now "we maybe can live with the offense if he fields great." I don't think anyone here saw that coming, that's all...

Look, it isn't like I hate the guy. I hope he pulls it together. I'd love for him to be valuable enough to justify that contract in '05. I just don't see it happening.

This may well be the best way to maximize the value of whatever Pedro has left. However, do you think the Wilpons would be content to pay $13M a season for four seasons of 150 IP or less (a reasonable estimate considering 20 starts)

Well, if teams pay $10 M for a closer to pitch 90 innings, $13 M isn't bad for 150. I don't like the deal- I'd rather see Delgado on the Mets over Pedro.

They are not saying that playing the kids is a key to contending this year, they are saying exactly the opposite, that playing the kids will likely lead to losing 90 games but hopefully pay off in the future.

I am fully aware of that. I never meant to suggest that I thought they were touting playing the kids as a way to win next year. It's just the whole "pay off in the future" part that I'm not totally sold on.

If part 1 isn't done, spending money on veterans is like throwing money away. So in the specific case of the Blue Jays and next year, bringing in veteran players other than for leadership or to fill in where we have a hole in the lineup is somewhat counter-productive. Sure, it could lead to more wins next year. But if "more" wins aren't enough to contend, why do it?

This is what I don't totally agree with. Of course, if you don't think you're going to contend, you're not going to go and break the bank. But the problem with the sequential strategy of "develop the kids", then "fill the holes" has a historical tendancy to seem to get stuck somewhere between the two steps. I think that you need to bring in quality veteran guys as you develop, and see what you have. Besides, even if you're not ready to go all the way yet, I certainly don't agree that there's nothing to be said for improving the win total a little and climbing back to respectability.

Well, if teams pay $10 M for a closer to pitch 90 innings

Well, unless you're the Yankees, that's not a very good idea either :).

Besides, even if you're not ready to go all the way yet, I certainly don't agree that there's nothing to be said for improving the win total a little and climbing back to respectability.

True. But if there's another way to spend the money that'll help more in the future, I'd rather see it spent that way than on today.

All that said, I'm fine with Koskie in Toronto. But if they raised the budget to $70 million this year and signed a bunch of veterans and had a mediocre finish, I'd scream and cry.

Yeah, I agree. But this is the Mets we're talking about, so "good idea" has a different standard. As long as they're not trading a future Cy Young for a pitcher with no control and a damaged elbow, they're doing something "right"...

But if there's another way to spend the money that'll help more in the future, I'd rather see it spent that way than on today.

Well, that's reasonable, but in many ways, making these sort of improvements today, if done in a reasonable fashion, does help out in the long run.

But if they raised the budget to $70 million this year and signed a bunch of veterans and had a mediocre finish, I'd scream and cry.

Don't worry. As you'll recall, they already tried that and it didn't work out so great, which is why Gord Ash is no longer with us ;-).

But this is the Mets we're talking about, so "good idea" has a different standard.

Very true. Hell, the Mets' GM seems to think asking the Yankees for advice is a "good idea"...

As long as they're not trading a future Cy Young for a pitcher with no control and a damaged elbow, they're doing something "right"...

LOL, and that probably isn't even the most boneheaded thing they've done in the last three or four years...

Mo Vaughn, Tom Glavine, Kevin Appier, Roberto Alomar. Trading Benitez. Moving Reyes off short. Being a Mets fan is hard because they turn their biggest asset- a huge revenue stream- into a liability by using it to bring in horrible players. They haven't paid for a future performance since they signed Piazza. Everyone else, it's been a reward for what they did for another team. Sucks.

Last night, SportsCenter did a Top 10 Countdown of "Worst Mets Transactions" (#1 the Nolan Ryan trade, of course) and there wasn't even a mention of Darryl Strawberry, Doc Gooden; Tom Seaver for Doug Flynn and spare parts barely made the top 5; and Jason Isringhausen and Terrence Long for Billy Taylor wasn't even mentioned.

It's a long and storied history in the aptly-named Flushing.

Last night, SportsCenter did a Top 10 Countdown of "Worst Mets Transactions" (#1 the Nolan Ryan trade, of course) and there wasn't even a mention of Darryl Strawberry, Doc Gooden; Tom Seaver for Doug Flynn and spare parts barely made the top 5; and Jason Isringhausen and Terrence Long for Billy Taylor wasn't even mentioned.

It defies all logic that a team with such resources can so consistently get absolutely nothing in return for their investments...

Rookies have fluke years all the time- remember Kevin Maas? Hinske wasn't the first guy to win a ROY and then tank after, he won't be the last...

What I dispute is the notion that Hinske 2002 was a fluke. Here are Hinske's minor league numbers. If you can show me how 2002 was completely out of line with his development curve, I shall consider myself muchly educated.

Unfortunately the Baseball Cube doesn't have the minor league numbers on Kevin Maas, so you'll need to come up with a different example to convince that it's normal for players with excellent minor league numbers to have a solid rookie campaign and then stink. I will point out that Maas was only good for 1/2 a season.