Looks like 116 comments is the de facto expiry point for Hijack Central threads, so here's another one. The Eric Milton deal has its own thread, but feel free to discuss any other late-breaking news here, such as the Yankees' signing of Craig Lefferts to a two-year, $6.8M contract.
Boston has reportedly hired Terry Francona as manager. Since he was with the A's last year and has now been hired by the sabermetrically-friendly Red Sox, I assume he's changed since his days with the Phillies. The Jays are in Boston for the first weekend of the season, so we'll find out soon enough.
That said, this old Baseball Prospectus article from July of 2000 makes him sound like Grady Little Supreme.
That said, this old Baseball Prospectus article from July of 2000 makes him sound like Grady Little Supreme.
Bye Bye Bill Livesey. Ricciardi's special assistant has taken a similiar post with the Mets. This had been the second in the last year he was rumored to be moving onto other opportunities.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1677477
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1677477
Best of luck to Livesey, hopefully he handles the job better than his predecessor.
Bye Bye Bill Livesey. Ricciardi's special assistant has taken a similiar post with the Mets. This had been the second in the last year he was rumored to be moving onto other opportunities
If JP is reading, I am available. I am excellent at special projects.
If JP is reading, I am available. I am excellent at special projects.
Who is Bill Livesey? I imagine he's pretty good at what he does, if Ricciardi hired him as a special asst.
Who would want to leave tidy Toronto for the Big Apple?
Who would want to leave tidy Toronto for the Big Apple?
http://economics.about.com
Whenever I hear the title "Special Assistant" all I can think about is this.
Whenever I hear the title "Special Assistant" all I can think about is this.
For the same reason, I always thought it was funny how Buck Martinez would often refer to Alex Gonzalez as "special."
Don't the Yanks now have like 27 relievers? Maybe we're about to see the return of the A's 9-pitcher 'flotation rotation' from 1993....
On a more relavent note, the Cubs have signed LaTroy Hawkins to a 3 year deal at, I believe, 11 million. Oh well, LaTroy would've been nice in a Fighting Jays uni...
There are plenty of reports in the NY papers that the Yankees will complete the Johnson/Rivera for Vasquez trade today.
Also there is a good article in the Globe and Mail today about Sequea, quoting Dick Scott--basically said his best position is second base, good eye at the plate, with gap power, athletic.
The Globe and Mail has done a good job with the baseball coverage recently. Breaking the story on the Taiwan pitcher, a good article recently on Vlad by Jeff Blair, and now a prospect report on a Rule 5 player--Kudos to Millson/Blair for easily the best baseball coverage in the city.
Also there is a good article in the Globe and Mail today about Sequea, quoting Dick Scott--basically said his best position is second base, good eye at the plate, with gap power, athletic.
The Globe and Mail has done a good job with the baseball coverage recently. Breaking the story on the Taiwan pitcher, a good article recently on Vlad by Jeff Blair, and now a prospect report on a Rule 5 player--Kudos to Millson/Blair for easily the best baseball coverage in the city.
The Team 990 in Montreal is saying that it's a straight Vasquez for Johnson deal and that it could be done soon - before Winter Meetings.
And so, life imitates art, or so it appears. To quote:
"As they say, you can never have enough pitching in this league," Torre said. "Especially come playoff time. Now, if we make it to the World Series, we'll be able to start Pedro Martinez in Game 1 and still have him fresh and ready to go for a Game 287, should it be necessary."
:-)
"As they say, you can never have enough pitching in this league," Torre said. "Especially come playoff time. Now, if we make it to the World Series, we'll be able to start Pedro Martinez in Game 1 and still have him fresh and ready to go for a Game 287, should it be necessary."
:-)
Barry Bonds testifies before the Grand Jury in the Balco/Victor Conte trial today. His testimony is confidential and he is just there to supply information. I'm sure he'll be splashed all over Sportscentre anyway though.
That Craig Lefferts thing is a joke, right?
Yup.
The Team 990 in Montreal is saying that it's a straight Vasquez for Johnson deal and that it could be done soon - before Winter Meetings.
Y'know, distressing as this is from a Jays standpoint -- Vazquez is a guy I don't want to see pitching for a division rival -- it's really not a bad trade for Montreal. They're dealing a very good but expensive pitcher for a very good cheap-as-dirt hitter. I know it'll be framed as the rich Yankees hosing the poor MLB-controlled Expos, but this would be a reasonable trade between pretty much any two teams. I don't know why the Yanks would hold on to Rivera, though -- he's about 17th on the outfield depth chart right now.
300,000+ hits and counting....
And a very sincere thank you! to all our visitors and contributors! Batter's Box thrives because of your interest and passion for the game and the local nine.
Yup.
The Team 990 in Montreal is saying that it's a straight Vasquez for Johnson deal and that it could be done soon - before Winter Meetings.
Y'know, distressing as this is from a Jays standpoint -- Vazquez is a guy I don't want to see pitching for a division rival -- it's really not a bad trade for Montreal. They're dealing a very good but expensive pitcher for a very good cheap-as-dirt hitter. I know it'll be framed as the rich Yankees hosing the poor MLB-controlled Expos, but this would be a reasonable trade between pretty much any two teams. I don't know why the Yanks would hold on to Rivera, though -- he's about 17th on the outfield depth chart right now.
300,000+ hits and counting....
And a very sincere thank you! to all our visitors and contributors! Batter's Box thrives because of your interest and passion for the game and the local nine.
I know it'll be framed as the rich Yankees hosing the poor MLB-controlled Expos
From an economic point of view it's a reasonably fair trade.
From a talent standpoint the Yankees are making out. And since money isn't an issue for the Yankees it's frustrating to watch them get better by just throwing money at the problem.
How many players that have appeared in All Star games will be on the Yank's 25 man roster next year? I suspect it's at least 15, and maybe more.
From an economic point of view it's a reasonably fair trade.
From a talent standpoint the Yankees are making out. And since money isn't an issue for the Yankees it's frustrating to watch them get better by just throwing money at the problem.
How many players that have appeared in All Star games will be on the Yank's 25 man roster next year? I suspect it's at least 15, and maybe more.
http://economics.about.com
I suspect it's at least 15, and maybe more.
That wouldn't be an exceptional number, particularly if you're allowed to count players who will be first-time All-Stars in 1993.
Players on the 1993 Blue Jays who appeared in an All-Star game in 1993 or prior:
Roberto Alomar
Joe Carter
Tony Fernandez
Juan Guzman
Pat Hentgen
Rickey Henderson
Jack Morris
Paul Molitor
John Olerud
Dave Stewart
Duane Ward
Devon White
Post-1993 All-Stars on the 1993 Jays:
Carlos Delgado
Shawn Green
Al Leiter
Woody Williams
Ed Sprague
I suspect it's at least 15, and maybe more.
That wouldn't be an exceptional number, particularly if you're allowed to count players who will be first-time All-Stars in 1993.
Players on the 1993 Blue Jays who appeared in an All-Star game in 1993 or prior:
Roberto Alomar
Joe Carter
Tony Fernandez
Juan Guzman
Pat Hentgen
Rickey Henderson
Jack Morris
Paul Molitor
John Olerud
Dave Stewart
Duane Ward
Devon White
Post-1993 All-Stars on the 1993 Jays:
Carlos Delgado
Shawn Green
Al Leiter
Woody Williams
Ed Sprague
http://economics.about.com
who will be first-time All-Stars in 1993.
Err.. that should be "who will be first-time All-Stars in 2004.
Mike
who will be first-time All-Stars in 1993.
Err.. that should be "who will be first-time All-Stars in 2004.
Mike
http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031204/JAYS04//?query=Sequea
Here is that article by Larry Millson at the Globe and Mail that Scott mentioned.
Click my name for the link to the great story about infielder Jorge Sequea who was chosen in the Triple A portion of the Rule 5 Draft last year.
Here is that article by Larry Millson at the Globe and Mail that Scott mentioned.
Click my name for the link to the great story about infielder Jorge Sequea who was chosen in the Triple A portion of the Rule 5 Draft last year.
Nick Johnson and Brad Wilkerson would be quite a duo.
As impressive as the Schilling deal is for the Bosox, Vazquez is a better acquisition.
Hawkins is a great signing for the Cubs, who are clearly going for it all in 2004. (Nice to see Tribune Corp. spend some money.)
I just can't imagine any NL team not be quashed by either of the AL East superclubs.
As impressive as the Schilling deal is for the Bosox, Vazquez is a better acquisition.
Hawkins is a great signing for the Cubs, who are clearly going for it all in 2004. (Nice to see Tribune Corp. spend some money.)
I just can't imagine any NL team not be quashed by either of the AL East superclubs.
How many players that have appeared in All Star games will be on the Yank's 25 man roster next year?
Posada, Giambi, Soriano, Jeter, Matsui, Bernie, Boone, Mussina, Rivera, Quantrill, Gordon.
Maybe Sheff, maybe Kevin Brown, maybe Petitte, maybe Boomer.
Posada, Giambi, Soriano, Jeter, Matsui, Bernie, Boone, Mussina, Rivera, Quantrill, Gordon.
Maybe Sheff, maybe Kevin Brown, maybe Petitte, maybe Boomer.
Call me crazy, but why don't the Jays send a couple of young players to Montreal for Vasquez? Say one or more of Werth, Hudson, Cash, Phelps, and/or a prospect or two. (Perhaps Simon Pond as a poor man's Nick Johnson, ha ha ahem.)
I think Minaya could get better talent from Toronto than New York, and that Vasquez would be a wise acquisition for JP, even if he doesn't come cheap. He certainly wouldn't be overpriced.
Imagine a starting four of:
Halladay
Vasquez
Lilly
Hentgen
I think Minaya could get better talent from Toronto than New York, and that Vasquez would be a wise acquisition for JP, even if he doesn't come cheap. He certainly wouldn't be overpriced.
Imagine a starting four of:
Halladay
Vasquez
Lilly
Hentgen
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1678044
Stark says the Vazquez deal is official. COMN
Stark says the Vazquez deal is official. COMN
Too late. Stark's reporting the Yanks just got Vazquez.
http://economics.about.com
Call me crazy, but why don't the Jays send a couple of young players to Montreal for Vasquez? Say one or more of Werth, Hudson, Cash, Phelps, and/or a prospect or two.
You're crazy.
You're going to give up Hudson and Phelps for *one* year of Vazquez, particularly when that year is 2004 and the Red Sox and Yankees are playing Clash of the Titans?
Mike
Call me crazy, but why don't the Jays send a couple of young players to Montreal for Vasquez? Say one or more of Werth, Hudson, Cash, Phelps, and/or a prospect or two.
You're crazy.
You're going to give up Hudson and Phelps for *one* year of Vazquez, particularly when that year is 2004 and the Red Sox and Yankees are playing Clash of the Titans?
Mike
For those John Thomson fans out there, he won't cost a draft pick, and he won't be back with Texas.
This one smarts. Its one thing for the Yankees and Boston to be giving up young talent for late thirtees pitchers with huge salaries (eg. Schilling and Brown) it quite another for them to go after 27 year olds like Vasquez. Whereas a lot of the discussion yesterday was on how this war between Boston and NY was leading them down a road to disaster a year or two from now, I really am having a hard time seeing that today. If you can spend $200 million plus a year, how hard is it to stay on top?
The Yankees will likely have a payroll between 140 and 150 million for 2004. If you gave me a 140 million dollars, I would be able to provide you with a 100-win team. Since I don't see the Yankees reducing payroll in comparison to the average team drastically over the next millenium, I think their dominance will continue.
Stark is reporting that the deal is Vasquez for Johnson, Rivera and a 3rd player, probably Choate. If this is the case, I am beginning to like the deal from a Montreal side and I don't think they got hosed at all
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1678044
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1678044
Thanks, guys -- I've set up this trade in its own thread.
I don't think they got hosed because they do have money trouble and Johnson is a great return but the rest of the trade is filler. Rivera is the latest Ricky Ledee. Choate is a 28 year old, non-Canadian version of Steve Sinclair.
The Yanks would have gotten Vazquez as a free agent next year anyway. I don't mind that they get one extra season of Vazquez for many cheap seasons of the very, very talented Nick Johnson.
With Johnson gone, there are now zero Yankees that I like. I don't think that Johnson will look quite as much like the Bambino in the 'Spos uniform as he did in pinstripes.
With Johnson gone, there are now zero Yankees that I like. I don't think that Johnson will look quite as much like the Bambino in the 'Spos uniform as he did in pinstripes.
But Robert, you would never have acquired Raul Mondesi. If Steinbrenner butts out and hands over $140 million or more to Brian Cashman every year, and lets Cashman figure it out, I'd agree that the Yankees would be dominant. It's never quite that simple in Yankeeland. It is also true that the Yankee budget may not indefinitely be this ridiculous for a variety of economic reasons.
I expect the Yankees to compete every year of the next 5, but to miss the playoffs at least once or twice.
I expect the Yankees to compete every year of the next 5, but to miss the playoffs at least once or twice.
Hijack...
Mr. Bowie Moffatt, with the MLB winter meetings almost upon us, has the BBFL made a decision regarding the ifs, whens and hows of a potential winter trading period?
Mr. Bowie Moffatt, with the MLB winter meetings almost upon us, has the BBFL made a decision regarding the ifs, whens and hows of a potential winter trading period?
In a conversation with Craig last week, I speculated that the Yankees would make the playoffs in 19 of the next 20 years. I'll back off that ... I predict the Yankees will make the playoffs (under the current system) 18 of the next 20 years. The prediction is void only if a hard salary cap is adopted.
Francona to manage the Red Sox---sigh...another job that didn't go to Cito.
Makes you wonder why he is not getting the opportunities, I would hire a two-time world champ in a minute!
Makes you wonder why he is not getting the opportunities, I would hire a two-time world champ in a minute!
It looks like serious thought is being given to making Bernie Williams at least a part-time DH. I expect Lofton to be signed, or a deal worked out for Beltran, and for Giambi to play nearly fulltime at first base. It remains to be seen if JG will be able to handle playing defence over the long term.
Yankees lineup (assuming they sign Lofton - which would be a best case scenario for Yankee-haters):
Soriano 2B
Jeter SS
Sheffield RF
Giambi 1B
Posada C
Bernie DH
Matsui LF
Boone 3B
Lofton CF
Rotation:
Mussina
Vazquez
Pettitte or Colon
Contreras
Lieber or Wells
Pen:
Rivera
Gordon
Hammond
Karsay
Quantrill
Heredia
This team isn't much stronger than the 2003 version of the Yanks, but it isn't any weaker. A Kaz Matsui signing (and move to 2B) with Soriano in centre or traded remains a possibility.
Yankees lineup (assuming they sign Lofton - which would be a best case scenario for Yankee-haters):
Soriano 2B
Jeter SS
Sheffield RF
Giambi 1B
Posada C
Bernie DH
Matsui LF
Boone 3B
Lofton CF
Rotation:
Mussina
Vazquez
Pettitte or Colon
Contreras
Lieber or Wells
Pen:
Rivera
Gordon
Hammond
Karsay
Quantrill
Heredia
This team isn't much stronger than the 2003 version of the Yanks, but it isn't any weaker. A Kaz Matsui signing (and move to 2B) with Soriano in centre or traded remains a possibility.
With Johnson traded, this does clear the decks for Williams to be a DH. I expect the Yankees to acquire Kaz Matsui and move Soriano to centrefield. This would, in my view, make them better in 04 than they were in 03.
Any chance Torre will go with the following? It would serve to remove Soriano from the leadoff spot and introduce better L-R alternation.
R-Jeter SS
S-Bernie DH
R-Sheffield RF
L-Giambi 1B
S-Posada C
R-Soriano 2B
L-Matsui LF
R-Boone 3B
L-Lofton CF
R-Jeter SS
S-Bernie DH
R-Sheffield RF
L-Giambi 1B
S-Posada C
R-Soriano 2B
L-Matsui LF
R-Boone 3B
L-Lofton CF
Chuck, I love that lineup and suspect Torre would, too, but ... Soriano likes leading off and Jeter DOESN'T like leading off, and you got to keep the cover boys happy.
"In a conversation with Craig last week, I speculated that the Yankees would make the playoffs in 19 of the next 20 years. I'll back off that ... I predict the Yankees will make the playoffs (under the current system) 18 of the next 20 years. The prediction is void only if a hard salary cap is adopted."
If you're interested, I'll take that bet. How about $20?
If you're interested, I'll take that bet. How about $20?
Okay, peteski, you're on. That's 20 dollars CDN, 0% interest.
I'll double down if you can accurately pick the years!
Robert and Peteski, let's see, $20 in 2024? Why don't you guys just buy each other a coffee now and make it a gentleman's bet?
http://economics.about.com
I predict the Yankees will make the playoffs (under the current system) 18 of the next 20 years.
Gee, what are the odds they'll make it exactly 18 times but not 17 or 19 or 14. :)
I know what you meant, but I think if they do hit it 19 times, peteski should be able to claim victory.
Cheers,
Mike
I predict the Yankees will make the playoffs (under the current system) 18 of the next 20 years.
Gee, what are the odds they'll make it exactly 18 times but not 17 or 19 or 14. :)
I know what you meant, but I think if they do hit it 19 times, peteski should be able to claim victory.
Cheers,
Mike
With this persisting rumour of ARod for Manny, Boston is left with two all-star SS's. The theory is that Nomar would be dealt to the Dodgers or Angels. If this happens and Boston attempts to re-coup draft picks in that deal, are the Angels permitted to trade the rights to their first round pick since it would now be compensation to the Jays?
The LA Times (from rotoworld) says that the Angels may be interested in Colon. And, if they signed him they would be willing to trade Washburn or Ortiz for offense. What would you guys say about picking up one of these two for the rotation--both had disappointing seasons a year ago and are probably due for some kind of a raise. Not sure of their contract status.
are the Angels permitted to trade the rights to their first round pick
I don't think you can trade draft picks in baseball.
I don't think you can trade draft picks in baseball.
I don't think you can trade draft picks in baseball.
You can't.
Although it would make things more interesting.
You can't.
Although it would make things more interesting.
I think I actually knew that...Either way, I have no idea what the rationale is, any insight into that?
Depends on what the cost for either of the Angels' uncertainties seems to be. I like Ortiz better than Washburn but I wouldn't give up a high quality young player for either of them. I get the feeling that Anaheim would be looking for an impact offensive player which I don't think the Jays can afford to give up, short of a deal moving Delgado which includes requisite prospects in return.
The Mets have confirmed that they have made a $23 million three year offer to Kaz Matsui and if successful will move Jose Reyes to second base. Does this make an ounce of sense to anyone? At this point Miguel Tejada is probably not going to cost much more and if you're going to move one of the best young shortstops in the league from his position wouldn't you rather move him for a sure thing?
Does this make an ounce of sense to anyone? At this point Miguel Tejada is probably not going to cost much more
Perhaps there's other considerations to the Mets offer, such as marketing, et al with Matsui, which they feel will bring in more revenue.
Is there an age difference?
I think I actually knew that...Either way, I have no idea what the rationale is (not trading picks), any insight into that?
I believe the thought was that if you allowed teams to trade picks the deep pocketed teams would trade up to the top to take the best players that the shallow pocketed teams wouldn't take because of money.
With slotting the way it is now that would seem to be less of an issue, but there's probably other factors.
I'd be in favor of it. It would add another layer of strategy which would help out the well managed organizations. It seems pretty silly not to have it now.
Perhaps there's other considerations to the Mets offer, such as marketing, et al with Matsui, which they feel will bring in more revenue.
Is there an age difference?
I think I actually knew that...Either way, I have no idea what the rationale is (not trading picks), any insight into that?
I believe the thought was that if you allowed teams to trade picks the deep pocketed teams would trade up to the top to take the best players that the shallow pocketed teams wouldn't take because of money.
With slotting the way it is now that would seem to be less of an issue, but there's probably other factors.
I'd be in favor of it. It would add another layer of strategy which would help out the well managed organizations. It seems pretty silly not to have it now.
http://economics.about.com
With slotting the way it is now that would seem to be less of an issue, but there's probably other factors.
One factor would be the compensation factor.
Suppose the Yankees traded their first round pick in 2004 to the Reds in exchange for Aaron Boone. Then the Yankees sign Gary Sheffield and are forced to give their first round pick to the Braves. What would happen then?
I suppose you could allow the trading of draft picks between the end of the Free Agency period and the draft, but that's a pretty limited window.
Cheers,
Mike
With slotting the way it is now that would seem to be less of an issue, but there's probably other factors.
One factor would be the compensation factor.
Suppose the Yankees traded their first round pick in 2004 to the Reds in exchange for Aaron Boone. Then the Yankees sign Gary Sheffield and are forced to give their first round pick to the Braves. What would happen then?
I suppose you could allow the trading of draft picks between the end of the Free Agency period and the draft, but that's a pretty limited window.
Cheers,
Mike
Suppose the Yankees traded their first round pick in 2004 to the Reds in exchange for Aaron Boone. Then the Yankees sign Gary Sheffield and are forced to give their first round pick to the Braves. What would happen then?
Good point.
You could work around it, but it'd be tricky (for instance you'd only be allowed to sign Type A players if you had your own 1st round pick, etc..).
But if FA compensation ever went away (like they planned to) this wouldn't be an issue any more.
Good point.
You could work around it, but it'd be tricky (for instance you'd only be allowed to sign Type A players if you had your own 1st round pick, etc..).
But if FA compensation ever went away (like they planned to) this wouldn't be an issue any more.
i think the rules state that they get their highest draft pick
Hi guys,
This is completely off-topic, but does anyone know any pubs in downtown Toronto that are likely to show the fight tommorrow night? I'm really, really thinking Johnson's got a shot. Suggestions?
This is completely off-topic, but does anyone know any pubs in downtown Toronto that are likely to show the fight tommorrow night? I'm really, really thinking Johnson's got a shot. Suggestions?
Some notes from today.
Scott Boras claims a team is willing to give Kevin Millwood a 5 year $75 million contract. Right. And A-Rod would still get a $252 million contract on the market today. We believe you Scott. (cuckoo!)
The Yankees balked at the Dodgers demand of Weaver and Johnson for Kevin Brown deciding to get the younger and apparently more durable Vazquez if they had to give up Johnson. But surely you didn't think this would end their interest in Kevin Brown. They're still placing Weaver on the table for Brown but aren't willing to deal Soriano to satisfy LA's need for righthanded power, or power of any kind for that matter. LA is also looking to trade for Garciaparra and aren't interested in Konerko. The A's are interested in swapping Dye for Lo Duca and throwing in money in order to fill their hole at catcher. (link)
The Orioles are pursuing Guerrero, Tejada, and Javy Lopez.
The Braves for some reason are interested in Jacque Jones. I believe it's so they can realize the rare goal of having three starting outfielders with the same surname.
The Marlins have offered Pudge 2 years at $14 million. They can't offer arbitration so it will have to be resolved by Sunday.
Detroit appears willing to spend money on some good players but unfortunately any bidding they do will likely only be used for leverage against better teams. Hopefully the progress in the market place will not be sabotaged once again by a desperate owner hoping to make a splash.
Oakland, Seattle, Boston, and the Cubs are in the hunt for Guadardo. The Twins would like to keep him.
Scott Boras claims a team is willing to give Kevin Millwood a 5 year $75 million contract. Right. And A-Rod would still get a $252 million contract on the market today. We believe you Scott. (cuckoo!)
The Yankees balked at the Dodgers demand of Weaver and Johnson for Kevin Brown deciding to get the younger and apparently more durable Vazquez if they had to give up Johnson. But surely you didn't think this would end their interest in Kevin Brown. They're still placing Weaver on the table for Brown but aren't willing to deal Soriano to satisfy LA's need for righthanded power, or power of any kind for that matter. LA is also looking to trade for Garciaparra and aren't interested in Konerko. The A's are interested in swapping Dye for Lo Duca and throwing in money in order to fill their hole at catcher. (link)
The Orioles are pursuing Guerrero, Tejada, and Javy Lopez.
The Braves for some reason are interested in Jacque Jones. I believe it's so they can realize the rare goal of having three starting outfielders with the same surname.
The Marlins have offered Pudge 2 years at $14 million. They can't offer arbitration so it will have to be resolved by Sunday.
Detroit appears willing to spend money on some good players but unfortunately any bidding they do will likely only be used for leverage against better teams. Hopefully the progress in the market place will not be sabotaged once again by a desperate owner hoping to make a splash.
Oakland, Seattle, Boston, and the Cubs are in the hunt for Guadardo. The Twins would like to keep him.
three starting outfielders with the same surname.
I believe this has been done only once before.
I believe this has been done only once before.
When, Craig? The DiMaggios never got into the same OF, did they?
I wonder if any team would be foolish enough to give Ivan Rodriguez a 3 year contract, let alone a 5 year contract. Ivan's a great player, probably the greatest catcher ever, but he started catching in the majors at age 20 and he's now 32. The records of the catchers most comparable to him, Ted Simmons, Yogi Berra and Gary Carter from age 32 to 35 shows a tremendous decline from their performance in the prime years.
Pudge is still a good defensive catcher, and he will have some value over the next 3 years. But, if your were going to give me a choice of catchers for 2006, names like Mauer, Quiroz, maybe Mathis and Navarro, would be on my lips. The odds are that Pudge will be merely average at that point.
Pudge is still a good defensive catcher, and he will have some value over the next 3 years. But, if your were going to give me a choice of catchers for 2006, names like Mauer, Quiroz, maybe Mathis and Navarro, would be on my lips. The odds are that Pudge will be merely average at that point.
Oh! I think I know this one - was it the Alou brothers in the early 60's with the San Fransico Giants.
Are the Angels still interested in Bartolo C? Are there other type-A free agents the Angels might sign that would push back the Jays' compensation picks for Escobar?
Right!
Mateo, Jesus and Felipe. By the way their father surname is Rojas and Alou their mothers' They were told not to try to straighten ( inmigration officers mistake ) it back by Sf front office. Moises surnames are Rojas and Pujols no Alou anymore, but he considered important to show which kind of genes he's got...
Mateo, Jesus and Felipe. By the way their father surname is Rojas and Alou their mothers' They were told not to try to straighten ( inmigration officers mistake ) it back by Sf front office. Moises surnames are Rojas and Pujols no Alou anymore, but he considered important to show which kind of genes he's got...
What year did the Alous all play in the same outfield together?
I was pretty sure I read that that never happened....
I was pretty sure I read that that never happened....
Ivan's a great player, probably the greatest catcher ever
Really? I think that Berra, Campanella, Fisk, Bench, Piazza, Carter, Cochrane and the current Yankees manager might disagree.
Really? I think that Berra, Campanella, Fisk, Bench, Piazza, Carter, Cochrane and the current Yankees manager might disagree.
Yeah, really. I won't do the comparison for all of the ones you mentioned. Bill James had Berra as the best over all of those except Piazza. Ivan Rodriguez' offensive stats are modestly behind Berra's, but his defence was and is significantly better. Berra caught a significant number of games from age 23 to age 34. So far, Rodriguez has caught from age 20 to age 31, and is likely to be going for another 2-3 years at least. Over the entire career, I'd take Rodriguez.
At his prime, 99-00, Rodriguez went .335/.365/.600 and was a great defensive catcher. In his prime, Campanella was a better hitter and was probably as good defensively, but Campanella's career was much shorter. Piazza was a significantly better hitter in his prime, but his catching career should have been over years ago.
At his prime, 99-00, Rodriguez went .335/.365/.600 and was a great defensive catcher. In his prime, Campanella was a better hitter and was probably as good defensively, but Campanella's career was much shorter. Piazza was a significantly better hitter in his prime, but his catching career should have been over years ago.
Moises surnames are Rojas and Pujols no Alou anymore, but he considered important to show which kind of genes he's got...
People, we're not trying to sell genes here.
People, we're not trying to sell genes here.
Piazza was a significantly better hitter in his prime, but his catching career should have been over years ago.
Why? So the gap between Piazza and a replacement level first baseman could be less than the gap between him and a replacement level catcher?
Just because you are a relatively weak defensive player at your position does not automatically mean you should be moved.
Why? So the gap between Piazza and a replacement level first baseman could be less than the gap between him and a replacement level catcher?
Just because you are a relatively weak defensive player at your position does not automatically mean you should be moved.
The Alous never actually played in the same outfield in a regular season game. They did so in a spring training game as a publicity stunt. (At least, that's what I read.)
I know the A's had two Hendersons in the OF for a while. I bet it's happened before where all three had the same surname.
I know the A's had two Hendersons in the OF for a while. I bet it's happened before where all three had the same surname.
I don't know how to do links and all that but here is a link to an AJC story that has more of Scott Boras(s)' crazy talk. below the url I have my response to this story from another message board I post at.
http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/1203/07sidebar.html
I would listen to these arguments with more respect if it wasn't being thrown about by Scott Boras(s). The man has singlehandedly driven up the market with the A-Rod deal a few yrs ago. He's just PO'ed that he can't get such big deals now that owners are showing corporate responsibility.
His statements are true to an EXTENT. The ballclubs that are owned by corporate entities do keep the rights fees down for broadcasts because who in their right mind is gonna overpay for the broadcast of their sports team on the broadcasting arm of the corporation? (one exception YES network but that's an abberation. Besides it's a pay network so they recoup any losses from such an expensive rights fee.)
Boras(s) just has sour grapes tho I do agree that teams like Milwaukee and Tampa should spend more. MLB needs a salary floor AND a hard cap.
http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/1203/07sidebar.html
I would listen to these arguments with more respect if it wasn't being thrown about by Scott Boras(s). The man has singlehandedly driven up the market with the A-Rod deal a few yrs ago. He's just PO'ed that he can't get such big deals now that owners are showing corporate responsibility.
His statements are true to an EXTENT. The ballclubs that are owned by corporate entities do keep the rights fees down for broadcasts because who in their right mind is gonna overpay for the broadcast of their sports team on the broadcasting arm of the corporation? (one exception YES network but that's an abberation. Besides it's a pay network so they recoup any losses from such an expensive rights fee.)
Boras(s) just has sour grapes tho I do agree that teams like Milwaukee and Tampa should spend more. MLB needs a salary floor AND a hard cap.
Just cuz' I was bored - here is a couple of little tidbits about the Alou boys.
The brothers Alou made baseball history at the Polo Grounds in New York September 10, 1963.
In the top of the 8th, Giants' manager Alvin Dark had Jesus pinch-hit for Jose Pagan. Next up was Matty who batted for pitcher Bob Garibaldi and struck out. Never before had three brothers batted consecutively in the same game but Felipe made it a hat trick with his appearance against Mets' pitcher Carl Willey. Felipe also made an out, which left a bit of an embarrassing mark on the talented Domincans, but it was one of the more memorable moments of the '63 season
and
September 22, 1963: For the first time, all three Alou brothers share the outfield. In the seventh inning, Matty Alou is in LF, Felipe Alou replaces Willie Mays in CF, and Jesus Alou is in RF. In the 8th, the three are retired, 1, 2, 3. But the offense comes from Willie McCovey who hits three homers as the Giants whip the Mets, 13–4.
The brothers Alou made baseball history at the Polo Grounds in New York September 10, 1963.
In the top of the 8th, Giants' manager Alvin Dark had Jesus pinch-hit for Jose Pagan. Next up was Matty who batted for pitcher Bob Garibaldi and struck out. Never before had three brothers batted consecutively in the same game but Felipe made it a hat trick with his appearance against Mets' pitcher Carl Willey. Felipe also made an out, which left a bit of an embarrassing mark on the talented Domincans, but it was one of the more memorable moments of the '63 season
and
September 22, 1963: For the first time, all three Alou brothers share the outfield. In the seventh inning, Matty Alou is in LF, Felipe Alou replaces Willie Mays in CF, and Jesus Alou is in RF. In the 8th, the three are retired, 1, 2, 3. But the offense comes from Willie McCovey who hits three homers as the Giants whip the Mets, 13–4.
The man has singlehandedly driven up the market with the A-Rod deal a few yrs ago.
If an agent is even capable of such a thing then good for him. It just means he's doing his job well.
Just because Boras goes around saying that Millwood is worth $75M for 5 years, doesn't mean someone actually has to pay him that. If he can find someone to do it, then he deserves praise, not scorn. As far as I know, he's not bringing loaded guns into contract negotiations.
While it's true that Boras may be guilty of raising his clients' expectations too high this off-season (given the collus..., ahem, corporate responsibility), to paint him as the devil and the owners as the victims is laughable.
BTW, if you want to blame anyone for Rodriguez's huge contract, blame Tom Hicks, who outbid the Braves by something like 50%.
If an agent is even capable of such a thing then good for him. It just means he's doing his job well.
Just because Boras goes around saying that Millwood is worth $75M for 5 years, doesn't mean someone actually has to pay him that. If he can find someone to do it, then he deserves praise, not scorn. As far as I know, he's not bringing loaded guns into contract negotiations.
While it's true that Boras may be guilty of raising his clients' expectations too high this off-season (given the collus..., ahem, corporate responsibility), to paint him as the devil and the owners as the victims is laughable.
BTW, if you want to blame anyone for Rodriguez's huge contract, blame Tom Hicks, who outbid the Braves by something like 50%.
Chuck that's true my comments were made in a pique of rage. (or as much rage as I can muster i'm a mellow guy) Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Boras go to Hicks and actually lie about the competition surrounding A-Rod free agency at the time? I have to say that Hicks really buried himself with that contract and he's been paying the price somewhat but i'm sure that there was SOME kind of monetary gain from it.
Nonetheless from a strictly objective view I give Boras credit for what he's done but I just can't do that because he's done too many things and said too many things that just are flat out objectionable. I've also read/seen interviews with the man and he just doesn't strike me as a godo guy. I shudder to think whats it like dealing with him.
Nonetheless from a strictly objective view I give Boras credit for what he's done but I just can't do that because he's done too many things and said too many things that just are flat out objectionable. I've also read/seen interviews with the man and he just doesn't strike me as a godo guy. I shudder to think whats it like dealing with him.
didn't Boras go to Hicks and actually lie about the competition surrounding A-Rod free agency at the time?
Who could know this? And even if he did, wouldn't this be considered a standard issue negotiating practice?
Hicks really buried himself with that contract
Has he? If I recall correctly, the Rangers have outspent their divisional peers even excluding Rodriguez's contract. In other words, they have paid more for their 24-non-ARod players than the Angels, A's and Mariners have spent on their 25-man rosters.
While ARod's contract has certainly been steep, it's the Chan Ho Parks and Todd Van Poppels that continue to kill the Rangers. Hicks is starting with the best player in the AL and then throwing enough money around to be able to compete. But he's spending that money poorly and ARod is somehow getting the blame.
he's done too many things and said too many things that just are flat out objectionable.
He's an agent, not a moral ethicist. He has a job to do and will say what he has to say. If you're looking to Boras for an objective view of the world, you're getting what you deserve. If you have an appetite for fiction, why not go ask an owner for his version of the truth?
Who could know this? And even if he did, wouldn't this be considered a standard issue negotiating practice?
Hicks really buried himself with that contract
Has he? If I recall correctly, the Rangers have outspent their divisional peers even excluding Rodriguez's contract. In other words, they have paid more for their 24-non-ARod players than the Angels, A's and Mariners have spent on their 25-man rosters.
While ARod's contract has certainly been steep, it's the Chan Ho Parks and Todd Van Poppels that continue to kill the Rangers. Hicks is starting with the best player in the AL and then throwing enough money around to be able to compete. But he's spending that money poorly and ARod is somehow getting the blame.
he's done too many things and said too many things that just are flat out objectionable.
He's an agent, not a moral ethicist. He has a job to do and will say what he has to say. If you're looking to Boras for an objective view of the world, you're getting what you deserve. If you have an appetite for fiction, why not go ask an owner for his version of the truth?
I have to say that Hicks really buried himself with that contract
Not really. The Rangers paid $70-$80 million in salaries this year, EXCLUDING ARod.
That's an amount less than what the Marlins paid in salaries to their entire team. They seemed to do ok.
Even if the Rangers decrease to $80 million they're paying about $60 million to 24 other players.
The Jays are going to have a $50 million payroll with about $18 going to Delgado and with $32 million going to the other 24 players. I think 88 wins for the Fighting Jays is a reasonable goal.
It's not ARod's contract that's the problem. He's the most valuable player in the league.
Not really. The Rangers paid $70-$80 million in salaries this year, EXCLUDING ARod.
That's an amount less than what the Marlins paid in salaries to their entire team. They seemed to do ok.
Even if the Rangers decrease to $80 million they're paying about $60 million to 24 other players.
The Jays are going to have a $50 million payroll with about $18 going to Delgado and with $32 million going to the other 24 players. I think 88 wins for the Fighting Jays is a reasonable goal.
It's not ARod's contract that's the problem. He's the most valuable player in the league.
I'm not a Scott Boras fan myself, but he does a fine job for his clients. As R Billie pointed out above, he negotiated an escape clause for Pudge after one year -- the Marlins can't offer him arbitration, so they now have less than 36 hours to meet his demands or lose him. Considering his client's only other rumoured option was two years in Baltimore, that was very clever, if not brilliant.
SportsmanTO, the easiest way to post a link is to paste it into the Homepage (optional) box under your name when you add a comment. Then you can just say "click on my name" (or COMN) for the link. There are also some fairly basic HTML commands that allow you to turn part of your text into a link. We ask all readers not to paste long URLs into messages, as they screw up the page formatting in our blog software. Thanks.
SportsmanTO, the easiest way to post a link is to paste it into the Homepage (optional) box under your name when you add a comment. Then you can just say "click on my name" (or COMN) for the link. There are also some fairly basic HTML commands that allow you to turn part of your text into a link. We ask all readers not to paste long URLs into messages, as they screw up the page formatting in our blog software. Thanks.
Thanks for the tip Coach. I hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way as I really appreciate this fine site and I thank you very much for providing this great forum along with the other "boxers".
I guess it's going to take me a LOOONG time before I even become half as intelligent as the regulars here who i've grown to respect a great deal. (I've been reading the archives like a madman!)
Just one little comment regarding moral ethics and player agents. I don't really care that Boras is smarmy and leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths but he sticks out like a sore thumb compared to some other agents in other sports.
I refer you to the NHL where the player agents are generally some very smart guys who know how to get a deal done (for the most part) and don't neccesarily try to drive up the marketplace on purpose. The current GM of the Phoenix Coyotes used to be THE premier player agent. You'd never see a baseball owner hiring a Jeff Moorad or Scott Boras as their GM!
Anyways I hope to be a regular contributor and visitor to the Box. :D
I guess it's going to take me a LOOONG time before I even become half as intelligent as the regulars here who i've grown to respect a great deal. (I've been reading the archives like a madman!)
Just one little comment regarding moral ethics and player agents. I don't really care that Boras is smarmy and leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths but he sticks out like a sore thumb compared to some other agents in other sports.
I refer you to the NHL where the player agents are generally some very smart guys who know how to get a deal done (for the most part) and don't neccesarily try to drive up the marketplace on purpose. The current GM of the Phoenix Coyotes used to be THE premier player agent. You'd never see a baseball owner hiring a Jeff Moorad or Scott Boras as their GM!
Anyways I hope to be a regular contributor and visitor to the Box. :D
I'm sure that Moorad and Boras must make more money as agents than they would as baseball GMs.
However, I do echo your sentiments, Sportman TO, that Boras bears some responsibility for the current state of the market. However, he doesn't owe that responsibility to fans or baseball. He owes that responsibility to his other clients.
Boras, like everyone else, didn't know where the market was headed when he negotiated Rodriguez's contract. But now he's the one that has to explain to his other clients why he can't get them the contracts that he was getting two years ago.
However, I do echo your sentiments, Sportman TO, that Boras bears some responsibility for the current state of the market. However, he doesn't owe that responsibility to fans or baseball. He owes that responsibility to his other clients.
Boras, like everyone else, didn't know where the market was headed when he negotiated Rodriguez's contract. But now he's the one that has to explain to his other clients why he can't get them the contracts that he was getting two years ago.
Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Boras go to Hicks and actually lie about the competition surrounding A-Rod free agency at the time?
Boras's behavour isn't any more objectionable than what many owners have done over the years. Before the union was established, management would regularly lie to their players in contract negotiations. A player would want to know what other players were making (that information was not public at the time) and management would often quote a salary figures that were significantly lower than the actual ones. The player, having no reason not to believe management, would then agree to a contract for less than he deserved to get, based on what his peers were actually making.
The owners are no doubt still lying in negotiations to the extent they can get away with it. There's nothing stoping a general manager from saying he has a trade in the works for another player that he will make if he can't come to an agreement with the player he's negotiating with. It's the duty of both the agent and the management team to determine what is true and what isn't. Neither side has an obligation to be upfront about other pending offers/moves.
Business is often a dirty game; Scott Boras just happens to play the game better than most.
Boras's behavour isn't any more objectionable than what many owners have done over the years. Before the union was established, management would regularly lie to their players in contract negotiations. A player would want to know what other players were making (that information was not public at the time) and management would often quote a salary figures that were significantly lower than the actual ones. The player, having no reason not to believe management, would then agree to a contract for less than he deserved to get, based on what his peers were actually making.
The owners are no doubt still lying in negotiations to the extent they can get away with it. There's nothing stoping a general manager from saying he has a trade in the works for another player that he will make if he can't come to an agreement with the player he's negotiating with. It's the duty of both the agent and the management team to determine what is true and what isn't. Neither side has an obligation to be upfront about other pending offers/moves.
Business is often a dirty game; Scott Boras just happens to play the game better than most.
I just have to wonder, is there anyone out there who would want Scott Boras as an agent? If I was drafted (a huge longshot I admit) I wouldn't have him as my agent. I'd prefer a winning team and take less money than have an agent squeeze a team dry for my services and not be able to compete. I'd actually probably want to take the Schilling, Sheffield stance and negotiate the contract myself with some legal advice from someone else.
I'd prefer a winning team and take less money than have an agent squeeze a team dry for my services and not be able to compete.
I hate sounding like a Boras apologist, but I am confused about people's perceptions here. Boras doesn't tell his clients where to play any more than he dupes owners out of money they are not prepared to pay.
I don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, but do people think that Boras had to manipulate Rodriguez to play for the Rangers, a team that won the AL West in 2 of the 3 seasons prior to his arrival?
Rodriguez, as a FA in 2000, probably had two criteria: cash and the chance to win. He obviously weighed the former more heavily than the latter when choosing Texas over Atlanta, but it was his choice to make and his alone.
If Rodriguez regrets his decision, then that's his damn fault. If Hicks' regrets his decision, then that's his damn fault. Boras, as the dealmaker, gets deals on the table. Everyone after that must live with the consequences of their decisions.
Obviously Boras would prefer x% of $250M than x% of $150M. Almost certainly he's a greasy weasel in negotations. But there's no shortage of owners who are pretty darned greasy in their own right.
I'd prefer a winning team and take less money than have an agent squeeze a team dry for my services and not be able to compete.
Not sure if this is an ARod reference or not, but the Rangers haven't been squeezed dry so much as they appear to have been squeezed stupid with a bunch of bad post-ARod signings.
I hate sounding like a Boras apologist, but I am confused about people's perceptions here. Boras doesn't tell his clients where to play any more than he dupes owners out of money they are not prepared to pay.
I don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, but do people think that Boras had to manipulate Rodriguez to play for the Rangers, a team that won the AL West in 2 of the 3 seasons prior to his arrival?
Rodriguez, as a FA in 2000, probably had two criteria: cash and the chance to win. He obviously weighed the former more heavily than the latter when choosing Texas over Atlanta, but it was his choice to make and his alone.
If Rodriguez regrets his decision, then that's his damn fault. If Hicks' regrets his decision, then that's his damn fault. Boras, as the dealmaker, gets deals on the table. Everyone after that must live with the consequences of their decisions.
Obviously Boras would prefer x% of $250M than x% of $150M. Almost certainly he's a greasy weasel in negotations. But there's no shortage of owners who are pretty darned greasy in their own right.
I'd prefer a winning team and take less money than have an agent squeeze a team dry for my services and not be able to compete.
Not sure if this is an ARod reference or not, but the Rangers haven't been squeezed dry so much as they appear to have been squeezed stupid with a bunch of bad post-ARod signings.
I don't think that Boras manipulated ARod into signing with Texas but I definatly think that he manipulated the ownership into overpaying for him. I remember the reports at the time saying that the next highest offer to ARod was something in the neighborhood of 19-20 million a year, still a huge amount but significantly less than the 25 a year that he averages now. It's true that the Rangers downfall has mostly been because of signings after ARod but they also vastly overpaid for those players, and is that because they were Boras players or because of the management? I lean toward more it was Boras manipulating the management again. This leads me to believe that Boras doesn't actually care about which teams his players play for as long as they get huge paydays.
I definatly think that he manipulated the ownership into overpaying for him
Pity the poor billionaire Tom Hicks, so easily manipulated by a callous agent. What chance could a helpless billionaire stand in business negotations? What could a billionaire possibly know about financial dealings? He'd be helpless when dealing with a shrewd player agent. He'd be out of his league.
This leads me to believe that Boras doesn't actually care about which teams his players play for as long as they get huge paydays.
And what exactly should the role of an agent be if not this? If his clients tell him to get the best deal he can and he does this, he's somehow guilty of something?
What should Boras's job be? To keep salaries in line with what owners, circa 2003, decide (collectively) that they would rather suddenly be paying their employees? To only have his clients sign with the Yankees or Red Sox?
Pity the poor billionaire Tom Hicks, so easily manipulated by a callous agent. What chance could a helpless billionaire stand in business negotations? What could a billionaire possibly know about financial dealings? He'd be helpless when dealing with a shrewd player agent. He'd be out of his league.
This leads me to believe that Boras doesn't actually care about which teams his players play for as long as they get huge paydays.
And what exactly should the role of an agent be if not this? If his clients tell him to get the best deal he can and he does this, he's somehow guilty of something?
What should Boras's job be? To keep salaries in line with what owners, circa 2003, decide (collectively) that they would rather suddenly be paying their employees? To only have his clients sign with the Yankees or Red Sox?
The theory that an agent, player, GM or owner has no reponsibility to the game is giving far too much slack to these (predominantly) men. If we're to place a barrier between what happens on the field and how they negociate contracts off the field (with the "if they're 'better' at it then all the more power to them," mantality), we permit these actors to erode a game that has become just as much ours as it is theirs. To be clear, I think there is a major problem with the desperity in the minimum and highest salery. I do believe that the minimum is a fairly low sum given that the risk for injury is so great in professional sport, especially considering the ware-and-tare a player's body will go through while making peanuts in the minors.
Players have an obligation to play as hard as they can with the goal of winning but they are also representing the MLB. Being that representitive is something the player agrees to in any contract he signs starting with his first one after he's drafted to one of the game's 30 clubs. Using the excuse that baseball is a business no longer cuts it, that player is playing in a game that has hundreds of years of culture behind it. This should be the framework he has in mind when negociating a contract. To argue that he's "just looking out for his family," strikes me as a fair arguement -- except no family of an MLB player, or anyone else (save the Deion family's 19 children) needs anything more than $1-3 Million per year, (taking into consideration the possibility of an injury that may impeid the player of providing an income post-retirement from baseball). As for the player's agent, s/he does have a responsibility to be ethical. Again, the "business of sports" arguement falls on deaf ears here because, as previously stated in this thread, an agent is merely one who offers and communicates on behalf of a player in regards to contracts and contractual dis/agreements. Most of these agents are also lawyers and, lawyer jokes aside, they subsequently are expected to uphold a certain moral standard.
If the players are supposed to play fair and earn something closer to a reasonable wage, owners and GMs have the obligation to ensure their players are paid well enough to keep themselves in proper condition, so their families are healthy and to keep in mind that a career can be over before a player sees his first pitch. Bargaining with ethics applies just as much to an owner/GM as it does to an agent but an owner or GM also takes on the same responsibility for representing the same culture that a player represents -- to understand it, embrace it and work to further it for the better. In this comes understanding of the past where players and owners alike, were exploited and why both of those extremes has cheapened the sport.
Is this idealistic? Absolutely not. Though I make no twisted prediction that this will happen anytime soon. Nonetheless, the business model that seems widely embraced in this forum is a sadistic practice that will eventually lead us back into labour unrest. By virtue of that, the erosion of the game will continue and the force that brings 300,000+ readers to this site will fade.
Players have an obligation to play as hard as they can with the goal of winning but they are also representing the MLB. Being that representitive is something the player agrees to in any contract he signs starting with his first one after he's drafted to one of the game's 30 clubs. Using the excuse that baseball is a business no longer cuts it, that player is playing in a game that has hundreds of years of culture behind it. This should be the framework he has in mind when negociating a contract. To argue that he's "just looking out for his family," strikes me as a fair arguement -- except no family of an MLB player, or anyone else (save the Deion family's 19 children) needs anything more than $1-3 Million per year, (taking into consideration the possibility of an injury that may impeid the player of providing an income post-retirement from baseball). As for the player's agent, s/he does have a responsibility to be ethical. Again, the "business of sports" arguement falls on deaf ears here because, as previously stated in this thread, an agent is merely one who offers and communicates on behalf of a player in regards to contracts and contractual dis/agreements. Most of these agents are also lawyers and, lawyer jokes aside, they subsequently are expected to uphold a certain moral standard.
If the players are supposed to play fair and earn something closer to a reasonable wage, owners and GMs have the obligation to ensure their players are paid well enough to keep themselves in proper condition, so their families are healthy and to keep in mind that a career can be over before a player sees his first pitch. Bargaining with ethics applies just as much to an owner/GM as it does to an agent but an owner or GM also takes on the same responsibility for representing the same culture that a player represents -- to understand it, embrace it and work to further it for the better. In this comes understanding of the past where players and owners alike, were exploited and why both of those extremes has cheapened the sport.
Is this idealistic? Absolutely not. Though I make no twisted prediction that this will happen anytime soon. Nonetheless, the business model that seems widely embraced in this forum is a sadistic practice that will eventually lead us back into labour unrest. By virtue of that, the erosion of the game will continue and the force that brings 300,000+ readers to this site will fade.
Geez, I'd love to have Boras as my agent. I'm no ballplayer -- I wasn't even when I actually played ball as a kid, either -- but if, say, Boras started representing writers, I'd jump at the chance to hire someone who could get me 180% of the expected maximum rate of compensation.
And you know what? As an "artist," I may daydream about a Pulitzer or a best-seller, but as someone who wants to take care of my home, my family and myself first and foremost, I'd take the 180% pay to write what other wannabe-writers will doubtless see as soulless business press releases, advertising copy and corporate annual reports than "take less for a chance at creating real art."
After I took care of my family, I might think about the real art angle. It's the Karl Malone/Gary Payton approach, I guess.
I've never understood the so-called fans who blast players for not taking far less money for a perceived shot at a ring (then usually turn around and blast other players for signing with the teams that actually do have an annual legitimate shot at a ring) ... c'mon people.
If someone offered you $250,000 dollars to work at a job you were great at and enjoyed but ultimately didn't lead you to a chance at whatever your profession's Pulitzer is and someone else offered you $150,000 to do work that required exactly the same skill set, that you enjoyed just as much, and that provided you just a chance at that brass ring ...
Geez, I hope this doesn't make me a fiscal conservative. But I guess I'd take the extra $100K a year and plan for my family's future.
Back to the baseball note at hand, remember the other three teams A-Rod supposedly had offers from? New York -- that's the Mets, not the Yankees. Think he'd have a ring if he was there? Atlanta. Think of all the things they couldn't have done finanically if they'd signed him three years ago. Would he have a ring? Possibly. Los Angeles. Again, possibly. But there are no sure things there. (See "Angels, Anaheim" and "Marlins, Florida".) And what do those three teams have in common, incidentally? They're all National League teams. Takes A-Rod out of a career-long comfort zone.
Take my Pulitzer v. Press Release example above and now add to it that I have to leave Texas, already having left New York, for, oh, say, California. Maybe it's not a big deal. But maybe it is.
Financial security. Comfort zones. Legitimately, who can blame anyone for weighing those things above "chance to win"?
And you know what? As an "artist," I may daydream about a Pulitzer or a best-seller, but as someone who wants to take care of my home, my family and myself first and foremost, I'd take the 180% pay to write what other wannabe-writers will doubtless see as soulless business press releases, advertising copy and corporate annual reports than "take less for a chance at creating real art."
After I took care of my family, I might think about the real art angle. It's the Karl Malone/Gary Payton approach, I guess.
I've never understood the so-called fans who blast players for not taking far less money for a perceived shot at a ring (then usually turn around and blast other players for signing with the teams that actually do have an annual legitimate shot at a ring) ... c'mon people.
If someone offered you $250,000 dollars to work at a job you were great at and enjoyed but ultimately didn't lead you to a chance at whatever your profession's Pulitzer is and someone else offered you $150,000 to do work that required exactly the same skill set, that you enjoyed just as much, and that provided you just a chance at that brass ring ...
Geez, I hope this doesn't make me a fiscal conservative. But I guess I'd take the extra $100K a year and plan for my family's future.
Back to the baseball note at hand, remember the other three teams A-Rod supposedly had offers from? New York -- that's the Mets, not the Yankees. Think he'd have a ring if he was there? Atlanta. Think of all the things they couldn't have done finanically if they'd signed him three years ago. Would he have a ring? Possibly. Los Angeles. Again, possibly. But there are no sure things there. (See "Angels, Anaheim" and "Marlins, Florida".) And what do those three teams have in common, incidentally? They're all National League teams. Takes A-Rod out of a career-long comfort zone.
Take my Pulitzer v. Press Release example above and now add to it that I have to leave Texas, already having left New York, for, oh, say, California. Maybe it's not a big deal. But maybe it is.
Financial security. Comfort zones. Legitimately, who can blame anyone for weighing those things above "chance to win"?
Mick, that arguement runs severely thin when we're dealing with an average player salery of over $1 Million. If a player of ARod calibre makes himself available at a reasonable price, he could play anywhere he pleases without compromising his family's future or his chance at a ring. Though I don't place the same importance on winning a ring as much as I do finding somewhere that a player would be happy to play (generally, where players are comfortable winning just seems to happen).
With your example of being an author, most who write cannot make a living through the material they create. Royalties don't exactly give the author a percentage financial credit equal to the amount of time invested in quality writing. Not even the greatest authors get a fair deal on royalties, it's the signing bonuses that pay their bills. So to that end, taking a bit more money if your family is in need seems far more conceivable than the average ball player doing the same thing.
What does one do with $252 Million? There is absolutely no possible way for that money to be spent in a responsible or useful manner...Alex Rodriguez might actually have a negative marginal utility for the last million he makes, lol.
With your example of being an author, most who write cannot make a living through the material they create. Royalties don't exactly give the author a percentage financial credit equal to the amount of time invested in quality writing. Not even the greatest authors get a fair deal on royalties, it's the signing bonuses that pay their bills. So to that end, taking a bit more money if your family is in need seems far more conceivable than the average ball player doing the same thing.
What does one do with $252 Million? There is absolutely no possible way for that money to be spent in a responsible or useful manner...Alex Rodriguez might actually have a negative marginal utility for the last million he makes, lol.
Players have a duty to their family to secure their financial future as much as possible. Keep in mind, also, that over a TEN-YEAR PERIOD, Texas had a pretty good chance of being a contender. No one knew that the market would stop exploding, and I'm sure that all parties involved assumed that A-Rod's 25 million would end up being a bargain down the line (assuming he kept producing).
And, this is going back a ways, but I think Josh Gibson might have something to say about the "greatest C" argument, as well. Obviously we can't argue objectively about a guy we have no meaningful stats for, but any guy who can be one of the best HR hitters in history while catching a good game would be at or near the top of my list.
And, this is going back a ways, but I think Josh Gibson might have something to say about the "greatest C" argument, as well. Obviously we can't argue objectively about a guy we have no meaningful stats for, but any guy who can be one of the best HR hitters in history while catching a good game would be at or near the top of my list.
Mick, that arguement runs severely thin when we're dealing with an average player [salary] of over $1 Million.
No, it doesn't. Just because A-Rod's earning potential in his prime is far greater than mine at a total level, why would I begrudge him the same decision-making process I use?
In fact, I would think athletes would have an even greater incentive to weigh the financial portion of the decision. If my career path plays out as one would expect, I will reach my maximum earning potential around age 55. A-Rod is already past the point of his maximum earning potential as his next contract, barring a Bondsian explosion from him and five-straight 70-homer seasons, is likely to be significantly less than the infamous quarter-billion of three years ago.
OK, so his maximum earning potential is is around $25M in a year while mine, if I'm very lucky, is about one-half of one percent of that. That's surreal and likely impossible for anyone writing or reading on this blog to absorb or grasp. But the decision-making factors -- financial security, comfort, and perks (either in that order or flip-flopping the last two) are identical.
No, it doesn't. Just because A-Rod's earning potential in his prime is far greater than mine at a total level, why would I begrudge him the same decision-making process I use?
In fact, I would think athletes would have an even greater incentive to weigh the financial portion of the decision. If my career path plays out as one would expect, I will reach my maximum earning potential around age 55. A-Rod is already past the point of his maximum earning potential as his next contract, barring a Bondsian explosion from him and five-straight 70-homer seasons, is likely to be significantly less than the infamous quarter-billion of three years ago.
OK, so his maximum earning potential is is around $25M in a year while mine, if I'm very lucky, is about one-half of one percent of that. That's surreal and likely impossible for anyone writing or reading on this blog to absorb or grasp. But the decision-making factors -- financial security, comfort, and perks (either in that order or flip-flopping the last two) are identical.
Mick,
Since in both of your scenarios I enjoy the job equally, then of course I'd take more money.
An artist's life is a completely different proposition. An artist committed to his or her artistic work starts out in a great sea of uncertainty. It is very likely that they will fail utterly in pursuit of their dream. If they succeed, only then do money, opportunities and financial security arrive.
I don't think many would-be artists become wealthy doing soulless work only to then jump out of that and into creating great art. Most great artists are so driven by their "vision" that they have great difficulty in putting any real energy into anything else (they may take a mundane job, but they do it merely to survive).
Since in both of your scenarios I enjoy the job equally, then of course I'd take more money.
An artist's life is a completely different proposition. An artist committed to his or her artistic work starts out in a great sea of uncertainty. It is very likely that they will fail utterly in pursuit of their dream. If they succeed, only then do money, opportunities and financial security arrive.
I don't think many would-be artists become wealthy doing soulless work only to then jump out of that and into creating great art. Most great artists are so driven by their "vision" that they have great difficulty in putting any real energy into anything else (they may take a mundane job, but they do it merely to survive).
"There is absolutely no possible way for that money to be spent in a responsible or useful manner.."
Actually there is ... it's called philanthropy. The industrialist Andrew Carnegie, who at one time was probably wealthier than anyone in the world is today (after adjusting to modern dollars), funded libraries and various cultural activities across the United States.
In our own time, George Soros has spent a significant portion of his wealth promoting democratic institutions in Central and Eastern Europe.
Actually there is ... it's called philanthropy. The industrialist Andrew Carnegie, who at one time was probably wealthier than anyone in the world is today (after adjusting to modern dollars), funded libraries and various cultural activities across the United States.
In our own time, George Soros has spent a significant portion of his wealth promoting democratic institutions in Central and Eastern Europe.
I don't think many would-be artists become wealthy doing soulless work only to then jump out of that and into creating great art. Most great artists are so driven by their "vision" that they have great difficulty in putting any real energy into anything else (they may take a mundane job, but they do it merely to survive).
Robert, I must respectfully disagree. The post-Romantic North American legend of the starving artist is just that ... legend. For every Edgar Allan Poe who ended up desitute, addicted to opium and dead in the gutter, for every suicidal Sylvia Plath, for every story like that, I can come up with 10 like Richard Bach who was (and is) a pilot, Sam Clemens who was a newspaperman and ... well, you get the idea.
When I was teaching writing for a living, that's one of the things I tried to disavow my students of early on. To be completely consumed by one's art is one way to go, sure, but like Poe and Plathe, you end up wildly successful posthumously. They generally didn't like that idea.
I also think I may have overstated by using words like "Pulitzer." There is art, and thus enjoyment, in writing for business readers. No, it's not the traditional Great Novel every writers is supposed to want to write, but it's using one's talents and skills (which are different things) daily in an environment that provides an opportunity for financial reward as well.
I think the comparison to the modern athlete is apt, though again the money is just stupidly out of proportion in the comparison.
Robert, I must respectfully disagree. The post-Romantic North American legend of the starving artist is just that ... legend. For every Edgar Allan Poe who ended up desitute, addicted to opium and dead in the gutter, for every suicidal Sylvia Plath, for every story like that, I can come up with 10 like Richard Bach who was (and is) a pilot, Sam Clemens who was a newspaperman and ... well, you get the idea.
When I was teaching writing for a living, that's one of the things I tried to disavow my students of early on. To be completely consumed by one's art is one way to go, sure, but like Poe and Plathe, you end up wildly successful posthumously. They generally didn't like that idea.
I also think I may have overstated by using words like "Pulitzer." There is art, and thus enjoyment, in writing for business readers. No, it's not the traditional Great Novel every writers is supposed to want to write, but it's using one's talents and skills (which are different things) daily in an environment that provides an opportunity for financial reward as well.
I think the comparison to the modern athlete is apt, though again the money is just stupidly out of proportion in the comparison.
No, I never said they all ended up poor. I said they could become wealthy (or at least well off) if they succeeded. If they failed, they usually looked for another line of work (i.e. give up/sell out etc).
Robert, I'll retract that statement and go on the assumption that as he matures, Rodriguez will learn the concept but to this point all he's done is invested in a high school (might be college) ball park named after him.
Mick, It's not about what's personally better after a certain point. When you achieve a particular level where personally there's really not much gain left to be had in terms of financial well-being, you can forego the greed and instead contribute to the health of the game. And lets not forget that this game has given its players the ability to make a salary that enables them and the people they care about to enjoy a life with no question of financial security. The thought that there should be no ceiling on selfish earning is what has hurt baseball, the public sector and ultimately the entire world economy.
Mick, It's not about what's personally better after a certain point. When you achieve a particular level where personally there's really not much gain left to be had in terms of financial well-being, you can forego the greed and instead contribute to the health of the game. And lets not forget that this game has given its players the ability to make a salary that enables them and the people they care about to enjoy a life with no question of financial security. The thought that there should be no ceiling on selfish earning is what has hurt baseball, the public sector and ultimately the entire world economy.
Two points I wanted to make here. First, it is not at all difficult for me to believe that an agent could manipulate a player into taking a certain deal (ie the richest one). I'm not saying this is the case for A-Rod, but it certainly isn't out of the question. An agent is essentially a salesman. He has to sell a team on giving his player the highest possible contract, so why is it so hard to believe that he would attempt to sell a player on the team offering the most money? Obviously, it is ultimately up to the player to decide where he wants to play, and we shouldn't feel sorry for a player if he ends up regretting where he went, but it seems to me that many players are not quite sure about what exactly they want, and don't really know anything at all about the negotiation process. I could definitely see a confused, young baseball player being easily persuaded by a man posing as his friend, telling him all this great stuff about the organization offering the player the most.
The other thing I wanted to point out, is that regardless of how great A-Rod plays, the contract they gave him was a mistake. It was not as big a mistake as Van Poppel, and not nearly as big a mistake Park, but it was still a mistake. None of this is A-Rod's fault in my view. He's played as good, if not better than could reasonably be expected, but his deal is too long for too much. His deal isn't killing the Rangers, since he provides so much production, but that doesn't mean he's worth what they're paying him, even if he is the best player in the game. A team simply cannot afford to pay one player a quarter of the team payroll.
The other thing I wanted to point out, is that regardless of how great A-Rod plays, the contract they gave him was a mistake. It was not as big a mistake as Van Poppel, and not nearly as big a mistake Park, but it was still a mistake. None of this is A-Rod's fault in my view. He's played as good, if not better than could reasonably be expected, but his deal is too long for too much. His deal isn't killing the Rangers, since he provides so much production, but that doesn't mean he's worth what they're paying him, even if he is the best player in the game. A team simply cannot afford to pay one player a quarter of the team payroll.
SAN DIEGO -- Rod Beck will be back with the San Diego Padres in 2004, this time as Trevor Hoffman's setup man, after agreeing Saturday to a one-year deal worth a guaranteed $1.85 million.
Anyone else think a 1 year/1.5 million dollar deal from the Jays, with a guarantee to start the year as closer, would have both been worth it from the Jays standpoint and accepted by Mr. Beck? He says his goal is 300 career saves (he is 14 short) so he coulda have reached it this year in T-O but he might not in SD. I was also thinking that he'd take a one year job as a closer with a decent team, to put up big save numbers and get big money next season. Of course, the Colorado offer puts a damper on my theory, but what pitcher really wants to pitch there (and who says they're a decent team)? Especially an aging one looking to prove his comeback wasn't a fluke.
I don't think Rod Beck is an asset at this point - good for bullpen filler at this point.
I wouldn't want Beck either. The last time the Jays invested in an aging closer we got burned pretty badly. Remember the Randy Myers fiasco?
Anyways I wanted to post about something I heard last night. Seems the Expos have offered Vlad Guerrero a 5 yr deal worth over 70 Mil. The contract is heavily backloaded. In fact Vlad would make less money in the first year of the contract then he did last season!
This got me thinking about the Blue Jays and well other teams as well. I don't like to come across as a hardliner against player agents and really i'm not so I was thinking that backloaded contracts should be the norm rather than the exception. Of course I will defer to the excellent minds that regularly post here :D
I think that the Jays should offer Roy Halladay and Carlos Delgado incentive laden heavily backloaded contracts for the reason that by the time you get into the big money years the Jays SHOULD be contenders and a hot ticket in town. OTOH it would make trading them down the road nearly impossible so JP would have to be fairly confident that his plan would work.
I know that backloaded contracts can be an albatross, just look at Griffey in Cincy but if it's done right and given to players with a huge upside than I see backloaded contracts as a good thing. I'm not saying that we should give everybody those kind of contracts but it should be considered when dealing with franchise players.
Opinions?
Anyways I wanted to post about something I heard last night. Seems the Expos have offered Vlad Guerrero a 5 yr deal worth over 70 Mil. The contract is heavily backloaded. In fact Vlad would make less money in the first year of the contract then he did last season!
This got me thinking about the Blue Jays and well other teams as well. I don't like to come across as a hardliner against player agents and really i'm not so I was thinking that backloaded contracts should be the norm rather than the exception. Of course I will defer to the excellent minds that regularly post here :D
I think that the Jays should offer Roy Halladay and Carlos Delgado incentive laden heavily backloaded contracts for the reason that by the time you get into the big money years the Jays SHOULD be contenders and a hot ticket in town. OTOH it would make trading them down the road nearly impossible so JP would have to be fairly confident that his plan would work.
I know that backloaded contracts can be an albatross, just look at Griffey in Cincy but if it's done right and given to players with a huge upside than I see backloaded contracts as a good thing. I'm not saying that we should give everybody those kind of contracts but it should be considered when dealing with franchise players.
Opinions?
Beck and Myers is a little different, I think. Beck is coming off of an absolutley dominant half season or so, and would only be signed to a one year deal for between 1 and 2 million. I don't think that's comparable to the Myers situation. I can see someone saying he isn't much of an asset anymore (for one year on the cheap, I disagree), but I don't think that comparing him to Myers is fair.
Sportsman,
Personally, I can't say I agree with you about backloaded contracts in general, and most definitely not in our situation. Gambling that there will be more money available in the future is always a bad idea and backloading/deferring money is only shooting yourself in the foot later on. Maybe if we wanted to make a serious run at things right now and needed the payroll space to pick up the last few pieces of the puzzle. But what do we need the payroll space for right now? This team is not at it's peak yet, we're still very much in a building phase. If we contend this year then great, but the team will be at it's best in '05, '06, '07...
Any half-assed attempt we make to load up now and try to contend with the Yanks and Bosox by spending money is doomed to fail. Not only would we have to pay Halladay and Delgado more money than we should be later on, but Hinske, Wells, Hudson, Phelps will all start making significant coin in a few years too. If the extra money is not there then we have to start dumping guys and start the rebuilding all over again. If the money is there, then we're still pretty much stuck with what we've got with no extra room to pick up the extra pieces. If we bite the bullet now, we're still in a position to contend in a couple years if the extra money is not there. If the extra money is there then we can go out and land the extra pieces.
Personally, I can't say I agree with you about backloaded contracts in general, and most definitely not in our situation. Gambling that there will be more money available in the future is always a bad idea and backloading/deferring money is only shooting yourself in the foot later on. Maybe if we wanted to make a serious run at things right now and needed the payroll space to pick up the last few pieces of the puzzle. But what do we need the payroll space for right now? This team is not at it's peak yet, we're still very much in a building phase. If we contend this year then great, but the team will be at it's best in '05, '06, '07...
Any half-assed attempt we make to load up now and try to contend with the Yanks and Bosox by spending money is doomed to fail. Not only would we have to pay Halladay and Delgado more money than we should be later on, but Hinske, Wells, Hudson, Phelps will all start making significant coin in a few years too. If the extra money is not there then we have to start dumping guys and start the rebuilding all over again. If the money is there, then we're still pretty much stuck with what we've got with no extra room to pick up the extra pieces. If we bite the bullet now, we're still in a position to contend in a couple years if the extra money is not there. If the extra money is there then we can go out and land the extra pieces.
I'm not sure it was mentioned, but Chris Carpenter signed(scroll down)an incentive laden contract with the Card's last week.
As well Jeff Blairhas the Jays offering arbitration to Bordick in case he "un-retires" and presumably attempts to join the O's.
As well Jeff Blairhas the Jays offering arbitration to Bordick in case he "un-retires" and presumably attempts to join the O's.
So, Myers season before coming North was a lot more dominant than I thought (ERA + of 291) but Beck's 2003 was pretty nice too (221). the difference, is the required commitment. The Jays were on the hook for more than one year at pretty big money for Myers, if I remember correctly (correct me if I'm wrong... it certainly wouldn't be the first time). With Beck, he could have been cheap compared to other closers and set-up men (and mop-up men if you're the Yankees) and only on the hook for one year. If he had a Myers-Like breakdown, the Jays would be off the hook in a hurry. Anyways, this is only one marginally-well-informed fans opinion :-D
Ryan01 yeah it's a gamble but sometimes you gotta gamble to make a run to the top. Everyone was against against Pat Gillick's biggest gamble (the Mcgriff-Fernandez for Alomar-Carter trade) and look what it gave the Jays a couple or so years later. Granted that was a totally different situation to what we have now.
Still if you're looking at 05-07 as being the big years then you could give a Roy Halladay a backloaded deal that would see him making comparable money to what he's making now for the next 2 seasons (04-05) and the big money kicks in when we should be contending. (06-07)
I do see your point that it could very well sink our efforts to make a run to the playoffs in those years. It was just a thought that came to mind in light of the Guerrero offer from MTL.
Still if you're looking at 05-07 as being the big years then you could give a Roy Halladay a backloaded deal that would see him making comparable money to what he's making now for the next 2 seasons (04-05) and the big money kicks in when we should be contending. (06-07)
I do see your point that it could very well sink our efforts to make a run to the playoffs in those years. It was just a thought that came to mind in light of the Guerrero offer from MTL.
Sportsman - gambling on there being more money in the future is exactly what got the Rangers into the mess they're in now. Ryan01 is dead on when it comes to deferred money - think of it like a credit card with a big limit, giving you the illusion that you're doing well financially when you're actually up a creek.
And, players with bargaining power NEVER accept contracts with huge incentive clauses - why take "maybe 20 million, maybe 7" when you can get 15 for sure? These guys are very aware of being one torn ligament away from unemployment. It's all about the guaranteed money.
And, players with bargaining power NEVER accept contracts with huge incentive clauses - why take "maybe 20 million, maybe 7" when you can get 15 for sure? These guys are very aware of being one torn ligament away from unemployment. It's all about the guaranteed money.
Cubs inked Grudzielanek ... I don't have the terms
About $2.5 million for Grud.
Apparently the Rangers offered arbitration to Thomson.
Apparently the Rangers offered arbitration to Thomson.
Arizona has apparently declined to offer arbitration to Miguel Batista.
From Rotoworld:
Miguel Batista - S - Arizona Diamondbacks Dec 7
Diamondbacks declined to offer arbitration to RHP Miguel Batista, LHP Mike Myers, OF Raul Mondesi and broadcaster Mark Grace.
Batista wanted quite a bit more than the Diamondbacks were willing to give him. He could go to the Mets, Blue Jays or Rangers. Mondesi was never a candidate for arbitration. He made $12 million last season.
Good to see that it mentioned the Jays.
Miguel Batista - S - Arizona Diamondbacks Dec 7
Diamondbacks declined to offer arbitration to RHP Miguel Batista, LHP Mike Myers, OF Raul Mondesi and broadcaster Mark Grace.
Batista wanted quite a bit more than the Diamondbacks were willing to give him. He could go to the Mets, Blue Jays or Rangers. Mondesi was never a candidate for arbitration. He made $12 million last season.
Good to see that it mentioned the Jays.
The D-Backs did not offer arbitration to Miguel Batista afterall which should make him one of the more attractive starting pitching options out there. Mike Myers was also let go.
Chad Fox will return to the Marlins on a one year deal, not sure of the amount but it's likely in the $1 million range.
Scott Erickson and Kerry Ligtenberg were cut loose by the Orioles.
The Cubs let go Alfonseca, Estes, Guthrie, and Veres.
The White Sox appear set to offer arbitration to Scott Sullivan but we heard the same thing about the D-Backs and Batista. It's not known yet whether Colon, Alomar, and Graffanino will get an offer.
Van Poppel was the Reds' only free agent and was cut loose.
Ron Villone, Rick White, and Brian Moehler were let go by the Astros.
A number of Royals are expected to go without arbitration offers including Grimsley, Mayne, Tucker, Rondell White, DeFelice, Lima, and Levine.
No word yet on what will happen to Wilson Alvarez in LA.
The Brewers cut loose Royce Clayton, Glendon Rusch (potential minor league signing), and Todd Ritchie (bad shoulder).
The Twins must still make decisions on Stewart, Guadardo, Rogers, Reed, Fetters, and Gomez. None except Guadardo and possibly Stewart may get offers.
The Mets cut loose Astacio and are still talking to John Franco.
The A's will offer arbitration to Tejada, Foulke, and Rincon. Guillen and Sparks are gone.
The Giants signed Snow and Michael Tucker whom the Royals weren't going to offer arbitration to...Tucker is a B player so the Giants could potentially owe their first round pick for signing him before the midnight deadline. One has to assume though that the Royals officially declined arbitration on Tucker already which allowed the Giants to go after him.
Seattle has signed up Hasegawa to a two year $6.3 million contract. They'll soon have to announce their decisions on Cameron, Benitez, Sanchez, McLemore, Mabry, and Rhodes. I expect only Rhodes to receive an arbitration offer.
The only Rays player of possible interest to the Jays might be Rey Ordonez who won't get an offer.
Chad Fox will return to the Marlins on a one year deal, not sure of the amount but it's likely in the $1 million range.
Scott Erickson and Kerry Ligtenberg were cut loose by the Orioles.
The Cubs let go Alfonseca, Estes, Guthrie, and Veres.
The White Sox appear set to offer arbitration to Scott Sullivan but we heard the same thing about the D-Backs and Batista. It's not known yet whether Colon, Alomar, and Graffanino will get an offer.
Van Poppel was the Reds' only free agent and was cut loose.
Ron Villone, Rick White, and Brian Moehler were let go by the Astros.
A number of Royals are expected to go without arbitration offers including Grimsley, Mayne, Tucker, Rondell White, DeFelice, Lima, and Levine.
No word yet on what will happen to Wilson Alvarez in LA.
The Brewers cut loose Royce Clayton, Glendon Rusch (potential minor league signing), and Todd Ritchie (bad shoulder).
The Twins must still make decisions on Stewart, Guadardo, Rogers, Reed, Fetters, and Gomez. None except Guadardo and possibly Stewart may get offers.
The Mets cut loose Astacio and are still talking to John Franco.
The A's will offer arbitration to Tejada, Foulke, and Rincon. Guillen and Sparks are gone.
The Giants signed Snow and Michael Tucker whom the Royals weren't going to offer arbitration to...Tucker is a B player so the Giants could potentially owe their first round pick for signing him before the midnight deadline. One has to assume though that the Royals officially declined arbitration on Tucker already which allowed the Giants to go after him.
Seattle has signed up Hasegawa to a two year $6.3 million contract. They'll soon have to announce their decisions on Cameron, Benitez, Sanchez, McLemore, Mabry, and Rhodes. I expect only Rhodes to receive an arbitration offer.
The only Rays player of possible interest to the Jays might be Rey Ordonez who won't get an offer.
Peter Gammons reports that Kaz Matsui will announce tomorrow that he will sign a 3 year deal with the Mets worth $6.7 Million annually.
The Royals agreed with Grimsley to a one year deal.
http://www.scottlucas.com
To add to R Billie's comments, the Rangers will offer arbitration to John Thomson but have cut loose Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez and Ismael Valdes.
To add to R Billie's comments, the Rangers will offer arbitration to John Thomson but have cut loose Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez and Ismael Valdes.
http://www.scottlucas.com
Shannon Stewart, 3 years, $18 million
Shannon Stewart, 3 years, $18 million
The Marlins lose Ivan Rodriguez as an uncompensated free agent.
The Yankees offer Pettitte and Wells arbitration while Kaz Matsui signing with the Mets is pretty much official.
The Yankees offer Pettitte and Wells arbitration while Kaz Matsui signing with the Mets is pretty much official.
Rhodes did not receive an arbitration offer, the only play who did from Seattle was Pat Borders. As well in Seattle, Randy Winn has agreed to play Center Field so Ibaniez can have Left.
LA has offered Arb to Alvarez and Quantrill but not Brian Jordan, Ricky Henderson, Fred McGriff or Andy Ashby. They also resigned Ventura for $1.2M next season.
LA has offered Arb to Alvarez and Quantrill but not Brian Jordan, Ricky Henderson, Fred McGriff or Andy Ashby. They also resigned Ventura for $1.2M next season.
I hope the Jays actively pursue Rhodes. I think he'd make a great closer assuming he recovers from his struggles this year. His ratios looked solid.
Signing Batista, Rhodes, and Benitez/Ligtenberg would almost be an ideal outcome.
Signing Batista, Rhodes, and Benitez/Ligtenberg would almost be an ideal outcome.
In an interesting move, the Phillies have offered arbitration to Kevin Millwood. I hope they're prepared to have him for another year. Apparently money really is no object for them as they likely made this move just to keep him away from the Braves.
The Giants did not offer arbitration to Aurilia, Ponson or Worrell... three intriguing possibilities for the Jays.
Colon and Tom Gordon get arbitration from the ChiSox...The White Sox declined to offer arbitration to Roberto Alomar, Carl Everett, Tony Graffanino and Scott Sullivan.
The Phillies also offered arbitration to Dan Plesac. They didn't offer it to Jose Mesa, Kelly Stinnett, Turk Wendell, Terry Adams and Mike Williams. Sunday, the Phillies also signed backup catcher Todd Pratt to a one-year, $875,000 contract.
The Phillies also offered arbitration to Dan Plesac. They didn't offer it to Jose Mesa, Kelly Stinnett, Turk Wendell, Terry Adams and Mike Williams. Sunday, the Phillies also signed backup catcher Todd Pratt to a one-year, $875,000 contract.
Braves cut loose Maddux, Sheffield, Javy Lopez, Kent Mercker, Darren Holmes, Shane Reynolds Roberto Hernandez, Matt Franco and Darren Bragg.
They only offered arb to Julio Franco.
They only offered arb to Julio Franco.
It's absolutely official now, Kaz Mat has decided that he'll join the Metropolitans for $20 Million over 3 years. The Mets also offered arbitration to captain John Franco but not to Pedro Astacio, Jay Bell or Tony Clark
...Looks like the market for second basemen is getting a bit more crowded now. Boston has more selection and won't have to give up anything in exchange.
Anyone care to venture a guess on Aurillia's asking/taking price? How about Astacio? Astacio had an awful 03 season and had to cut it short for surgery. He's pitched decently in the past so as damaged goods, he might be a relatively low-cost option (but going from $7M to 1.5M insentive based contract probably wouldn't sit well with him). He's got a high ERA (career 4.50+) but a pretty good K/BB rate (career 2.35).
Also just off the wire, Boston did not offer arbitration to any of the following: Todd Walker, John Burkett, Jeff Suppan, Todd Jones Robert Person or Bill Haselman.
...Looks like the market for second basemen is getting a bit more crowded now. Boston has more selection and won't have to give up anything in exchange.
Anyone care to venture a guess on Aurillia's asking/taking price? How about Astacio? Astacio had an awful 03 season and had to cut it short for surgery. He's pitched decently in the past so as damaged goods, he might be a relatively low-cost option (but going from $7M to 1.5M insentive based contract probably wouldn't sit well with him). He's got a high ERA (career 4.50+) but a pretty good K/BB rate (career 2.35).
Also just off the wire, Boston did not offer arbitration to any of the following: Todd Walker, John Burkett, Jeff Suppan, Todd Jones Robert Person or Bill Haselman.
On top of the above mentioned, the Giants also declined to give arb to Marvin Benard, Jose Cruz, Jr., Andres Galarraga, Sidney Ponson, Benito Santiago and infielder Eric Young.
Tampa Bay Devil Rays did not offer salary arbitration to five of players who became free agents: Travis Lee (1B), Ben Grieve(OF), Rey Ordonez(SS), Al Martin(OF) and Terry Shumpert(Util).
Adding to R Billie's Yankee's update...Ruben Sierra was signed for 1 year @ $1M, Gabe White and John Flaherty were offered salary arbitration and Jeff Nelson and Antonio Osuna were also given their unconditional walking papers. No arbitration was offered to Clemons either.
The Florida Marlins have signed Chad Fox for 1 year @ 1.2M, declined to make arb offers to both Helling and Hollandsworth, and have until Dec. 20th (why do they have until the 20th?) to offer arb to the following: Mike Redmond, Juan Encarnacion, Alex Gonzalez, Carl Pavano, Brad Penny, Mark Redman and Michael Tejera.
The Pirates also declined arbitration with Reggie Sanders, Matt Stairs and Julian Tavarez.
The Pirates also declined arbitration with Reggie Sanders, Matt Stairs and Julian Tavarez.
The Dec 7th deadline is only for free agent eligible players. The Dec 20th deadline is for arbitration eligible players. The Jays have the same flexibility with Woodward, Politte, Miller, and Walker.
Politte and Walker are potential non-tenders if the Jays find themselves able to sign enough of the quality pitchers on the market.
Politte and Walker are potential non-tenders if the Jays find themselves able to sign enough of the quality pitchers on the market.
Instead of continually posting, I've collected all of the players who were not offered salary arbitration by the deadline. Strutze and Lidle are the only two Jays on the list. There were a couple of clubs who didn't have the names of their arbitration decisions on either the ESPN newswire or their official sites (I believe they were Cleveland and Minnestoa). In total there are 100 names on this list.
Miguel Batista
Scott Erickson
Kerry Ligtenberg
Antonio Alfonseca
Shawn Estes
Mark Guthrie
Dave Veres
Doug Glanville
Kenny Lofton
Troy O'Leary
Tony Womack
Eric Karros
Van Poppel
Ron Villone
Rick White
Brian Moehler
Wilson Alvarez
Royce Clayton
Glendon Rusch
Todd Ritchie
Vlad Guerrero
Rafael Palmeiro
Juan Gonzalez
Ismael Valdes
Ivan Rodriguez
Arthur Rhodes
Brian Jordan
Ricky Henderson
Fred McGriff
Andy Ashby
Roberto Alomar
Carl Everett
Tony Graffanino
Scott Sullivan
Jose Mesa
Kelly Stinnett
Turk Wendell
Terry Adams
Mike Williams
Greg Maddux
Gary Sheffield
Javy Lopez
Kent Mercker
Darren Holmes
Shane Reynolds
Roberto Hernandez
Matt Franco
Darren Bragg
Pedro Astacio
Jay Bell
Tony Clark
Todd Walker
John Burkett
Jeff Suppan
Todd Jones
Robert Person
Bill Haselman
Marvin Benard
Jose Cruz, Jr.
Andres Galarraga
Sidney Ponson
Benito Santiago
Eric Young
Rich Aurilia
Travis Lee
Ben Grieve
Rey Ordonez
Al Martin
Terry Shumpert
Jeff Nelson
Antonio Osuna
Roger Clemons (Retired)
Rick Helling
Todd Hollandsworth
Reggie Sanders
Matt Stairs
Julian Tavarez
Armando Benitez
John Mabry
Mark McLemore
Rey Sanchez
Keith Osik
Jose Guillen
Steve Sparks
Tanyon Sturtze
Cory Lidle
Eric Owens
Scott Spiezio
Mike Myers
Raul Mondesi
Mark Grace (Retired)
Tony Batista
Albert Belle
Hector Carrasco
Deivi Cruz
Brook Fordyce
Greg Norton
Mark Sweeney
Darren Oliver
Chris Stynes
Gregg Zaun
Shane Halter
Miguel Batista
Scott Erickson
Kerry Ligtenberg
Antonio Alfonseca
Shawn Estes
Mark Guthrie
Dave Veres
Doug Glanville
Kenny Lofton
Troy O'Leary
Tony Womack
Eric Karros
Van Poppel
Ron Villone
Rick White
Brian Moehler
Wilson Alvarez
Royce Clayton
Glendon Rusch
Todd Ritchie
Vlad Guerrero
Rafael Palmeiro
Juan Gonzalez
Ismael Valdes
Ivan Rodriguez
Arthur Rhodes
Brian Jordan
Ricky Henderson
Fred McGriff
Andy Ashby
Roberto Alomar
Carl Everett
Tony Graffanino
Scott Sullivan
Jose Mesa
Kelly Stinnett
Turk Wendell
Terry Adams
Mike Williams
Greg Maddux
Gary Sheffield
Javy Lopez
Kent Mercker
Darren Holmes
Shane Reynolds
Roberto Hernandez
Matt Franco
Darren Bragg
Pedro Astacio
Jay Bell
Tony Clark
Todd Walker
John Burkett
Jeff Suppan
Todd Jones
Robert Person
Bill Haselman
Marvin Benard
Jose Cruz, Jr.
Andres Galarraga
Sidney Ponson
Benito Santiago
Eric Young
Rich Aurilia
Travis Lee
Ben Grieve
Rey Ordonez
Al Martin
Terry Shumpert
Jeff Nelson
Antonio Osuna
Roger Clemons (Retired)
Rick Helling
Todd Hollandsworth
Reggie Sanders
Matt Stairs
Julian Tavarez
Armando Benitez
John Mabry
Mark McLemore
Rey Sanchez
Keith Osik
Jose Guillen
Steve Sparks
Tanyon Sturtze
Cory Lidle
Eric Owens
Scott Spiezio
Mike Myers
Raul Mondesi
Mark Grace (Retired)
Tony Batista
Albert Belle
Hector Carrasco
Deivi Cruz
Brook Fordyce
Greg Norton
Mark Sweeney
Darren Oliver
Chris Stynes
Gregg Zaun
Shane Halter
Let's sign Miguel Batista, Kerry Ligtenberg, Arthur Rhodes or Armando Benitez and just for the media's sake, Ricky Henderson... if only it was that easy *sigh*. Seriously , though, I've changed my mind on the "ideal plan" more times than I can count this offseason, but as it stands there it is.
I'm a long time reader but this is my first post. I can't believe that I'm breaking this story to this site. I guess I'm the only guy that just watched on ESPN (I have satellite) that the JAYS HAVE JUST INKED BATISTA. GAMMONS REPORTED IT BUT HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW THE TERMS YET. It is also on the ticker on ESPN NEWS.
Can't wait to see MIGGY in a jays uni....
Yoni B
Can't wait to see MIGGY in a jays uni....
Yoni B
I'm a long time reader but this is my first post. I can't believe that I'm breaking this story to this site. I guess I'm the only guy that just watched on ESPN (I have satellite) that the JAYS HAVE JUST INKED BATISTA. GAMMONS REPORTED IT BUT HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW THE TERMS YET. It is also on the ticker on ESPN NEWS.
Can't wait to see MIGGY in a jays uni....
Yoni B
Can't wait to see MIGGY in a jays uni....
Yoni B
No sweat, Yoni. Thanks. There's a new thread open to discuss this, or to await confirmation from Mike Wilner, who is in New Orleans.